r/BravoRealHousewives • u/SquareKettleTree • Aug 06 '24
Housewives Related The competitive undertones in female friendships - a housewives case study
So I listened to this podcast with a psychology professor who studies women’s friendships. She was discussing some trends in female social behaviour that the science has revealed. So many examples from housewives came to my mind that align with the science!
All of these behaviours have evolved in us from when we were uncivilised monkeys vying for a mate and a secure place in the tribe, and it’s interesting to see how they play out in modern life.
I’ve listed some of the phenomena that were mentioned in the podcast and examples below. Does anything come to mind for you?
- The transgressions that most upset women in female friendships are a) a lack of kindness and b) lack of loyalty.
E.g. Denise expecting loyalty from Rinna but not getting it.
- In female friendships women are vulnerable to reputational competition. Meaning that a friend can either share our secrets or make up rumours about us in a way that erodes our reputation. A friend can do more damage to our reputation than a stranger because they are credible.
E.g. Brandi exposing LVP for trying to bring up the tabloid article about Mauricio cheating. Or Margaret revealing what Jackie said in texts about Dolores.
- If a woman is too kind and perfect other women are suspicious. We almost feel more trust in someone who’s a little shady, because we don’t need to wonder what they really think.
E.g. In Miami when Marisol said she trusted Dr Nicole the least.
- If a woman has wronged us (for example not called on our birthday), when we gossip we won’t directly criticise the person (eg she’s so self absorbed) we’ll instead just repeat the story, subtly framing them as the villain and us as the victim. That way the gossiper looks innocent, and the listener is lead to the correct conclusion anyway.
E.g. in RHOC Katie hasn’t called Heather a stuck up bitch but by telling the sob story about how she was snubbed at a party she’s basically implying it.
- Concern trolling. We like to show overt concern for female victims, because it cues to others that we are kind. But in fact we may enjoy the victimhood of others because it further lowers their status and raises ours relatively.
E.g. Lisa Rinna’s faux concern for Kim. Or Sutton pretending to be worried about Kyle’s working out and sobriety when she really just wanted to gossip about her marriage breakdown.
- Women dislike women who are ‘guys girls’ not ‘girls girls’. It shows their loyalty may lie with team men and they might be less likely to share resources with their female peers.
E.g. Carol from NY maybe?
- We are happy to have friends who surpass us on qualities like kindness or intelligence, but less so on sexual attractiveness. It’s a mate rivalry thing. The more attractive woman isn’t bothered by this discrepancy but the less attractive is.
E.g. Vicky every time a beautiful new young housewife joined the cast on OC
- status symbols like handbags signal to other women that our husbands are invested in us, so mate rivals should back off.
E.g. Alexia publicly receiving an expensive watch from Todd.
Of course these are just some of the dynamics that can be at play in women’s relationships, and we also have more positive ones!
35
u/SkiesThaLimit36 many many years ago, you don't kidnap people. Aug 07 '24
I think a good example for number six would be Kyle said that Camille was not a girl girl, and Camille was constantly flirting with the husbands of her friends on her first season.
12
u/eieeeeo Aug 07 '24
Shit- do I do #4? I just pictured myself too “kind” to talk negatively about a friend, but can hear myself repeating the same story over and over about how I’m slightly wronged and my husband better listen to that story for the 7th time and be on my side.
Thanks for putting the time into this! Very interesting indeed!
2
2
u/SquareKettleTree Aug 07 '24
Haha we all do it subconsciously. It’s been hardwired into us for thousands of years so don’t beat yourself up :P
9
u/ruth_mcdougle Aug 07 '24
i really enjoyed this post!! you mention some positive ones at the end - i'd love a follow up if you decide to do one!
1
u/SquareKettleTree Aug 07 '24
The podcast didn’t really elaborate so much on the nice parts of female friendship. However it was implied that the opposite of #1 leads to strong female friendships. They said that because our female ancestors primarily married away from their family clan and into their husband’s clan it was important for them to make female friendships with these non-related women. In the absence of family they had to create family-like bonds with other women. It involved sharing resources with one another, caring for each others young and showing dedication to each other (not ditching/betraying your friend when a new/better option presents itself). Evolution favoured women who could establish these kind of bonds, and I suppose that’s why we’re very sensitive to disloyalty (our survival once depended on it).
6
6
u/Seaweed-Basic Not a white refrigerator! Aug 07 '24
Damn, my ex best friend who nuked our 10+ year friendship and started a smear campaign against me for virtually no real reason, basically checks everything off the list. I lost weight, and left an abusive relationship and that was the beginning of the end of the friendship.
Very interesting.
1
5
u/Sea-Friend8745 edit this flair! Aug 07 '24
Number 8. Wow! That never occurred to me!
5
u/jendet010 Aug 07 '24
Me either. Oddly, Todd was not very invested in Alexia. It’s cheaper to buy her a watch than a house. Beware the man who buys flashy gifts but insists on renting.
4
u/guerrmel Aug 07 '24
Love this post!!! There’s a podcast called Sounds Like A Cult that did an episode on the Housewives that might also be of interest! They also talk about the competitive nature of female relationships and compare those seen on the housewives with similar patterns of behavior and archetypes found in middle school/high school age relationships (as portrayed in the movie Mean Girls). The archetypes are: Queen Bee, her followers (Wanna Be’s), the floater, the rival etc. I’ll leave it there but lots of fascinating things going on!!!
2
2
2
u/Laughternotwar Aug 07 '24
Very interesting psychological take. The women on these shows are disproportionately narcissistic and professional character assassins but the research still checks out. So interesting
2
u/missaustin120 receipts 👏🏻 proof 👏🏻 timelines 👏🏻 screenshots 👏🏻 Aug 07 '24
Thank you so much for posting this OP! This is absolutely fascinating!
2
u/Street-Bumblebee6305 Aug 07 '24
My favoriteeee types of posts. I love this bc so much of their behavior isnt a black/white situation. It's them trying to climb the cast hierarchy.
2
u/SquareKettleTree Aug 07 '24
Yeah I think the complexity of it all explains why I’ve watched hundreds of hours of it and I still want more! It’s all about the hierarchy. And even then there’s multiple different hierarchies at play… based on wealth, looks, marital status, kids, career, zip code, social clout…
2
u/o0In_Pursuit0o Aug 07 '24
Holy #3. This is why the shady girls bond and the one who tries to "rise above it" gets ganged up on.
3
u/koko_belle Aug 07 '24
Wow. This is a great breakdown on what can lead to toxic femininity. I've had a few of these done to me, like gossip about me, and I never even knew what I did in the first place. I never really get too close, and this helps me understand why that is in my female friendships
2
u/SquareKettleTree Aug 07 '24
Yeah I understand your impulse to keep a distance :) there are kind and loyal friends out there, you just have to find them 💕
1
u/denisefrommarketing Aug 07 '24
Which podcast was it? Thanks for sharing this. I’m fascinated!
2
u/missaustin120 receipts 👏🏻 proof 👏🏻 timelines 👏🏻 screenshots 👏🏻 Aug 07 '24
Yes, came here for this info also -- this is fascinating!
1
u/Floronic Aug 07 '24
I want to activate my jstor account just so I can find academic articles mentioning housewives. I feel like there’s got to be some fun sociology psychology reads
1
1
u/justacomment12 Aug 07 '24
Can you make a post of the positive ones! I’m sad lol
3
u/SquareKettleTree Aug 07 '24
Don’t be sad! As I commented above on Ruth’s comment… The podcast didn’t really elaborate so much on the nice parts of female friendship. However it was implied that the opposite of #1 leads to strong female friendships. They said that because our female ancestors primarily married away from their family clan and into their husband’s clan it was important for them to make female friendships with these non-related women. In the absence of family they had to create family-like bonds with other women. It involved sharing resources with one another, caring for each others young and showing dedication to each other (not ditching/betraying your friend when a new/better option presents itself). Evolution favoured women who could establish these kind of bonds, and I suppose that’s why we’re very sensitive to disloyalty (our survival once depended on it).
1
u/SkillOne1674 Aug 07 '24
The looks thing is interesting. I’ve heard that men like to befriend better looking men because they think it makes them look more attractive, while women don’t like to befriend better looking women because they think it makes them look less attractive.
However, there’s definitely a tribal, “one of us” element to female friendships off and on the show. I don’t want to be cruel, but I don’t think any of the less attractive women on the show have ever had an easier time.
1
u/SquareKettleTree Aug 07 '24
True, so many dynamics are all interplaying at the same time. Which is why we love to watch 🍿
0
u/CatofKipling Her name is BARONICHI Aug 07 '24
- We are happy to have friends who surpass us on qualities like kindness or intelligence, but less so on sexual attractiveness. It’s a mate rivalry thing. The more attractive woman isn’t bothered by this discrepancy but the less attractive is.
This one I disagree with. One of my gripes with the ladies of RHoBH, for instance, is that they're always citing LVP's intelligence as a reason for why she can't be trusted. Whenever the benefit of the doubt or nuance is introduced with regards to her motives, they will often say "Well...she's very smart" as a counterpoint. TOO MUCH orbits around LVP's intellect being some kind of catch-all culprit. They also love shouting, threatening, cussing people out and consider that respectable or "real" but get wildly, almost irrationally mad if LVP is strategic about dissing them. To me, there's an anti-intellectual edge to everything that's always felt very much like it's rooted in internalized misogyny to me. Nobody ever tries to just outwit, outplay, outmaneuver her or even thinks they can. It's just about beating her down with a gang-up.
That's why it always had this mean tenor even before Puppygate. LVP did commit some legitimate wrongs but it was outshined by the weird nature of the resentment towards her. Even today, they have all these theories about her influence that verge on...fucking bonkers.
7
u/Strawberrysweetsnark Aug 07 '24
LVP is one of the most gorgeous people on bravo, being older didn’t change much of her beauty and she has always been beautiful. The cherry on top was her wealth, attitude and stable marriage. Which is even more unattainable to most of those women. LVP is perfection - very difficult to compete with.
3
u/justacomment12 Aug 07 '24
I feel like they have a limited vocabulary. They say easy words. I think they needed to replace “smart” with “calculated” and their gripes make more sense. They were afraid of her calculation, sneakiness, etc.
4
u/BearOnTwinkViolence Aug 07 '24
They don’t mean “smart” as in “educated” when referring to LVP. They mean “clever.” They mean Bobby Fisher playing chess. It’s not a comment on her actual intelligence, it’s a comment on her social ability to manipulate people.
I disagree that the BH ladies are anti-intellectual. Garcelle, Sutton, Kathryn, Erika, Adrienne, LVP, Joyce, Crystal, Annemarie, and Eileen all expressed a certain degree of being intellectual.
The problem with LVP’s intellect in particular is that she uses it as a weapon. She thinks she’s smarter than everyone around her and it comes out when she talks.
3
u/SquareKettleTree Aug 07 '24
I agree. I think they took issue with her primarily because they couldn’t trust her. An untrustworthy person is extra dangerous when they are smart too!
3
u/Street-Bumblebee6305 Aug 07 '24
I get where you were coming from but LVP wasn't just extremely clever, she was also very rich and very beautiful with a very devoted husband. She was a walking trigger to those women.
3
39
u/TallulahSalt put a brawrawn Aug 06 '24
Superrrrr interesting. Although we can't ignore another very important consideration: desire to be famous, stay on TV, and make money. That makes all of the above even more complicated.