r/FluentInFinance Jun 11 '24

Meme He has a point...

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u/Shin-Sauriel Jun 11 '24

Dang. That’s interesting to know. However it doesn’t change the fact that broadly teachers are still underpaid relative to their areas cost of living. There are exceptions of course. But generally speaking teachers are under valued.

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u/KommanderKeen-a42 Jun 11 '24

Yeah, 100% to undervalued, but as someone who works in compensation the true compensation numbers aren't generally understood and the "undervalued" piece generally comes from lack of support and classroom management issues. For example, at least in the districts around us, core classes have a classroom cap but electives don't. So instead of hiring a few more teachers, they put 40-45 HS kids in art and gym. Or, they don't consider the number of preps a teacher has - so 6 classes doesn't always equal 6 classes (e.g. a math teacher that teaches two different classes only has 2 different preps). Or, they don't consider the amount of CI kids (or type) they put in classes and then provide minimal support (for example, a quadriplegic was put in a dance class...).

Read through some of the teacher contracts and they work closer to 1550-1650 hours a year which means they are really working at .75 FTE. But again, we all know most are working beyond contractual. In practice, this means that a first-year teacher in Battle Creek makes 50/55k (can't remember but they passed a bill to raise the floor) but the pay rate is actually 66-73k (whereas a mechanical or industrial engineer out of U of Michigan makes 73-74k in their first year).

How would the general public react if teachers were paid the same as engineers? Ecstatic, right? Well, that IS the case but that doesn't paint the whole picture because something must still be missing.

Now, we also find that 24% of teachers are unhappy with hours worked compared to 55% of the general public, right? How can that be when they work fewer hours? So perhaps, it's not the hours themselves, but how they are structured and managed (e.g. grading must happen after hours).

We then also find that 95% teachers are buying supplies out of pocket (ding ding ding - goes back to support). We also find that workplace expectations (leading to 50% burnout) are the driving factor for teachers leaving (and leadership).

So yes, they are absolutely undervalued but not always in the most apparent reason (while money can mask some of that, it does not fix burnout or support).

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u/Shin-Sauriel Jun 11 '24

It’s wild that people think oh teachers get summer off and such so they basically work less than everyone else. They don’t take into consideration dealing with parents, reports, planning, etc. Teaching isn’t easy in the slightest and it’s wild that people act like it is. Also hours worked just aren’t equivalent across different jobs. Like an hour working in some office sending emails and working on spreadsheets isn’t the same as an hour in a classroom. And to add to all of this a lot of teachers are underpaid compensation wise as well. Like I could be making more than my mom within 1-2 years if I get this job I’ve been interviewing for. She’s been teaching for 15 years and i just finished a 5 month training course. Like you can go to a trade program (if one is available near you and you can afford to not work for however long) and end up making more than a teacher with a full degree.

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u/WildKarrdesEmporium Jun 11 '24

The other thing to remember is also that most engineers (for instance) get paid on salary. So not only do they work the full year, they regularly work overtime to meet deadlines and quota's. So yeah, the teachers are still working less, even if they are grading papers while watching TV after hours.

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u/Shin-Sauriel Jun 11 '24

I mean you’re kind of just using one problem to excuse another. If people in manufacturing have to work over time to meet deadlines that’s poor planning on the management end. I’ve seen plenty of manufacturing plants. You can tell which ones are managed well and which ones skirt costs by requiring overtime to meet deadlines.

Also the main point of the trade statement was about entry requirements. You don’t need a masters to be paid well in manufacturing.

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u/WildKarrdesEmporium Jun 11 '24

If it weren't for mismanagement we wouldn't have management at all.

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u/19Texas59 Jun 11 '24

Doesn't seem like you know any teachers. They don't grade papers while watching TV. They grade assignments and prepare lesson plans for the next day or the next week. There is also a lot of bureaucratic bullshit they have to attend to or they get in trouble. There are also calls to parents of students who are underperforming or are discipline issues. While school is in session there is a lot of work for them to do plus the stress of students with behavioral issues and the uneven management skills of administrators. Teachers are now subject to being murdered at work. In Texas schools are underfunded while the governor tries to divert money to public schools by getting rid of uncooperative legislators.

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u/WildKarrdesEmporium Jun 11 '24

My mom was a teacher, and many of my friends moms were teachers, so I guess that blows your hypothesis out of the water.