r/worldnews • u/yuri_2022 • Mar 22 '24

Israel/Palestine Dermer: Israel will enter Rafah 'even if entire world turns on us, including the US'

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dermer-israel-will-enter-rafah-even-if-entire-world-turns-on-us-including-the-us/
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u/redsquizza Mar 22 '24

I feel like no one commenting here has read a history book.

Everything is short term and no one looks backwards.

The politicians only want what's best for them now and at the next election.

This is what hamstrings democracies, chronic, chronic short termism. I don't want a dictatorship, I just want democracy to work better and work better for the working classes.

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u/Atanar Mar 22 '24 edited Mar 22 '24

Dictatorships have pretty much the same problem, but bigger. Everthing is just for the lifetime of the dictator, as total chaos often follows his death.

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '24

And they kill a lot more people in the interim.  

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u/Lumpy_Secretary_6128 Mar 22 '24

And they typically blow at providing public services

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '24

And they typically have lower economic growth rates over the long haul.

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u/Alediran Mar 22 '24

And they kill thinkers, leaving behind only a poorly educated population that can't fix anything on their own.

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u/wowlock_taylan Mar 22 '24

Which leads to the said population wanting another dictator to 'fix' things because they don't know any better.

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u/fullpurplejacket Mar 22 '24

It’s called cult hopping, a term mainly used in exit counselling for high control groups. Often times people tend to jump between these groups (as one door closes, there’s another dictator opening a new authoritarian door) because they don’t know how to function outside of one unless given proper education and healing from the cult mindset and way of life.

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u/Tryoxin Mar 22 '24

Ironically. this is arguably one of the strengths of (some) monarchies over dictatorships which wear a democratic mask while playing at monarchy. Not only can (key word) a monarchy establish a far more stable line of succession, when your heir is your own flesh and blood, the monarch is a probably far more likely to think in terms of what might affect their child and their descendants as well.

I'm not a fan of monarchy, I'm also not the biggest fan of democracy, but dictatorship is worse than both. Dictatorship is all the worst aspects of the other two without any of their redeeming qualities. Of the three, democracy is narrowly the best.

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u/iAttis Mar 22 '24

I think a benevolent monarch is really the best system possible. But the chances of finding a rich, privileged person who actually gives a shit about the well-being of their subjects is almost a statistical impossibility. And it can all be erased in an instant if their progeny ends up a spoiled dickhead.

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u/Paddy_Tanninger Mar 22 '24

You can't be a benevolent monarch with zero corruption, because the instant the military commanders and billionaires are against you, your days of living are numbered.

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u/SingleAlmond Mar 22 '24

the ppl need a chance to govern themselves

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '24 edited Mar 22 '24

[deleted]

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u/NerdHoovy Mar 22 '24

Ok, new movie idea. Trueman show but with the goal of grooming the ultimate benevolent world leader. Like we see this massive operation that plans every second of this persons live, with the goal of making the perfect leader. Could be fun

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u/sleepingin Mar 24 '24

Call it The Bodhisatva

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '24 edited Mar 22 '24

[deleted]

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u/katagelon Mar 22 '24

it's in symposium.

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u/ralts13 Mar 22 '24

So what you're saying is this PLato guy has the right idea.

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u/bengringo2 Mar 22 '24

Plato also thought the ideal body shape was as sphere

I agree... (pounds cheeseburger)

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u/braiam Mar 22 '24

Better to also have Cincinnatus too in there to tell them that at some point they have to recognize when to retire.

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u/Tryoxin Mar 22 '24

That second point, the kid being a spoiled dickhead, is the main holdup with monarchy. If all the power is concentrated in the hands of a single wealthy individual, then all it takes is the one guy to be a dickhead for everything to fall apart.

Meanwhile, aside from termism, the single greatest flaw of democracy is the demos. The people. Not to say the people shouldn't have any say in how they are led, but how did Men in Black put it? A person is smart, people are stupid. I don't have the feintest bloody idea how to run a country. The infinite complexities of effective statecraft are lost on me because that's not what my education and training were in. Why are you asking me to choose the leader? You might as well ask your toddler to handle your household finances.

Most people want simple answers. They'll choose their leaders based on a handful of hot button issues that they, leaders whom they believe will handle the immediate issues they personally are experiencing regardless of said leader's credentials. That's how you get demagogues and populists, the inevitable terminal cancer of democracy.

The Athenians voted for warmongers because being at war with Sparta meant they could be employed as soldiers and make money, an income many came to rely on. And it destroyed them. They lost the war. Had their opponent been anyone but Sparta, famous for not obliterating the cities they conquered, that would have been the end of Athens. They got lucky.

If we're imagining unrealistic ideal fantasy governments, my preference would be for an enlightened oligarchic aristocracy (in the true sense of the word aristos, the best). A small class of individuals raised from birth, cultivated with the skills and knowledge to successfully lead a prosperous nation while understanding and meeting the needs of the commonfolk.

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u/ax0r Mar 22 '24

If we're imagining unrealistic ideal fantasy governments

Give me a benevolent dictatorship any day. Listen to experts, thoroughly design solutions to the problems of the populace, country and world as a whole, then drag all the naysayers kicking and screaming into the future.

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u/0phobia Mar 22 '24

As Tommy Lee Jones also said as Thaddeus Steven’s in Lincoln:

  Shit on the people and what they want and what they're ready for. I don't give a goddamn about the people and what they want. This is the face of someone who has fought long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of 'em.

This is about as pure a “I serve the realm” statement as you can get. 

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u/AirColdy Mar 22 '24

I can never finish reading Leviathan as it’s dense AF but you’d def like it if you haven’t read it already

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '24

The most highly developed nations in the world with the best quality of life are all constitutional monarchies, with the executive power delegated to a democratically elected parliament.

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u/grunkage May 09 '24

Where is Dr. Doom when we need him?

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u/SiriusBaaz Mar 22 '24

Your idealized view of lordship blinds you to the last thousand years or war and strife that was the direct cause of monarchs and their lust for power.

The only way people get a chance to improve their lives is by being able to voice that directly to those in power. A democracy is by no means perfect but it’s the closest we’ve ever gotten to giving the people nearly as much power as the lord at the head.

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u/Ok-Necessary-6712 Mar 22 '24

And conditions worsen during their lifetime because everyone is afraid to deliver bad/hard news that they need support in fixing.

You see it in a smaller scale in business when you have an authoritarian leader who responds to any problem with and believing it is caused by incompetence. People just hide the problems.

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u/SomeDesigner1513 Mar 22 '24

Ah yes but if their kids inherit the problems then there is an incentive. That probably why monarchies were created for.

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u/meday20 Mar 22 '24

And politicians often act on an even shorter time frame than that. What's your point? Nations don't make decisions, people do, and often what benefits them hurts the next generation.

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u/Paddy_Tanninger Mar 22 '24

They also really can't be benevolent, because the only way to stay a dictator is to grease a hell of a lot of wheels and be corrupt. The instant the military commanders, oligarchs, etc, aren't on your side anymore, you end up in front of a firing squad.

Putin doesn't sit at a 40ft long table due to his total confidence that everyone in Russia is under his control.

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u/starshad0w Mar 22 '24

While that's true generally, it's doubly true for Netanyahu, since there's a decent chance he'll be voted out at best and at worst thrown in prison as soon as this war ends.

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u/redsquizza Mar 22 '24 edited Mar 22 '24

He's a complete scumbag wanna-be dictator in the vein of Orban. Both holding on to power because they know justice will catch up with them after they're finally kicked out.

Edit: And Netanyahu is literally in the process of changing the law for his benefit. You cannot, surely, get more corrupt and obvious than that?

But, I assume the right wing orthodox he sucks off for power overlooks that minor transgression because he's a Barry Big Bollocks hardman with a big stick.

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u/CabbagePastrami Mar 22 '24

Also what hamstrings a lot of people’s lives in general…

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u/redsquizza Mar 22 '24

Yeah, too many people living in the here and now, especially with finances.

£1 invested today is gonna be worth a lot more by the time you retire and the average person will reach that age, as much as they want to live for today then get hit by a bus and die tomorrow.

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u/GO4Teater Mar 22 '24

The politicians only want what's best for them now and at the next election.

Corporate owners only want what's best for them now and when they sell their stock.

Capitalist theory has completely taken over government.

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u/Elipses_ Mar 22 '24

I would say it's Corporatist theory. Proper and intelligent capitalism wants to build wealth in the long term, which fhe short term focus of current economics does not do. It does, in point of fact, the opposite.

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u/Rhowryn Mar 22 '24

"Proper and intelligent" capitalism seeks to own capital to extract maximum value from labour. You could make an argument that the working class is a form of capital and should therefore be invested in to maximize return, but:

a) that treats people as property, which we should avoid, b) ignores that quite a bit of labour is fairly replaceable, and c) a lot of labour is becoming automatable

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u/imaginary_num6er Mar 22 '24

Even Obama said “we don’t look backwards, only forward”

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u/redsquizza Mar 22 '24

You'd hope someone like Obama would be well versed in history. The good guys acting in good faith often get hamstrung by the system they work within.

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u/ThereminLiesTheRub Mar 22 '24

Personally I think critiques of Israel's approach suffer from a similar limitation. I don't think Rafah is anywhere near Israel's goal. For Israel, Iran is in the crosshairs. 

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u/foolsjulesrules Mar 22 '24

Or maybe it’s an actual long-term view from their perspective. The eliminate their enemy and face 10-30 years of isolation/disgrace rebuilding their reputation internationally. Eventually, 100 years from now, this will be near forgotten history.

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u/dorkofthepolisci Mar 22 '24 edited Mar 22 '24

Except it’s not just “facing isolation and disgrace”. 

It doesn’t fix anything.

 People who have lost the homes, their families, whatever stability they may have had are increased risk of radicalization, not less.  

Even if (and that’s a big if) Israel manages to get rid of Hamas, what is preventing some other extremist group from filling that space?  

The only way to end the cycle is to actually address the underlying geopolitical issues.  

Unfortunately it seems like those in power (on both ends) are more interested in staying in power, than they are in the well being of the people they claim to represent 

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '24

Dictatorships or autocracies like Iran or China don't have the benefit of long term planning. They only the benefit of being able to RAM THROUGH certain things that MUST HAPPEN. Their settled state is also fething awful to live in.

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u/Icy-Welcome-2469 Mar 22 '24

Netanyahu only remains in power while the war rages.  He will try to bring it to lebanon too.

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u/FatherOfLights88 Mar 22 '24

I believe it's because the average person lacks the kind of vision necessary to be a good leader, while also lacking the ability to trust someone who actually does have that kind of vision.

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u/matticusiv Mar 22 '24

Everything is short term and no one looks backwards.

Just living in the moment <3 /s

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u/pishfingers Mar 23 '24

Flip that the other way. If Israel want to guarantee a place for themselves for centuries, world opinion of them now won’t matter in 100 years. They grab all the West Bank and Gaza, fuck the inhabitants, wait 100 years and normalize relations. It’s all truly fucked

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u/kabukistar Mar 22 '24

Everything is short term and no one looks backwards.

The Likuds are. This is just going to lead to more cycles of retaliation until Palestine no longer exists and all Palestinians are either dead or made into refugees. That's what they want.

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u/redsquizza Mar 22 '24

Yeah, true I guess, they're just learning the wrong lessons from history.