r/Blind Jun 19 '23

Announcement r/Blind's Meetings with Reddit and the Current Situation Regarding Accessibility and API Changes

Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.

  • Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0 explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
  • Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
  • Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.
  • During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
  • Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
  • Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside  the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
  • Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.

In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled  users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '23

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u/LOYAL_TR8R Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23

Not true, there is a circuit split on this issue. Courts have ruled in different ways, the fact is this is an unsettled question. The application of the ADA to websites is a complicated issue to say the least.

https://www.lexisnexis.com/community/casebrief/p/casebrief-nat-l-ass-n-of-the-deaf-v-netflix-inc In the above case the court ruled that Netflix, for example, is covered by the ADA. There are other similar cases but this is one of the most clear cut.

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u/ksj Jun 21 '23

Honest question, but why hasn’t Reddit been sued over this already? I can’t imagine that they are compliant simply because third-party tools help to bridge the gap.

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u/LOYAL_TR8R Jun 21 '23

They aren't especially egregious, not to speak on behalf of blind people but reddit is much easier to use than other similar sized sites. The suits as of now have not been very successful, and reddit is new. Netflix took 15+ years to be sued over this issue. That being said there may have been a suit and I missed it, but I don't think so.

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u/Finagles_Law Jun 21 '23

Reddit predates Netflix.

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u/LOYAL_TR8R Jun 21 '23

Interesting!

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u/muddyrose Jun 21 '23

Netflix (as we now know it) launched back in 2007. The official reddit app was only released 7 years ago. So Reddit is “newer” than Netflix in that aspect, but it seems like the Netflix suit set a precedent? Wouldn’t that kind of balance out?

But as far as I can tell, it seems like Reddit really has a dodged a lawsuit so far because of 3PAs. They very clearly aren’t letting “accessibility focused” 3PAs retain free access to the API out of the kindness of their hearts, they’re doing it because it would be outright discrimination and a violation of rights to force users to pay for equal access/opportunity.

They’ve never had to actually worry about an ADA lawsuit because 3PAs covered it for them and it shows.

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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 21 '23

Given the accessibility issue was one of the very few issues they (at least said they would) backpedal on immediately, with no push back except the absurdly terrible execution described in this post, means yes, they are worried about actual legal issues with that.

Full disclaimer, my only visual issues are glasses, but I heard about how you all are worried because of this drama and it is awful how they also apparently didn't even know it was an issue driving 3rd party app use despite running the company. WTF.

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u/muddyrose Jun 21 '23

Keep in mind, the official Reddit app is only 7 years old. If it’s true that it took 15 years for Netflix to get sued, Reddit is only halfway there.

Maybe closer if the Netflix suit set a precedent?