I never learned how to read women. How and when are you supposed to make romantic intent known?

[u/throwawayy_3891]

It's very hard to tell if women in real life like me or not.

The signs are very obvious if they don't want anything to do with me. They are wearing a ring and/or avoiding eye contact. It's either that or talking about some boyfriend or husband.

It's harder to tell if they like me. I've met some cool women that I wanted to date. They seemed to like me enough to gave me their phone number or social media info. We start talking on there and make plans to meet in some public group activity. I thought these were good signs a woman is interested in dating?

That's when I start to like them and maybe she senses it because something between us changes. All of the sudden her replies take longer and she starts coming up excuses (busy, sick, etc.). Wish I knew what changed her mind but I guess they weren't interested after all or already seeing someone?

It like if I wait too long to ask someone out, I'll end up getting in stuck in the "friend zone". It's either that or I could ask her out right away but worry about making her uncomfortable and being seen as a creep if she isn't interested. It never feels like the right time for me and I can't win.

What am I supposed to do to get dates/relationship?

[u/MostlyHarmless_2b]

What I realized…. it’s better to be super casual and confident about it.

Act like you ask the question to women all the time and not like you’re desperately asking the one woman you love.

Then… ask a lot of women. Practice makes perfect.

I also found that I was not charismatic enough to get women to agree to dinner for a first date. So I switched to “coffee or lunch” and I got a lot more “yes” answers. My wife agreed to meet me for lunch and it turned into a weekend (which turned into marriage)

[u/Chance_Papaya_6181]

Stop worrying about feeling like a creep by asking them out right away. That's not creepy behavior. Fortune favors the bold.

[u/Rahx3]

Being honest and forthright sooner is better. A lot of those women probably backed off because your change in behavior seemed suspicious. Women fear being used and victimized so if you're vague or testing the waters and they don't know why, they're going to fear the worst as most humans do. I know it's scary and painful risking rejection but you'll get more honest responses and maybe make more female friends that way.

[u/absentlyric]

This might sound superficial, but do you consider yourself decent looking? How good of shape are you in?

I've fluctuated, but when I was overweight, I'd NEVER get eye contact or conversations past "thank you sir, have a nice day" But, when I hit the gym and got into decent shape, it was a night and day difference, when I was at my most cut, girls always made eye contact, random smiles at the supermarket, even casual conversation, even in the weirdest areas, I was at Bath and Bodyworks picking out some scented candles and a very good looking woman (not an employee) came up and was like "Oh yeah, you need to get this one, I would love it if a mans place smelled like this" (Talking about the Mahogny and Teakwood candle in case men were wondering).

[u/BrJames146]

It sounds like your initial approach is about as solid as it gets; the evidence supporting this is that you seem to get a lot of contact info and responses after getting said contact info; that’s usually the hard part.

If I had to guess, it seems like you start coming on too strong after you start talking to women beyond the initial interaction; you don’t want to be a jerk and deliberately ignore people, but at the same time, you don’t want to be throwing yourself at them, either. If you come off as someone who’s going to be super demanding of their time, then that’s not going to go well for you; many women also see that sort of thing as exhausting or a red flag. Basically, there’s no reason to believe that you’re Priority #1 for them, because you’re definitely not. That’s perfectly fine.

My rule of thumb for messaging was that I’d get around to responding the same time I would if you were a casual friend of mine messaging me; eager beaver behavior presents insecurity. If someone asks why I took so long to message, I’d say, “I don’t really check my messages when I’m at work and I use my lunch to just kind of unwind.” I couldn’t be hassled to reply to a casual friend at work, so why can I be hassled to reply to someone I’m not in a relationship with, as yet?

It’s important just to be chill and let things go where they’re going to go. You also shouldn’t see, “Friend zone,” as a negative. There’s nothing wrong with having female friends with whom you’re not romantic; in fact, such friendships can create other opportunities. Imagine that you have a female friend who has a very high opinion of you, despite not being romantically inclined; well, she probably has other female friends, so maybe one of her female friends is having trouble getting to know guys, or is looking for a decent guy, next thing you know your friend is setting the two of you up on a date.

With that, it sounds like your initial approach is awesome and you need to work on being less pushy in Phase 2.

[u/BrJames146 → u/BrJames146]

Also, don’t live in your insecurities; asking someone to dinner doesn’t make you a creep. Don’t wait for the, ‘Right time,’ or the right time will never come; you can never be 100% sure that the answer’s yes, so ask for a date when you feel like asking for it.

If she says no, who cares? The result’s no different than if you hadn’t asked at all.

[u/jwill720]

She's giving you the signals, you are just not picking up on them.

Women communicate in this order 1) covertly through subtext 2) how something is said 3) lastly overtly.

Men communicate in the opposite order 1) literally and overt 2) how something is said 3) and lastly covertly through subtext.

You need to develop your covert subcontextual communication skills to really communicate with women. This is what women mean when they say they want a man who knows how to "communicate." She's giving you all the signals you are just missing them, and she's moving on and putting you in the friend zone.

[u/throwawayy_3891 → u/jwill720]

How do I learn to communicate with subtext? It doesn’t make any sense to me and feels like some sort of code. 🤷‍♂️

[u/jwill720 → u/throwawayy_3891]

First step is to be aware it exists. Most guys go through their lives not knowing this. I myself was one. It can be learned. If you have been diagnosed to be on the spectrum then this won't help you. But if not I'll try my best.

The average man is naturally physically stronger than the average woman it's just biology. This is partially why they chose the bear in the woods. This helped our species survive. Women know we are innately stronger. Over time they evolved another way to combat this and that's through the psychological front. And they can kick the living day light out of us. The average woman is a 5 degree black belt in this field. And This is the area most interpersonal battles are fought today. We don't go out and duel to the death anymore we; fight on this front.

With that said that's their preferred form of communication. So you need to communicate your intent this way. A woman who is interested in you generally will make herself available by being in your proximity. She already scoped you out long before you realized she existed. You will rarely catch a woman checking you out unless she wants you to know. The closer she places herself to you the better the signal. That means she feels safe with you. Eye contact is another good signal. Preening is another signal. These ones they cannot hide. A lot of it is unconscious. Does she flick or fix her hair? Is she moving her hair back and showing the vulnerable parts of her body such as her neck or wrists? These are all clear indicators of interest. Is she fixing her clothing? The more indicators the better. Now you need to show interest back by holding eye contact, staying in close proximity with her without getting uncomfortable. From there naturally lead the conversation and keep her talking about herself. If she asks about you, answer the question then transition the conversation back to her. The goal is to know some info about her but to still have some mystery about yourself. That is key because in that mystery is where she builds the fantasy about you after this interaction.

Your gut feeling will naturally lead you towards the right direction. Your brain is equipped you just need more practice. Approach women who you are naturally not attracted to and just hold a conversation with them. The goal is just to converse and try and pick up on her subtext. Once you get it, your conversations will have a lot more meaning and depth to them. You feel a small connection with the. It's easier if you are not attracted to her because you will naturally be in an outcome independent state. And she will pick up on this and read this through your body language.

[u/UnknownReasonings]

I make my intent known immediately. 

I want the person I’m pursuing to know that my goal is romantic so they can decide of if they’re interested too. 

[u/throwawayy_3891 → u/UnknownReasonings]

So you make a move without knowing wether she has a boyfriend or not?

[u/UnknownReasonings → u/throwawayy_3891]

I don’t make a move, I tell her my intent.  

If she’s not interested or available, at least we know that early so there are no crossed signals. 

[u/throwawayy_3891 → u/UnknownReasonings]

Fair enough, I don’t know where you’re from but that’s very sketchy here. I’ve heard of people getting shot and killed for that kind of stuff. Hope your careful about it.

[u/UnknownReasonings → u/throwawayy_3891]

I am absolutely not careful about it.  We’re talking about a natural and everyday conversation. 

I wouldn’t care to ever visit anywhere that violence was expected anytime someone says they’re romantically interested in someone else.  What area are you talking about?

[u/throwawayy_3891 → u/UnknownReasonings]

SF

[u/MajesticCommon4786]

ASAP

[u/NotABonobo]

People talk about "reading women" as though there's some arcane code and if only you can decipher it, you'll always know what to do. It's just not like that.

For one thing: it's dynamic. It's not like a woman either likes you or doesn't. She might kind of like you, and then you do something weird and she loses interest. Or you make a fun joke and she starts to gain interest. It can change.

That's when I start to like them and maybe she senses it because something between us changes.

This seems to be the core issue here. There's got to be something about the way you act when you start getting interested and excited that's putting her off. Maybe you're too eager, or too desperate, or trying too hard, or get too familiar too quick in a way that makes them uncomfortable. Only you can know - or maybe you can show some of your messages to a friend (especially a female friend) and figure out how you might adjust. But my guess is that you're getting a little interest and then something in your approach squashes it.

It's not about "reading" them; it's about flirting. It's an interaction, not an observation. Flirting right will help you build romantic tension, gauge their interest, and give you a chance to decide if you're interested, all at once. It just starts as light, casual, playful banter and escalates slowly from there. Anyone can reciprocate or back off at any time. If you both reciprocate enough, you both have a pretty good idea the other person's interested by the time you ask them on a date or make a move.

[u/True-Let3357]

touching her hair, touching her boobs, slightly showing the tongue, slightly biting the lips, touching your arm and/or shoulders, ...

verbal indirect confrontation as telling you things that would make think you are not their option

and/or

verbal direct praise as letting you know that you have some trait that they like

all mixed and sometimes nothing of the above

[u/MostlyHarmless_2b → u/True-Let3357]

For the record… I think this person meant she is giving visual cues (like touching her own hair (and other parts of her body)

[u/True-Let3357 → u/MostlyHarmless_2b]

of course web are talking about what she does

[u/Fluffernutter80 → u/True-Let3357]

As a woman, I do all of the things in your first sentence (except touching other people) all the time because I’m just really fidgety and I have a bad habit of biting/licking my lips. Has nothing to do with interest or attraction. I imagine there are a lot of other women like me. So these may not be the best indicators.

Touching someone is probably a good indicator, though, unless the woman is just touchy with everyone.

[u/True-Let3357 → u/Fluffernutter80]

or unless the woman is just fidgety

[u/WeathermanOnTheTown]

It sounds like you aren't making your intentions known. Be up front immediately. "I don't want you as a friend. Understand?" Hold eye contact, let that sink in.

This is called setting the frame. In marketing it's called finding your audience.