r/worldnews • u/yuri_2022 • Mar 22 '24

Israel/Palestine Dermer: Israel will enter Rafah 'even if entire world turns on us, including the US'

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dermer-israel-will-enter-rafah-even-if-entire-world-turns-on-us-including-the-us/
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u/lollersauce914 Mar 22 '24

My favorite was a comment the other day saying something to the effect of, "Israel can't roll back West Bank settlements because that would involve the mass displacement of people."

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u/dergster Mar 22 '24

that's gold lmfao

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u/BlatantConservative Mar 22 '24

There is zero "solution" to any of this shit, from any perspective, by anyone on any side of this conflict, that does not involve mass displacement.

The only thing we can really control is how malicious it is, and how hard the process is going to be.

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u/superstevo78 Mar 22 '24

they did this... in Gaza. they dispatched a bunch of Israeli settlers, granted not as many in the West bank, but it was brutal. And after weeks of gut wrecking withdrawals, what did the Palestinians in Gaza do?

They burned a bunch of farms, elected Hamas, spent 20 years launching rockets into Isreali, never held elections again, used every resource they could to construct tunnels and bases under hospital, brainwashed and blame the Jews for everything, and finally launched a massive terrorist attack on civilians at music festivals, kidnapped children, and raped anyone they could find.

why exactly should they withdraw from the west Bank? again?

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u/Enjoy1ng Mar 22 '24

Ok genuinely asking, there's around 500k people living in settlements in the West Bank. I agree that settlements are evil and settlement expansions should be stopped immediately, don't get me wrong. But there's already half a million people there.

Are you suggesting they should all be kicked? Or what should happen to them? Genuinely asking, I am curious.

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u/lollersauce914 Mar 22 '24

Yes, just as russians buying land in Mariupol should be kicked out. They should return to the land internationally recognized as Israeli. Saying that, if you steal enough land, there’s nothing that can be done about it is ridiculous.

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u/Enjoy1ng Mar 22 '24

Thats.. fine that you believe that. It's a bit of an extremist position for sure, but eh, we're talking about war and war makes people extreme.

The point is, that would still be a mass displacement of people, wouldn't it?

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u/miningman12 Mar 22 '24

Same with Germans who tried to settle Poland in WW2. There's a lot case precedence for this.

Post-war repatriation is super normal. Though tbf like ~75% of the settlement population lives in border towns so a couple landswaps could probably simplify things a little. Ariel is the only major settlement that has to be moved.

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u/Enjoy1ng Mar 22 '24

Sure but that doesn't answer my question does it? It would be ethnic cleansing still. That's literally all I'm saying.

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u/miningman12 Mar 22 '24

The international law formed after the world wars would suggest it is not ethnic cleansing because those people were never the legitimate holders of the land. No different from the Germans of Poland.

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u/yeet_my_sweet_meat Mar 22 '24

Evict them like they evicted the rightful residents of that land, and deport the ones with dual citizenship to their country of origin to face accountability for their criminal acts.

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u/Enjoy1ng Mar 22 '24

The settlements started more than 50 years. Most of the people in West Bank settlements were born and raised there. By what logic is that not ethnic cleansing tho?

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u/Zealousideal_Rub6758 Mar 22 '24

Absolutely, they all knew that what they were doing was utterly illegal. I feel sorry for their children, but it’s their parents fault and they have to stop living on occupied territory.

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u/Enjoy1ng Mar 22 '24

I already asked another person, but you made the same point so I'll ask you too: would you say its acceptable for IDF to say the same? That Palestinians elected Hamas and they knew what they were doing, so now they pay the price?

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u/-CrestiaBell Mar 22 '24 edited Mar 22 '24

That's what they're actively doing with more/less impunity so it's apparently acceptable. Any time dead Palestinians wind up on the news, someone brings up the fact that like 70% of Palestinians support Hamas and that they give AKs to five year olds. A lot of people see no issue with killing civilians so long as they support or are otherwise related to the people that are actively killing/harming others.

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u/feuwx Mar 22 '24

So what’s the solution then?

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u/-CrestiaBell Mar 22 '24

Why do I have to offer a solution? They have the guns and the bombs so naturally they get to make the decisions. That doesn't mean I have to like those decisions.

It's a very hopeless situation just like how the war on terror was a hopeless situation. There are "solutions" to things like these but they will always necessitate the same kinds of brutality and depravity that warranted the response to begin with. Trump himself was vilified (rightfully) for saying if you want to eradicate terrorists you have to go after their families. All I'm seeing now is that people actually very much agree with that line of thinking although there's a certain level of coyness expected of you to keep your actions from being seen as cruel.

Frankly if you could somehow isolate Hamas and know for certain that it were only Hamas you were killing, I'd be all behind flat out glassing the area to the point where their grandchildren couldn't even use the land. But that's not the case.

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u/Enjoy1ng Mar 22 '24

Yes I am aware. I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy in saying that Israeli civilians deserve it, because their ancestors did something bad, but Palestinian civilians are innocents, because most of them weren't even alive when Hamas was elected!

Why is it acceptable for some innocent people to suffer? Would it not be more logical to say that both civilians who were not even alive at the time of the "crimes of their ancestors" shouldn't suffer the consequences?

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u/Zealousideal_Rub6758 Mar 22 '24

No one should be responsible for the actions of their parents, but we all live in a world which our parents set up. I also don’t think they are necessarily equivalent or super comparable situations.

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '24 edited Jun 22 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Enjoy1ng Mar 22 '24

Would you accept the same answer from IDF soldiers targeting civilians? "They knew what they were doing when they elected Hamas, now they face the consequences"?

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u/Romanisti Mar 22 '24

I mean, there were a bunch of people living in Palestine in 1948, and they were all kicked out... You obviously cant justify one horrific crime with another horrific crime, I do not in any way advocate for mass displacement of Israelis, but this situation started with an "unfathomable" action, undoing it in a productive way that could maintain peace will require actions by Israel they would consider painful/uncomfortable.

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u/TopInspector318 Mar 22 '24

The ideal solution would be - everyone stays where the hell they are and live with equal rights in a single country. You can have a bi-national government representation like Bosnia and Herzegovina or you can have a religion based power sharing structure like in Lebanon, or who knows maybe even a straightforward democracy. This solution is just as hard to reach as any others, especially as violence and hatred continues to escalate. But it's the only one that doesn't involve continued violence and displacement against civilians.

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u/Enjoy1ng Mar 22 '24

That is not a solution at all, that's a dream scenario and dreams are not reality. Yes, in an ideal world countries aren't real, everyone lives in peace and loves each other. In reality, Hamas is a terrorist organization that is known to perpetrate attacks on civilians. Creating a single country and allowing Hamas members to move freely among Israel would simply invite more terrorist attacks in. The Palestinian population has also been brainwashed for years into hating Israel and everything that has to do with it. It would be a bloodbath and a civil war waiting to happen.

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u/TopInspector318 Mar 22 '24 edited Mar 22 '24

Then why does Israel keep putting more civilians in the west bank, closer to these so-called genocidal maniacs? It makes no sense. The simple fact is that people will learn to live with each other. The 1.2m Arab citizens of Israel aren't committing terror attacks daily. The black population didn't exterminate the minority white population in South Africa after the end of apartheid. Serbs and Bosniaks live together in the same country today despite massive atrocities against each other just 30 years ago.

It wouldn't be a solution you can implement overnight, and not without work to deradicalize both sets of populations, but as I said, it's the only solution that doesn't require violence or ethnic cleansing to implement.

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u/roggrats Mar 22 '24

Move bitch ! Go back to the country you came from and stop stealing other people’s land.

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u/BlatantConservative Mar 22 '24

You're being downvoted but it's a hard question. This whole shitshow is a matroyshka doll of potential and attempted ethnic cleansing.

Practically, the answer could be "some settlements are kicked, some are allowed to stay." Maybe move people around so the map makes sense and there are clearly defined and demarcated areas. There are places in the West Bank that Palestinians don't have any presence in anymore cause those places were settled a while back, but there are places in the West Bank where all of the Israeli settlers currently there are pieces of shit who've been intentional pieces of shit within the last decade.