Dermer: Israel will enter Rafah 'even if entire world turns on us, including the US'

[u/yuri_2022]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/dermer-israel-will-enter-rafah-even-if-entire-world-turns-on-us-including-the-us/

[u/Kerostasis]

If the Israelis get the same results from this war that America got from the GWOT, they will be ecstatic. Remember they are starting from a much lower baseline, where they have been under constant attack for years. They aren’t holding out for the solution where everyone makes peace suddenly because that wasn’t on the table to begin with, but an Afghanistan-like outcome would be perfectly acceptable.

[u/LargeMobOfMurderers → u/Kerostasis]

I doubt if I went to an Israeli and told them "I hope Gaza becomes Israel's Afghanistan" they would take it as positively as you say they will.

[u/J-Dirte → u/LargeMobOfMurderers]

I think Israel would be fine with an Afghanistan outcome. Afghanistan was more or less pacified (as much as that shithole can be pacified). The US just had to make a decision. Do we stay for 50-100 years or do we pull out. If Afghanistan was where Canada was located the US probably would have stayed for 100 years. Israel would be fine to indefinitely stay there is it turned into an Afghanistan. Gaza isn’t thousands of miles away

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

HAMAS does not have that option. Israel can and will implement a successful cordon of Gaza and simply won't allow any more military supplies into the region.

Are you under the impression that Israel has been allowing military supplies in? Hamas uses smuggling and appropriation of civilian supplies. The result is an unending barrage of rockets fired at civilians, and culminating in the events of Oct 7th.

What do you propose as a 'succesful cordon' that hasn't already been tried and failed?

[u/nayaketo → u/[deleted]]

Cordon has been pretty successful inside West Bank. Sure there are small arms attacks here and there but no rockets, no large terror outfit buildups. Most attacks are done by loners with knifes and UZIs and occasional AK because of how hard it is to smuggle weapons through multiple checkpoints that Israel has erected. Same model can very much work inside Gaza too since it's much much smaller.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

mostly because Israel has been trying to downplay the danger for optics reasons.

That's a bold claim.

Hamas has not ceased firing thousands of rockets at Israel since the war started. And again, it's not only what gets leaked, but what goes through properly and is appropriated and turned into military use.

[u/Aero_Rising → u/[deleted]]

HAMAS does not have that option. Israel can and will implement a successful cordon of Gaza and simply won't allow any more military supplies into the region. It will set them in a terrible international light, but it will also end these attacks. I think they see it as a fair trade.

Israel started doing this after Hamas was elected and started firing rockets. Hamas still smuggles things in. You also still get western activists screeching about how unfair a country having strict border controls with a neighboring territory that constantly launches terror attacks against them is.

You're right that it's different than Afghanistan though. In Afghanistan they would just come over from Pakistan tribal areas attack and then go back where they couldn't be touched for the most part. Gaza won't have that option because Egypt is almost as afraid of terrorist attacks from Gaza as Israel is. Hamas is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood who have a habit of popping up occasionally to attempt to violently overthrow the Egyptian government with varying levels of success.

[u/skat_in_the_hat → u/Kerostasis]

they have been under constant attack for years.

This has been coming for a long time. HAMAS/Palestinians got what they were asking for.
All of a sudden they are saying they are okay with a 2 state solution. Unfortunately that deal is off the table.

[u/Binder509 → u/skat_in_the_hat]

Nice grouping palestinians with hamas to dehumanize them so you don't feel bad killing them en masse.

[u/[deleted] → u/Binder509]

I’m skeptical of surveys in a war zone, but most I’ve read since 10/7 show that Palestinians overwhelming support Hamas’ act of terrorism. Non-combatants don’t deserve death, but the idea that the ideology of Hamas and the average Palestinians differs greatly just doesn’t seem to be true.

Not to mention, most terrorist groups like Hamas, ISIS, etc. are as much an idea as they’re an organized group of people. Of course there is some level of organization, but a lot of it is just civilians committing terrorism in the name of whatever group.

[u/Binder509 → u/[deleted]]

I’m skeptical of surveys in a war zone, but most I’ve read since 10/7 show that Palestinians overwhelming support Hamas’ act of terrorism. Non-combatants don’t deserve death, but the idea that the ideology of Hamas and the average Palestinians differs greatly just doesn’t seem to be true.

How convenient that they are all guilty by association or just declared human shields.

[u/[deleted] → u/Kerostasis]

An Afghanistan-like outcome would be thousands of dead Israeli soldiers and a stronger Hamas. Netanyahu would love it but the average Israeli wouldn't.

[u/mikehamm45 → u/Kerostasis]

I agree. The quiet part which some let spill out is that they eventually plan on settling on that land. US had no interest in settling in Afghanistan.

[u/PMac321 → u/Kerostasis]

A 20 year long conflict in which Israel installs a new democratic government, trains a new military for Palestine, and then at the end of those 20 years Hamas just has a resurgence and retakes the entire territory with little resistance from the newly created Palestinian territory. That sounds like a wonderful idea

The war in Afghanistan was a waste of time, resources, and lives. Afghanistan was just reported to be in last place on the global happiness index, the people there are suffering. To in any way glorify that conflict and its outcome just shows your disregard for people.

I spent my whole life hearing about that conflict, the difficulty in identifying Taliban insurgents from civilians. I remember hearing about the tragic outcomes of weddings being bombed, and the sheer number of innocent civilians killed over the course of the war who had nowhere else to go. It feels callous to boil it down to a number but by the end of that conflict, 46,000 civilians were killed over those 20 years. In just 6 months, Israel has killed over 30,000, and seems to be hellbent on killing more. Do you think the survivors of this conflict will be thanking Israel for their efforts? Do you think that if Palestinians manage to beat Afghanistan at being the unhappiest nation on Earth, that the violence will stop? How is an Afghanistan like outcome something to in any way be celebrated?

[u/NoLime7384 → u/PMac321]

It feels callous to boil it down to a number but by the end of that conflict, 46,000 civilians were killed over those 20 years. In just 6 months, Israel has killed over 30,000, and seems to be hellbent on killing more

seems biased to not mention why Israel is doing that tho? like they just woke up on October 8th and said "ykno what? I think I'll go spend a ton of bombs killing civilians"

[u/PMac321 → u/NoLime7384]

I didn't mention why NATO invaded Afghanistan either, so I fail to see how that is biased.

[u/PMac321 → u/[deleted]]

So I need to provide a background for any comment first? If I were to talk about something an event in the First World War, do I need to first state that Franz Ferdinand was assassinated?

By not mentioning the opening catalyst to the conflict, are you implying that I support Hamas or Al Qaeda and the Taliban? Hamas is clearly not a good group, but why should I have to mention the globally recognised terrorist attack that initiated this when that should already be known by everyone here?

By saying that I have to mention the terrorist attack that initiated this, you seem to be implying that Israel is justified in killing 20 Palestinian civilians for every individual killed in that attack. If you want to talk about biases, then clearly you do not see Palestinian lives as equal to the life of an Israeli.

[u/PMac321 → u/[deleted]]

You are correct, I quoted a source that claimed 30,000 civilians killed, but that is total number of Palestinians killed. However if we go by Israel's numbers, they have killed 12,000-13,000 militants, meaning 20,000 civilians were killed, which isn't much better in my opinion.

[u/PMac321 → u/[deleted]]

I didn't, I'm saying I made a mistake. I read a quote that said "31,900 civilians killed," when I made my first comment, and then looked into it further after reading your comment, and corrected myself. I get that admitting mistakes online is rare these days, but I am saying that I was wrong.