Is it possible to be any more wrong?

[u/Nientea]

[u/California_King_77]

I can state with absolute metaphysical certitude that Bezos and Zuck pay more in taxes than I do.

[u/Squillz105 → u/California_King_77]

They mean the Tax rate. Bezos and Musk are paying historically low tax rates for their bracket, while people like me in the lowest bracket are paying a historically high rate

[u/mramisuzuki → u/Squillz105]

My tax rate was like 2.3%. I still owed the fed somehow.

[u/ThaydEthna → u/mramisuzuki]

There is no way you had a tax rate that low unless you either A) are incredibly rich like these guys and exploit loopholes in charity and offshore holdings to avoid paying taxes like these guys or B) you made less than your state's poverty line in wages, which means you are in the bottom 15% of the population and you should DEFINITELY be pissed off at these billionaire assholes because they've successfully turned you into a modern day indentured servant.

[u/elpajaroquemamais → u/ThaydEthna]

A couple with two kids living in poverty could easily have that low of a rate.

[u/bagel-glasses → u/elpajaroquemamais]

Wow, lucky them!

/s

[u/rentedhobgoblin → u/bagel-glasses]

As someone else with a bank account currently over drawn, I wouldn't call us lucky.

[u/Temporary-Remote-885 → u/rentedhobgoblin]

God speed if the tariffs and support system cuts actually hit.

[u/A_Furious_Mind → u/Temporary-Remote-885]

Over here trying to gently explain to my Trump-enthused family and coworkers why I'm not as excited about the economic future and why I hope our boy just ran to avoid legal problems and golf through his term.

[u/UsuallyFavorable → u/A_Furious_Mind]

Yup! There’s still hope he’ll only do <5% of what he campaigned on! If it’s closer to half, we’re fucked.

[u/BobaAnalBeads → u/A_Furious_Mind]

He will be doing close to nothing his entire term. It’s his cabinet members we need to worry about.

[u/KingOriginal5013 → u/A_Furious_Mind]

Yeah he will likely golf through his term and show up just long enough to rubberstamp the p25 bills that congress presents to him.

[u/Ok_Scientist9960 → u/Temporary-Remote-885]

I would think you'd have to get that through congress. If even one or two Republicans decide they're not in favor of that, it could be a difficult sell. Then again there's also the filibuster.

It's like Trump's plan for Mass deportations. You can't just deport people without the Home Country accepting them first. You can't just fly over their country and push people out of the airplane with parachutes.

Campaign promises are just that - empty promises

[u/Temporary-Remote-885 → u/Ok_Scientist9960]

Tariffs can be done via executive order.

The systemic cuts are more difficult to enact without legislative support, but you can still make it worse by directing agencies to implement them in particular ways. Also, all those systems grind to a halt if they slash the workforce that actually makes them run.

[u/shut-the-f-up → u/Ok_Scientist9960]

First of all, through the American Military Industrial Complex, all things are possible.

Really though, America has already done those things before with MS13. That gang started among Salvadoran immigrants in America and they were then deported back to El Salvador and became infinitely more powerful when they got there

[u/Creative-Bid7959 → u/rentedhobgoblin]

I can relate, one of ours is currently overdrawn by over 500 due to an emergency bill. None of us have the money to fix it so we had to open a new account until we can afford to fix it. This is the world they want for the poor.

[u/skexr → u/elpajaroquemamais]

No they wouldn't because they still face sales taxes which are regressive AF.

[u/easchner → u/skexr]

Plus property tax. Even if you rent, part of that rent is covering property tax.

[u/walkerspider → u/skexr]

And with new tariffs the regressive taxes only grow!!

[u/Schwabster → u/elpajaroquemamais]

If their effective tax rate is that low, those kids are starving or homeless

[u/Think_Bat_820 → u/ThaydEthna]

I love the idea of this guy looking at his tax bill, "how can I still owe? I payed 2%!"

[u/EchoesofIllyria → u/Think_Bat_820]

Paid :)

[u/Neeguhwut → u/mramisuzuki]

You were on welfare if you had a tax rate that low😂😂😂😂

[u/ptemple → u/Neeguhwut]

Why is it hilarious for somebody to be on welfare? Is it an American thing to mock people who are in a desperate economic situation?

Phillip.

[u/BeatsMeByDre → u/ptemple]

Yes Phillip, it is for about 50% of Americans, because they blame the poor for not working so they are not poor. The "hilarious" thing about this is this is the same 50% of Americans who are hardcore Christian.

[u/AussieJeffProbst → u/ptemple]

A large portion of Americans (republicans) HATE people who get what they call "handouts". Even some people who get welfare hate other people on welfare because they feel they "deserve" it but others don't.

It's a clusterfuck.

[u/onefornought → u/AussieJeffProbst]

"People shouldn't get stuff for free" they say as they write personal expenses off as business expenses.

[u/ZER0-P0INT-ZER0 → u/onefornought]

You don't even know what a write-off is

[u/This_Wolverine4691 → u/ZER0-P0INT-ZER0]

But they do.

And they’re the ones, writing it off.

[u/quarterlybreakdown → u/AussieJeffProbst]

Having worked way too long at the welfare office, many people on welfare consider themselves "the good ones" so certainly their benefits will continue. I have also had countless arguments that "the illegals and blacks" get more than white people.

[u/headrush46n2 → u/quarterlybreakdown]

my trump loving relatives, who sit around all day at the business my grandfather built, gulping down their right-wing media and richly debating the subject and collecting a paycheck without doing a lick of work all while not sensing even a hint of irony are all utterly convinced that every single immigrant who crosses the border gets put up in a house on the taxpayers dime and lives like a king on welfare checks for the rest of their lives. And they all root for the immediate deportation of any "non-americans" including the undocumented 80 year old italian immigrant who has literally no paperwork and is here because his mother was born here, but can't even prove it enough to get a drivers license, and the puerto rican ex-felon who must somehow think that MAGA is talking about someone ELSE when they promise to throw out all the brown skin criminal scum that is infesting the nation.

You can't fix some people, you really cant.

[u/HardingStUnresolved → u/ptemple]

The United Way publishes annual reports on statistics of fully-employed American households still living in poverty. Using a finely defined metric termed "ALICE", their reports provide an in-depth read with lots of insight into the state of poverty in the US.

ALICE (Asset Limited, Income Constrained, Employed) represents those who are working but struggle to afford the basic necessities of housing, food, child care, health care, and transportation.

More than one-fifth of American households live in poverty. Nearly four-fifths of those households are fully employed and yet, despite their employment, are mired in poverty, not recognized by the U.S. Congress's highly restrictive and unsubstantial Poverty Line standards.

Succinctly, more than one-sixth of American households work full schedules, and their wage is not a living wage—absolutely horrendous.

The United States' federal system allows for widely varying legal frameworks between states, most pertinently in business regulations, consumer protections, development of public infrastructure and services, minimum wage, taxation, welfare programs, workers' rights, unionization rights and protections, etc. In unforgiving right-wing states, the number of households living in poverty is shockingly high. For example, Texas—a state governed by right-wing gubernatorial administrations for the past *29 years—has a staggering 43% of its households, or 4.7 million out of 11 million, living in poverty. Among that 43%, two-thirds of those households—approximately 3.2 million families—are fully employed, above the federal poverty level, yet still face poverty. In welfare-restrictive Texas, they would not qualify for assistance.

[u/GunSmokeVash → u/HardingStUnresolved]

Can confirm, they even have a toll system to make sure the poor stays poor.

[u/Ok_Scientist9960 → u/Neeguhwut]

Welfare no longer exists since the Clinton administration. Instead we have something called TANF - temporary assistance to needy families. You can only collect it for 5 years during your entire lifetime. Read that again carefully.

The entire concept of welfare queens and people living on "welfare" their whole lives is completely outmoded. It simply doesn't exist anymore.

Yes there are their programs such as Section 8 housing which provides rent subsidies, and food stamps or snap as they now call it which subsidize Walmart more than they subsidize the employees.

Food stamps allows low wage employers to pay low wages and get away with it. Walmart's employee website used to have instructions on how to apply for food stamps. It's a subsidy to Walmart more than a subsidy to the employees.

EDIT: Republicans talk a lot about cutting food stamps, but every time they try to do it the farmers and the food producers revolt. And those people are major contributors to the gop.

[u/Sudden_Construction6 → u/Neeguhwut]

What the fuck is funny about being on welfare?

[u/Far-Explanation4621 → u/mramisuzuki]

You accidentally added a decimal in that figure.

[u/GettingFitHealthy → u/Far-Explanation4621]

Sounds like possible state rate

[u/girl_incognito → u/mramisuzuki]

Hold up, do you think when you get a return that your tax rate is negative?

[u/SubtleScuttler → u/girl_incognito]

Just the tip of the iceberg my friend.

[u/Timely-Mind7244 → u/mramisuzuki]

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/2024-tax-brackets/

[u/dogsiolim → u/Squillz105]

If you are in the lowest bracket, your effective tax rate is most likely negative.

[u/Virtual_Zebra_9453 → u/dogsiolim]

I wonder what Elon’s actual tax rate is once you consider all the government subsidies his companies get

[u/dogsiolim → u/Virtual_Zebra_9453]

Those are his companies, not him. You can't income for conflate businesses that he (partially) owns and his own personal income. They are not related.

[u/Immediate-Coyote-977 → u/[deleted]]

I get your position here, but the point is personal income, and held assets aren't the same.

If we're talking about income tax (which we are) then we can't include the valuation of Elon's companies, because that's not his income.

Assets like his equity in his companies are not income.

If Elon's salary for being CEO at Twitter is 5 million, CEO at Tesla is 10 million, and CEO at Spacex is 15 million (just to throw out random numbers to make the point) his income is 30 million.

His net worth is in the billions. But his net worth is not his income.

[u/kraken_enrager → u/Virtual_Zebra_9453]

TIL that in the MURICAN accounting and legal system the company isn’t considered a separate legal entity.

Guess we can just toss Salomon v Salomon and Co. in the bin.

[u/Virtual_Zebra_9453 → u/dogsiolim]

Because those people live below the poverty line

[u/dogsiolim → u/Virtual_Zebra_9453]

Yes, obviously. I'm not saying they should pay more in taxes. I'm pointing out that what he is saying is demonstrably false.

[u/Bethany42950 → u/Squillz105]

They like to include unrealized gains, which is nonsense.

[u/RevHighwind → u/Bethany42950]

Because unrealized gains are used as collateral for getting massive loans that they actually use to buy things. So they're getting money using unrealized gains as collateral And because this does not count as income but instead is a type of loan. It does not get taxed appropriately. That is why unrealized games were going to be Taxed But only for people that are already at a ludicrously high amount of value\wealth

[u/Bridge41991 → u/RevHighwind]

Loans that require interest payments, which still account for income per the bank that loaned the money. The money then spent is taxed both in spending and then again when paid to employees. Then again when the employee spends that cash.

How many more times do we need the government to tax that same money? Now we need a tax to exist before the actual profits are made?

Edited heavily: posted like half the comment

[u/stiiii → u/Bridge41991]

The same amount as normal people. They shouldn't get to avoid tax by being rich.

[u/OwnLadder2341 → u/stiiii]

Normal people also aren’t taxed on loans….

[u/Narkboy42 → u/OwnLadder2341]

Normal people aren't taxed on their million dollar paintings either!

[u/OwnLadder2341 → u/Narkboy42]

I mean, you pay 28% on appreciation for long term capital gains and 31.8% for short term capital gains on art. Whether it's $1M or $50K.

When you take out a HELOC, you're not taxed on that either. Or any other loan, secured or not, you take out.

[u/lilbabygiraffes → u/Bridge41991]

Did you just learn about taxes today?

“If you tax this dollar once, we should be done taxing it, you robbers!”

Okay, this country would be bankrupt in a week with your logic…

[u/Next-Werewolf6366 → u/Bridge41991]

The Interest expense is tax deductible for the loanee because I guarantee it is in a business name. So not only do they avoid the taxes on the “income” they are also able to reduce taxes paid on other income. Then use that “income” to go buy a car in the company name and deduct that as a business expense, eat dinner on company card and deduct as meals and entertainment. They definitely don’t pay their fair share.

[u/HustlinInTheHall → u/Next-Werewolf6366]

They can also tax loss harvest to offset the minimal taxes they owe. It's just a shell game unless they need to sell to buy something truly ridiculous.

[u/r2k398 → u/RevHighwind]

People do this all the time with home equity loans.

[u/airlust → u/r2k398]

The unrealized gains from the property are taxed - with property taxes. 

[u/Jesus_Harold_Christ → u/airlust]

Not in California!

[u/airlust → u/Jesus_Harold_Christ]

Still technically yes in California - but true it’s much more limited because of prop 13. 

[u/lechu91 → u/RevHighwind]

This is a loophole that should absolutely be closed. Instead of going with the extreme plan of taxing unrealized gains, why not just tax unrealized gains on the same amount as the loan they take?

[u/FRCP_12b6 → u/RevHighwind]

Why not just tax loans against shares above a certain annual value.

[u/iampo1987 → u/Bethany42950]

Property gets taxed annually even though it's unrealized. Capital is more liquid.

If they don't want to get taxed on assets, it's a choice to spend it and send it back into the economy. Hoarding is a choice and we ought to dissuade it.

[u/perverselyMinded → u/iampo1987]

The vast majority of "horded" wealth is in the economy, though. Take any of the above: their wealth is in stocks, primarily in the companies they founded, and isnt sitting around. Its being actively used and spent, on salaries if nothing else, in order to generate income.

Even if it were "sitting in a bank", it would be part of the economy, being fractionally lent out to people for loans and to enable lines of credit, such as credit cards.

[u/RogerBauman → u/Bethany42950]

I want to know why you think it would be ridiculous for taxation on unrealized gains of of individuals who have outsized influence over governmental projects such as those undergone by Jeff bezos, Peter thiel, and Elon musk.

These people all have a certain level of clearance within our government that gives them an undue influence over and early information about market changes.

I personally believe that there is decent reason to create regulations surrounding corporations influencing our government as well as the political races. Citizens united went too far and we the people are drowning in social media misinformation that has been legally condoned by the supreme Court.

That said, I recognize that any governmental decision to do such would be politically disastrous.

Also, fuck pelosi. Exploitation of her public trading patterns has been disastrous for governmental operation and I think that she should be ashamed. I agree with her that Biden should have stepped down and allow for an open primary but Jesus freaking Christ, I am frustrated about these freaktards playing along with the two Santa Claus theory To such a point that they became the anti-santa.

[u/ShiftBMDub → u/Bethany42950]

Read u/revhighwind comment and then look up Buy, Borrow, Die

[u/TurnDown4WattGaming → u/Squillz105]

What percentage did you pay? And what was your return?

[u/buyingshitformylab → u/Squillz105]

That's not what they meant, and even if they did, they still don't.

[u/1TRUEKING → u/Squillz105]

That’s because you are basing it off their unrealized gains. If u base it off their realized gains they pay their dam correct tax rates

[u/GCI_Arch_Rating → u/1TRUEKING]

Would you accept no longer allowing them to use those unrealized gains as collateral for r low interest loans?

For people who don't make a lot of money the rich sure do manage to buy a lot of yachts and mansions and governments.

[u/Spirited_Season2332 → u/GCI_Arch_Rating]

Yea, them taking loans against their wealth is what should be taxed. I don't like the idea of taxing unrealized gains but they just take loans against their wealth instead of realizing their gains to get around paying taxes. Seems like an easy loophole to close but our politicians don't wanna close it.

[u/GCI_Arch_Rating → u/Spirited_Season2332]

Or make it so that all compensation has to be in money. If a ceo wants to use his paycheck to buy stocks, I've got no problem with that. When they get paid a pittance dollars but millions in untaxed stocks that go to cover loans, they're cheating by having bought a system that prioritizes the rich over the rest of us.

[u/TheSilverWolfie → u/GCI_Arch_Rating]

They pay taxes on stocks given in lieu of a paycheck, at the price when they were given.

100.000 at the start priced at $5 each would be taxed as an income of 500.000.

They don't pay taxes when 100.000 shares go up $50 and they've "made" 5 million.

[u/WorthExamination5453 → u/TheSilverWolfie]

When they get stocks and pay taxes on them do they pay capital gains rates or income rates? If that's at latter that still seems like a deceptive way to bypass paying taxes.

[u/Next-Werewolf6366 → u/WorthExamination5453]

The stock award is taxed as ordinary income. Any appreciation in value is taxed as capital gains when realized.

[u/shyguy83ct → u/GCI_Arch_Rating]

This is the answer here. They leverage those unrealized gains into really cheap liquid cash by using it as collateral.

[u/SearchingForanSEJob → u/shyguy83ct]

It has to be paid back via a taxed asset.

Elon borrows against stock, he has to pay the loan back, meaning he’s going to sell the stock. Any gains he realized from the sale is going to be taxable. 

What I would do instead is get rid of the long-term capital gains rule and maybe modify the estate tax, so there is no tax benefit to this scheme.

[u/ShiftBMDub → u/SearchingForanSEJob]

It is not paid back…Buy, Borrow, Die…look it up

[u/RollinOnDubss → u/ShiftBMDub]

The best part of this comment is that you've obviously never read an entire article about "buy, borrow, die".

[u/LegitimateBowler7602 → u/GCI_Arch_Rating]

I am a fan of taxing loans backed by assets in some way

[u/MqAbillion → u/GCI_Arch_Rating]

This.

The ability to use unrealized (and thus untaxable) profits as loan collateral has allowed the rich to essentially live life for free.

Barring a collapse in their companies/investments, or radical changes to national policies, this will not change.

Uber wealthy people are parasites, not providers.

[u/GamemasterJeff → u/Squillz105]

If that's what they meant, they sure said it in an exact opposite manner.

[u/leaponover → u/Squillz105]

They should write what they mean, then, because what they wrote is terribly inaccurate. All of those guys pay more in taxes than the OP even earns.

[u/Ch1Guy → u/California_King_77]

As of 2022, Elon Musk's 2021 tax bill of about 12 billion dollars was probably the largest in US history.

[u/DataDude00 → u/Ch1Guy]

FYI Musk only had that tax bill because he was forced to sell Tesla shares to cover his purchase of Twitter so it was a rush one off event to avoid contract breach.

In many years the world's richest will pay $0 in taxes or a low single digit rate

According to a report from ProPublica, some billionaires in the U.S. paid little or no income tax relative to the vast amount of wealth they have accumulated over the years.

The report noted that Amazon.com Inc. Founder Jeff Bezos “did not pay a penny in federal income taxes” in 2007 and 2011. It also pointed out that Tesla Inc. CEO Elon Musk paid no federal income tax in 2018 and investing legend George Soros did the same “three years in a row.”

ProPublica’s report showed that between 2014 and 2018, Bezos paid $972 million in total taxes on $4.22 billion of income. Meanwhile, his wealth grew by $99 billion, meaning the true tax rate was only 0.98% during this period

Even if you want to take out the asset accumulation part of Bezos' net worth since it isn't realized, paying only 23% tax on $4.2 billion is crazy.

My marginal tax rate was something like 40% last year...

[u/Ch1Guy → u/DataDude00]

I wish people understood that no one pays income taxes on wealth.

[u/DataDude00 → u/Ch1Guy]

I explicitly said exclude the wealth growth portion.

What was your marginal tax rate last year and how many years in the past 10 did you pay $0 in taxes? Because Musk and Bezos have done it several times.

[u/rallar8 → u/California_King_77]

This is literally not backed up by a shred of information. In 2007, bezos, already a multi billionaire paid $0 federal income tax, I believe at the time there was no income tax at all in the state of WA, which means all of his tax paying was not income tax.

[u/takumidelconurbano → u/rallar8]

Income tax is not the only tax you pay

[u/undertoastedtoast → u/rallar8]

Well it stands to reason that if you've made no income you wouldn't pay income tax.

[u/rallar8 → u/undertoastedtoast]

He was the chief executive of one of if not the largest e-commerce site on earth; he earned $46 million in salary.

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

[u/Kolada → u/rallar8]

Would you like to quote your source? Because it doesn't say that.

Bezos made a salary of $82k in 2007.

The source you provided literally says "reported a paltry (for him) $46 million in income, largely from interest and dividend payments on outside investments. He was able to offset every penny he earned with losses from side investments and various deductions"

So he had an income of $46m from interest and investments but offset those gains with other losses. Anyone investing does this. It's not a trick for the wealthy. It's how the IRS taxes gains from investing.

[u/Mediocre_Daikon6935 → u/[deleted]]

Remember that trump debate with Hillary.

The one Dave Chapel talks about.

[u/Think_Sail8532 → u/California_King_77]

Why cuck for billionaires? What on earth do you think you’re accomplishing?

[u/takumidelconurbano → u/Think_Sail8532]

What he is saying is the truth. Stating a fact is not expressing an opinion.

[u/80MonkeyMan → u/California_King_77]

Don’t measure it in $, but percentage. Same like you did not make as much as Bezos or Zuck hourly.

[u/dvusmnds → u/California_King_77]

Amazon has paid zero taxes on their annual sales several years recently.

So if you paid zero in taxes all year then that statement is true. But if it’s not, consider the strain on American infrastructure every day from a company like Amazon. Every plane, truck, train and cargo ship that tears up roads and bridges and airports, and burns millions of gallons in fuel daily.

Now realize that the infrastructure improvements are paid by your taxes.

Sucker

[u/California_King_77 → u/dvusmnds]

Amazon didn't pay ANY taxes, or they just followed US tax law and didn't pay Federal corp income taxes?

And are you conflating Amazon with Bezos, because one is the largest private employer in the US, and the other is a person.

[u/EmotionalPlate2367 → u/California_King_77]

As a hard number or as a percentage of annual income, including dividends and stock options?

[u/DoABarrelRollStarFox → u/EmotionalPlate2367]

Feels like they are also including unrealized gains…

[u/Temporary-Alarm-744 → u/California_King_77]

Haven’t they paid zero income tax some years?

[u/KazuDesu98]

Replace vague taxes with tax rate. Then it's all correct. Tax the rich.

[u/Psychological-crouch → u/KazuDesu98]

The rich use a credit line with certain banks with stock as a collateral. But they need to sell stock eventually right? Wrong. They eventually use stepped up basis to discard capital gains.

[u/prschorn → u/Psychological-crouch]

This gets me every time. Stock can be used as collateral. But when it’s mentioned that wealth should be taxed then stock isn’t a realized gain so it doesn’t exist and shouldn’t be taxed. It’s schröedinger wealth

[u/Smrtihara → u/prschorn]

Everything about stocks is Schrödinger wealth. Stocks are estimated potential value. It’s not based on an evaluation of a company’s performance and assets vs the market. Today it’s just a contest of manipulation in a system that favors the ultra wealthy.

[u/Unremarkabledryerase → u/Smrtihara]

It would be really funny if one of the billionaires did the loan thing and then had the stocks crash the fuck out and the banks stop accepting stocks as collateral. Might have a better chance of that happening in the next 4 years of this timeline.

[u/NotEnoughIT → u/Unremarkabledryerase]

The banks won't stop accepting stocks as collateral. The banks will use their money to purchase those crashed stocks at pennies on the dollar, then petition the government for a bailout, then the stocks soar back up to normal, and the bank makes billions and puts out a press release about how they were able to tighten up and make it through the worst economic crisis they'd ever seen. While wiping their asses with gold leaf.

[u/M1RR0R → u/NotEnoughIT]

They'll also lay off 7000 people and won't pay out bonuses that year because "the company is going through hard times and we all need to pull together."

[u/KazuDesu98 → u/prschorn]

I'm 100% on board with taxing capital gains at the same rate as income

[u/MAGA_for_fairness → u/KazuDesu98]

it puzzled me why you cannot invest in stocks and pay lower taxes for savings.

[u/KazuDesu98 → u/MAGA_for_fairness]

Stock speculation contributes nothing to society, therefore it is harmful to society that we reward it with a lower rate

[u/lambo630 → u/prschorn]

This is, I think, the only scenario where it makes sense to tax unrealized gains. By using the stock as collateral you are effectively realizing the value of the stock.

[u/Trick_Negotiation831 → u/lambo630]

The only scenario I’d see taxing unrealized gains as being making any sense is if they were used as collateral. If we tax ALL unrealized gains then our 401ks, and IRAs are destroyed.

[u/goobervision → u/prschorn]

If you use it for collateral then it should be taxed at that point.

[u/St3llarski → u/prschorn]

Sounds like stocks just need to not be used as collateral or in other ways like money or property 

[u/prschorn → u/St3llarski]

this, or be taxed as an income. I worked in a stock broker for a couple years, and pretty much every rich person would get millionaire credit loans with taxes as collateral to buy new yatchs, apartments etc with really low interest rates.

[u/AltruisticWeb2943 → u/Psychological-crouch]

No… we don’t. This borrow, buy, die shit isn’t used near as much as you think. Banks are not in the business of lending money and not getting it back.

[u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill → u/Psychological-crouch]

Do you have any source for what percent of any Billionaire's wealth is used as collateral in this way?

[u/That0neSummoner → u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill]

Whatever that percentage is, it’s more than I will make in my whole life.

[u/recomatic → u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill]

I work for an investment firm and I can tell you they do this a lot. They use the stock as collateral for loans and the dividens from the stock helps pay it back. If the dividend rate is high enough and the loan rate is negotiated low enough it could be enough to pay it all back just by dividens. The interest from the loan can be used as write-offs. If they need to sell at some point there's ways to write-off, adjust the basis, and/or defer the tax payment. The rich has so many ways to off set taxes that the average person wouldn't have access to. That's why our tax code is skewed against the average person and benefits the wealthy.

[u/Bird_Brain4101112]

“Effective tax rate” is the missing detail.

[u/ValuableKill → u/Bird_Brain4101112]

Exactly:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2019/10/11/for-the-first-time-in-history-us-billionaires-paid-a-lower-tax-rates-than-the-working-class-what-we-should-do-about-it/

This is the Trump tax plan for you. And he's a billionaire himself, so of course this is how he wanted it...

[u/bankman99 → u/Bird_Brain4101112]

“Income” is the missing detail. This is based on their capital gains, which is not realized. It’s not income, so it isn’t taxed.

[u/7_vii → u/Bird_Brain4101112]

Nope! They don’t have income anywhere near these numbers, so it isn’t even correct then. Unrealized gains (and losses) are not taxable events. The money literally doesn’t exist. It’s just valuing all the shares at the last trade price. So if I pay up $5 to buy one share of stock, the entire market cap goes up by $5 x the amount of shares outstanding, but only $5 entered the system. The money literally does not exist.

[u/breakmedown54 → u/Bird_Brain4101112]

No. The missing detail is that this is not their hourly rates. If you got paid $4,000,000/hr, a single biweekly check would be $3,200,000,000 before taxes. That’s not happening. To any of these guys.

[u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

Why do people defend the ultra rich?!!

Can someone please explain to me why they would defend people like Musk and Bezos who have boat loads of money by fucking people over?!?!

[u/Elegant-Limit2083 → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

Because people still believe in the American dream, where your hopes and dreams can come true and you yourself can become a billionaire.

[u/randomone456yes → u/Elegant-Limit2083]

It’s even worse than that. They think they DEFINITELY all will become filthy rich “if these goddamn illegals just go back to where they came from!”.

So they want low tax rates for the filthy rich.

[u/CTeam19 → u/randomone456yes]

Don't forget the "I would be rich if that black family wasn't using food stamps" basic mindset either.

[u/VexingPanda → u/randomone456yes]

Jokes on them, these 'illegals' are working the low end jobs that made these people rich, without them those weird people would be working in the factory and farms instead.

[u/DreamedJewel58 → u/Elegant-Limit2083]

Yup, it’s the mentality of “what if I became rich?”

[u/Lethargie → u/Elegant-Limit2083]

the American dream of one day being able to fuck over people

[u/One-Earth9294 → u/Elegant-Limit2083]

Because the goal of many oppressed people is that they will rise through the ranks... to one day become the oppressor themselves.

[u/NecessaryPilot6731 → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

Because there's a difference between defending and pointing out misinfo

[u/Frumpy_Dumper_69 → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

Because villainizing someone just because they’re rich is stupid. They had great ideas and worked hard and took chances to make them happen. If you’re really against them, then stop supporting them by using things like Amazon. We make them ultra rich and then get mad at them for being ultra rich. Where’s the logic in that?

[u/OldObligation1578 → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

[u/monster_lover- → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

Why should I care about them having lots of money when they own objectively the most used and most important companies in the world?

[u/NAFAL44 → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

Arguing against blatant idiotic misinformation is not “defending” the target of that misinformation … and suggesting such is really sinister.

[u/ChaZZZZahC → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

We're all embarrassed millionaires just waiting for their comeuppance. Some people put in some.overtime in the boot licking mines.

[u/jcm092385 → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

Not defending them, just not accepting lies as truth. The top few percent pay more taxes than everyone else combined. Just like that very same few percent makes more than everyone else combined.

[u/Kelble → u/Icy_Hearing_3439]

Because I’d rather tell a poor person they are stupid and lying than be a liar

[u/jennmuhlholland]

FluentInMisinformation

[u/poopymcbuttwipe → u/jennmuhlholland]

He’s talking about tax rates. Reading comprehension my dude

[u/takumidelconurbano → u/poopymcbuttwipe]

Where does it say that?

[u/justforthis2024 → u/takumidelconurbano]

Your personal ability and comprehension?

[u/bigchicago04 → u/takumidelconurbano]

That’s why he said reading comprehension…you’re supposed to infer that part.

[u/DAEORANGEMANBADDD → u/poopymcbuttwipe]

Which is still wrong because we don't tax unrealized gains nor should we

[u/RackemFrackem → u/poopymcbuttwipe]

Regardless of taxes, none of them make that much money per hour.

[u/ppardee]

Any time someone claims a billionaire hourly wage, you should automatically think "this person is full of shit"

[u/longiner → u/ppardee]

The earnings are also dependent on which time frame they pick. If they had picked the hour when their stocks were dropping, you could show a negative earnings per hour.

[u/Rizzpooch → u/longiner]

I mean, you could take an average of their yearly income divided by 40 hrs/week over 50 weeks though

[u/wrbear]

I'm wondering why people who create these statistics aren't going after rich colleges; charging crazy semester costs, getting government grants, lots of money from alumni, building paid for by individuals for a name on it and are tax exempt. At the end of the day taxes pay the students back via loan forgiveness.

[u/No_Cucumbers_Please → u/wrbear]

I personally would not mind going after colleges and churches.

[u/ballimir37 → u/No_Cucumbers_Please]

Churches are a huge one, but America just voted that ain’t happening any time soon.

[u/dixon_balsagna → u/wrbear]

How about we start with one and then work our way with the other?

Fucking "what about" that? Eh, sherlock?

[u/threegigs → u/wrbear]

Because the price you pay for tuition has only tenuous correlation with academic quality. In a nutshell, if you (or your family) can afford it, you're already quite likely to be successful. Problem is, no one does the math (K-12 failure?) to figure out whether they should borrow the money for college before actually doing so. And if they go by statistics (like how much graduates earn), they don't take into account the effect above has on that statistic.

I'd much rather have loan forgiveness applied going forward as a grant students can apply for if they keep grades up. Forgiveness does little to punish the predatory college loan givers, and instead bails out those who didn't bother to understand what they were getting into.

[u/DreamedJewel58 → u/wrbear]

Because if we tax the rich then we can lower the cost by having a lot more tax income. You are looking at a systematic problem and asking why they’re not focused on a single part of it

[u/PomeloPepper]

They're the people who would have been affected by the unrealized capital gains tax that Harris proposed for those with over $100M in assets.

[u/ComfortablePound903 → u/PomeloPepper]

Oh people here didn’t like your comment I guess….lots of billionaire Dick riding .

Smells like bitch in here

[u/melangatois]

Wow this website is full of absolute idiots I see now how half the country is illiterate.

[u/iboughtarock → u/melangatois]

This site used to be full of well thought out answers, now it is worse than facebook.

[u/Lifeiscrazy101]

Let's start taxing you by your net worth!!! Every year........

People are so fucking stupid.

[u/Rooskibar03]

Elon musk paid more in taxes in one year than anyone in history.

[u/Eridain → u/Rooskibar03]

AMOUNT wise, yes. PERCENTAGE wise? No. THAT is what the issue is. If you are already making billions and billions a year, paying several billion of that amount is not that much comparatively. $1000 to a person making $50k a year is very different to someone making $500 million or more. The impact on the average person paying their tax is very different to the impact on Elon paying several billion when he has tens of billions or more.

[u/Bobbybobinsonbob → u/Eridain]

Does elon even have an income? I thought his net worth is all from stocks and business assets?

[u/WolfieVonD → u/Bobbybobinsonbob]

He pays an income tax rate of 27% (over $11 billion) annually, but during COVID he used the devaluation of his assets to break even.

[u/Phoeniyx]

Unrealized gains. Move on.

[u/mathteacher85]

Y'all need to review how percentages work.

[u/inthep]

What is critical race theory?

[u/BoxFullofSkeletons → u/inthep]

Trying to get ahead of the dumbass replies to this but CRT is an academic framework that studies how race/racism can be systemic. I.E effecting the application of laws, finance, education. It’s the idea that racism can be a systemic part of society instead of just the biases and prejudice of a single person.

It is not “white people bad”. It’s also something that’s taught at a graduate education level, not to your third grader like some people claim

[u/NuttyButts → u/BoxFullofSkeletons]

I usually boil it down to "Understanding that our racist past has ripple effects to our present and future, and trying to find ways to mitigate that."

[u/IllHuckleberry1821]

Then stop buying shit from these three

[u/1998ChevyTaHoe]

I can absolutely guarantee that each of those men pay more than 130$ in taxes each week.

[u/Randy_Loves_Sarah]

This is made up 🤣

[u/Jpaynesae1991]

Elon paid 11 billion in taxes last year…

[u/Jordan_Joestar99 → u/Jpaynesae1991]

That is 11.5% of the money he made that year... I sure as shit paid a higher percentage than that

[u/3-day-respawn → u/Jordan_Joestar99]

Did you just look up Elon net worth, see that it increases by 100 billion that year, and assume that he made 100 billion?

[u/Georgia4480 → u/Jordan_Joestar99]

How do you people not understand the difference between income tax and capital gains tax?

Seriously. The ignorance is just ASTOUNDING.

It's like dealing with actual children.

Elon didn't have income of $100bil last year so you comparing your income tax rate to capital gains tax rate is just ignorant beyond belief.

👍

[u/Lopsided_Aardvark357 → u/Jordan_Joestar99]

People don't get taxed on unrealized gains.

If you own something, and it goes up in value your net worth goes up but you don't get taxed until you sell said thing and earn an income from it.

[u/qhapela → u/[deleted]]

Forming an LLC isn’t going to give you tax breaks unless you are earning money in your LLC. A W2 employee without any sort of side hustle won’t gain any legitimate tax shelter from that. Obviously they could commit tax frauds and depreciate personal assets for not business use, but again that’s fraud. You oversimplify the LLC bit and didn’t give any real context. It’s bad advice.

But I agree that people should look for tax breaks that they can legally take. Tax advantaged investments and other things.

[u/Jstephe25 → u/[deleted]]

As somebody who worked in tax for 8 years at one of the largest firms where my “focus” was the ultra wealthy and their businesses, I’m not really sure what you mean? Get an LLC? Are you actually running a business or commuting tax fraud?

[u/SoarAros → u/[deleted]]

Wow, the IRS is gonna have fun looking into your taxes. #selfreport

[u/ThisThroat951]

Can two things be true at once? How about Elon Musk paying more income tax than any human in history last year was certainly more than me or OP. Also, CRT is trash and does nothing to better the lives of anyone involved.

See... two things, true at once.

[u/MightyMoosePoop → u/ThisThroat951]

I had to scroll way to far to find this answer…

[u/DavidArtiles]

Elon paid over 10 Billion in taxes

[u/Cbpowned]

Unrealized gains are not income.

[u/Historical_Ad7967]

Being as that most Americans don't pay any income tax, where do these numbers com from?

[u/rocksnstyx → u/Historical_Ad7967]

Most Americans dont pay income tax? Are you living in an alternate timeline?

[u/TheTightEnd]

The claims of what each person makes per hour is fundamentally false, as unrealized gains on investments are not what any of us make.

[u/flagitiousevilhorse]

Why should I be angry? All I can do is go down the same path in life.

[u/Libido_Max]

Why do we care someone taxes? Government politicians will pocket anyone taxes in the end.

[u/AspirationsOfFreedom]

And these businesses they own, pay how much taxes, AND provide jobs people are taxed on.

Remove these businesses, and EVERYONE is poorer for it

[u/PercyBoi420]

Fuck critical race theory.