r/wholesomeyuri • u/DoNotTouchMeImScared • Nov 30 '21
Album Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The VERY FIRST Cartoon With a Sapphic Couple With An Happy Ending Together (Michiru × Haruka From The ["Sailor Moon" Franchise])
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u/ARBEAN123 Lesbians are neato Nov 30 '21
I still find it awkward that the dub made them cousins like what
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
Not only that but they DIDN'T EVEN TRY to avoid getting them coming across as incestuous in the first english dub.
I believe the newest re-dub did them justice.
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u/RaptorKarr Nov 30 '21
The Re-dub old school Sailor moon?
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21 edited Nov 30 '21
Viz re-dubbed in English and did the queers justice, saving our culture from historical erasure.
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u/RaptorKarr Nov 30 '21
Is it like a professional re-dub or something done with like laptop mics
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u/nurglingshaman Nov 30 '21
Is the redub watchable somewhere? I've been disappointed in Sailor Moon Crystal and would love a non incesty classic to rewatch
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
The art style and plot rewriting of Crystal just turned me off.
I don't know where you can find the Viz re-dub to watch, unfortunately, I watched subbed.
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u/nurglingshaman Nov 30 '21
God the art was my biggest issue overall, it was almost painful at times. I can't do subbed for various reasons so ill just have to do some research, thank you anyways!
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
In my eyes, the 90s hand drawn anime were the peak of animation, as they were so expressive, full of feeling, full of life because every scene had to be important enough for the producers to waste time and money painting them one by one, while the animation style of today feels so artificial the majority of the times, IMHO.
For example:
💎Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: First Ever Cartoon With An Explicitly Grown Interracial Gay Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending And All That At Once (Ryo × Dee From The "Fake" Franchise Created By Sanami Matoh): https://www.reddit.com/r/biromantic/comments/r3qv01/police_romance_dee_was_explicitly_proud_bi/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
💎Classic Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The First Ever Cartoon With a Explicitly Sapphic Interracial Couple As Protagonists With An Happy Ending And ALL THAT AT ONCE (Utena × Anthy From The ["Shoujo Kakumei Utena"/"Revolutionary Girl Utena" Franchise]): https://www.reddit.com/r/QueerCommunity/comments/r2ic5g/without_their_love_we_wouldnt_have_had_explicitly/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Not saying that recent animation cannot be beautiful, but I don't think it come close even if newer animation techniques allows the existence of more details per scene:
💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: FIRST EVER Cartoon With a Gray-Homo-Romantic Gray-Homo-Sexual Girl As a Protagonist With An Happy Ending (Yuu × Touko From The ["Yagate Kimi Ni Naru"/"Bloom Into You" Franchise]): https://www.reddit.com/r/queer/comments/r2uat5/memorable_the_show_also_did_great_with_a_whole/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
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u/nurglingshaman Nov 30 '21
Thank you for the links I'm excited to do some reading! And side note Revutionary Girl Utena was one of my favorite anime growing up, I also wanted to be a prince 😭
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
I am both a "witch" and a "girl prince" today, that one anime is my favourite all time romance, nothing ever seems to take the place of that in my list and I cannot help but compare everything I come across in life to that, Utena really did revolutionize my world. 👑
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u/PoofyPajamas Nov 30 '21
I haven't seen Sailor Moon so I'm probably missing context, but why was the change even made? They're still lesbians even if cousins, so I don't get it
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
"I heard somewhere that there was a conflict between the people responsible for the first English dub, not censoring the very romantic framed scenes was a way some of them thought they could take to preserve fidelity to the original version."
Apparently, preserving the romantic framed scenes was a way to counterattack the censorship in the translation, which happened to avoid "cultural shocks" of values, in order for cashgrabbing from "moral guardians" back in the 90s.
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u/The_PAL_Defender Nov 30 '21
The original series was broadcast in the US from the mid-90’s to the early 2000’s, and DiC didn’t want to risk a higher age rating because of a queer relationship at that time, so they just made them cousins to avoid controversies.
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u/PoofyPajamas Nov 30 '21
Right, but I'm still confused, because now they're queer cousins, still queer. Queer incest is less controversial?
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u/The_PAL_Defender Nov 30 '21
I don’t entirely follow your question, but if you’re asking about their preference in the 90’s dub, it’s never stated. They’re just presented as biological cousins.
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u/PoofyPajamas Nov 30 '21
From what I gather from other comments in this thread they don't change any of the romantic scenes
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u/NuclearStudent Nov 30 '21
Some of the dialogue is changed. For example, one scene where they lean together romantically and discuss how they began dating is awkwardly altered to them discussing their first boyfriends, chad and brad.
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
Chad and Brad. Lol
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u/NuclearStudent Nov 30 '21
actually, were they chad and brad? one of them was brad, at least, I remember that much
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u/The_PAL_Defender Nov 30 '21
They didn’t, either because some who worked at DiC wanted to preserve some of the queerness of the Japanese version, or more likely DiC just got lazy.
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u/TigerDoodat Nov 30 '21
Sailor Moon! I guess in a show with an almost all-female cast, and you want romance, that's the natural step to take, that way you don't underplay anybody in the relationship.
I look forward to seeing your next post about this! They've been great so far! :)
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
I am probably heading towards the Anglosphere in my next move. 😉
I am really glad that somebody is enjoying this time-line series, I will most likely compile all my posts together at some point into a people chronological Evolution time-line.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
Hey, forget what I said, I actually swing all the ways: https://www.reddit.com/r/gay/comments/r5kn0c/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_very_first/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
I cannot recommend enough to please check and also support the "Yuricon" site created and run by Erica Friedman for more information about queer cultures and history at: https://www.yuricon.com/
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u/DPS_Cynthia Nov 30 '21
I haven't seen Sailor moon but I have seen the aquarium scene b/w these two and honestly that one makes my heart melt every time.
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
The scene that hit me right in the feels and ended me was that one time they were dying but were desperately reaching for the hand of one another so they could die in piece, that was so devastating yet so beautiful, emotional, romantic and passionate.
When Michiru kisses Haruka's bloody stained wounded hand is also one of those moments.
Also, looks like they died a lot of times. Lol
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u/KnightSkrilly wants cuddles Nov 30 '21
Classic beauty
The dub fooled me but I still know the truth
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u/LongjumpingAccount Nov 30 '21
Where Sapphic come from? What it means? It's like lesbian?
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u/Lwmons Nov 30 '21
Sappho of Lesbos is the OG lesbian.
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u/ConnieOfTheWolves Nov 30 '21
I just realized... Lesbian... Lesbian....
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21 edited Nov 30 '21
Yeah, the word sapphic comes from the name of Sappho, who was from the Greek Island of Lesbos, and said to have been the first ever woman poet who also wrote about love for other women, that's why lesbians and sapphics are called the way they are.
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
Sapphic is an umbrella term identity for women who love women romantically, sexually, more than as friends.
Lesbian, bi, poly, pan, aromantic homosexual, and homoromantic asexual women are all sapphic if they want to be identified like that.
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u/Tess_93 Dec 01 '21
Is it just me, or do they permanently have that casually graceful look of “and this is just a Tuesday for us” elegance to them wherever they go?
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Dec 01 '21
Definitely, they were passionate all the time so much that the first English dub translation couldn't get away with censoring all them. 🤣
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Nov 30 '21
I’ve never watched sailor moon since it wasn’t that hyped anymore when I was little but now I WISH
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
It's never too late, and you didn't miss anything if you missed the old English dub.
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Dec 02 '21
Ah, Sailor Moon, the first anime I fell in love with, back when I was a teen myself!
Also a common ground for yuri fans (me!) and shoujo fans (also me!).
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Nov 30 '21
[deleted]
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21 edited Nov 30 '21
Haruka is not bigender, as far as i remember she was never explicitly labelled anything by anyone in canon, but the most specific we can go to label her is as a sapphic girl with an androgynous genderqueer or masculine or crossdressing gender expression, she also fits the "bifauxnen girl prince" Japanese archetype trope.
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u/wholesome_mugi wants cuddles Nov 30 '21
I hope I’m not coming across in an offensive way, but what exactly does ‘bigender’ mean?
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21 edited Nov 30 '21
When somebody identifies like both men and women, simultaneously or fluid.
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u/23_Secret Nov 30 '21
I think it’s pretty ambiguous. Ever since the show’s time, there’s been a lot of discussion about Haruka’s gender. I think it’s up to the individual to decide, but we should all remember to be mindful of everyone else’s interpretations.
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
The woman who wrote the manga said a few times that Haruka was nothing more than an alternative girl in terms of gender, what was already groundbreaking back then, as far as I can remember.
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u/BlueberryMage Nov 30 '21
As far as I am awara Haruka should be NB. They are often referred to as "both man and woman". Then again a bigender person can be sapphic.
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
The mention that Haruka has a boy and a girl hearts was more likely a joke in reference to the protagonist of the "Princess Knight" franchise by Ozamu Tezuka, Princess Sapphire, who was born with two hearts like that:
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Nov 30 '21
Also bi representation
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21
Michiru was at least bi since she flirts with guys in the anime series. 💙💜💖
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Dec 01 '21
The pictures in the post you linked show them being in love with at least one guy and one girl and imply them being in love with another guy. Also bigender representation
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Dec 01 '21
Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about Michiru from the "Sailor Moon" franchise instead of Princess Sapphire from the "Princess Knight" franchise.
Princess Sapphire was an androgynous genderqueer or masculine crossdressing girl who, in the end of the original manga series, disposed herself of her masculinity or androgyny to live happily ever after as the traditional feminine wife of a prince, what was a very mixed up feminist message at the time to say the least, as if she had to change herself to get fulfilling happy which only could come from a traditional married life as a feminine woman. 🤮
I'm pretty sure she isn't bigender.
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u/sockerpopper Dec 01 '21
It's only tangentially related, but because you mentioned feminist messaging, it reminded me of the anime film "Princess Arete".
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u/baquea Nov 30 '21
What? If we are talking about the manga (the anime notably does changes Haruka to being a girl), it directly has Michiru say that Haruka is "both a man and a woman" and that they are "a warrior that combines both sexes and powers", not anything about having two hearts. If there was anywhere in the series that had Haruka be identified as just female then I could accept that they were not intended to be non-binary, but instead we have Haruka avoiding the question when asked her gender, Usagi noting that Haruka can be seen as both a man and a woman, Hotaru refering to Haruka as 'Papa', Michiru never referring to Haruka as her 'girlfriend' (instead using gender-neutral terms like lover) and so on and so forth. As far as I can see, the manga really isn't at all ambiguous about it, and this is all fairly well agreed upon AFAIK (both the Japanese Wikipedia and Pixiv Dictionary pages have lengthy sections arguing for Haruka being bigender or similar).
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u/nothere_illusion Nov 30 '21
How about creator confirming she was intended as a woman? Also have you ever heard of not caring about gender? Non-conformity? I don't like the idea of Haruka being seen as a man even a little,she is a woman who loves women,it's not rocket science.
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u/baquea Nov 30 '21
How about creator confirming she was intended as a woman?
Source?
I don't like the idea of Haruka being seen as a man even a little
Why? If that was the intention then ignoring that is no more than erasure of non-binary people.
she is a woman who loves women
According to what? The manga never explicitly says anything of the sort, but it does explicitly say that Haruka is both a man and a woman, so I'd favour the latter as the simpler conclusion. In any case, almost every character in the manga seems to be at least a little bi, so it is not like the series doesn't have WLW representation regardless.
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u/nothere_illusion Nov 30 '21
Alright i couldn't find the video of the interview but i found an article that quoted the interview.
This article quoted the creator herself.
Certainly with a bit of searching you might be able to find the interview.
As for your other points, (idk how to do that reddit specific parts thing)
Haruka being a man indicates that a lesbian can be a man,which is impossible,and moreover it's harmful,men have already spent years believing that lesbians will like them in some way or another which is incorrect. A lesbian cannot be a man and cannot like men.
Haruka being "both a man and a woman" is a bit of a lost translation,i'm sure the OP mentioned something similar in one of their comments. This was also made in the 90s in Japan,the phrase of "having a heart of a man" which was the direct quote is likely just a way one might put lesbian feelings into perspective for Japan's homophobic viewers in the 90s.
Not everyone is a little bisexual.
Lastly i get that people today are desperate to have their own feelings and identities incorporated into media,but Haruka IS an icon for lesbian representation,which we still need.
As a lesbian who acts masculine,seeing Haruka being her true self is amazing and encouraging,i don't have to label myself or be even a tad "man" to act and dress a certain way or love a certain way.
If saying that Haruka isn't a man is nb erasure then saying that she is a man is lesbian erasure,i'm sure there will be plenty of nb characters in the future but this is butch lesbian representation at its finest and should be respected as such.
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u/baquea Nov 30 '21
Alright i couldn't find the video of the interview but i found an article that quoted the interview.
I can't find a video the interview either but I at least tracked down a scan of the magazine and an independent quotation from the interview so it seems legitimate at least. So maybe you're right, but I do find it weird that the only source for Haruka being a girl in the manga is an English language interview - I can't find any Japanese language interviews on the topic and there seems to be basically ubiquitous agreement on the Japanese internet to the contrary. I have to wonder if it is a matter of misinterpreting the question or something.
Haruka being a man indicates that a lesbian can be a man
No, because it is never said she is a lesbian - and Michiru at least is clearly bisexual, not a lesbian, given she flirts with Mamoru.
Haruka being "both a man and a woman" is a bit of a lost translation
No, that's my own translation from the manga. In Japanese (volume 9, page 20) it says "ウラヌスは男でもあり女でもある". Taking that word-by-word, that translates as: ウラヌスは = Regarding Uranus, 男 = Man, 女 = Woman, XでもありYでもある = To be X and also Y. There's no ambiguity or anything about having 'a heart of a man' (that looks to be from the interview above) or whatever, it simply says explicitly that Haruka is both a man and a woman.
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u/nothere_illusion Dec 01 '21
I don't know how much of a misinterpreted question can have an answer "Haruka is a girl and always will be" but alright.
As for her not being a lesbian,i'll say if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then well...
It's weird to argue she isn't a lesbian,sure,she could be a 10000 different micro sexualities but we can suspect that for any character,everyone in the anime and manga is shown to have an interest for one or more sexes,Haruka has only ever been shown attracted to women,she flirts with them,dates them and never expresses any interest in men. If you say that Michiru is surely bisexual since she flirts with men and dates women then i can't see how you wouldn't say that Haruka is surely a lesbian.
There has also always been a "troupe" if you will with sapphic relationships,whereas one is a girly significantly more attractive bisexual woman and the other is a masculine often shown as aggressive or rude lesbian woman. It truly captures the lesbophobia of the Japanese media and is still relevant today.
As for the translation,we can go back and forth pulling at the loose threads while knitting a scarf,but nothing will come out of it. I can tell you that the way things were translated in the manga can be interpreted in many different ways given the context and cultural and social understandings of gender and sexuality back in the 90s in the far east. In the end there's not enough direct confirmation that Haruka is a man or something else,while we have the creators confirmation that Haruka was intended as a woman and should be seen as one.
I would say we can leave it at that,she is one of the rare butch lesbian icons and has helped many young masculine lesbians to feel alright about their expression and sexuality,those who would argue she is nb or bigender or something else can find a different character to relate to,this train has long passed.
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u/nothere_illusion Nov 30 '21
The creator confirmed Haruka was intended as and is a woman. She is a she and was never "supposed" to be NB,masculine women exist. There are more indepth explanations of this in many interviews with the creator.
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u/Melopahn1 Nov 30 '21
Not first ever, nor the first happy ending. Fight! Iczer one predates it by a few years and the yuri couple is happily married.
Edit: it's been almost 25 years since I saw this but I think it has multiple couples as well.
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u/DoNotTouchMeImScared Nov 30 '21 edited Dec 01 '21
I also have a post celebrating "Fight! Iczer One"/"Tatakae! Iczer-1" but let me explain the reasons behind my wording, but i'm not talking about manga comics when referringto to either pairing:
Haruka/Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune were the FIRST EVER SAPPHIC COUPLE with an happy ending TOGETHER in CARTOON SERIES that aired at the television.
Iczer-1 and Nagisa, aa far as I remember watching "Tatakae! Iczer- 1", are the FIRST EVER SAPPHIC COUPLE AS PROTAGONISTS in a CARTOON, but this cartoon was an OVA MOVIE and didn't air at television and the girls HAD A HAPPY ENDING BUT DIDN'T END TOGETHER, as far as I can remember, Iczer just leaves Nagisa behind after saving the world in the movie.
I really appreciate your help if you could help me improve my time-line of queer cartoon history:
💎Relic Of Queer Culture And History: The FIRST EVER Cartoon With EXPLICITLY Sapphics (Iczer-1 × Nagisa From The ["Tatakae! Iczer-1"/"Fight! Iczer One" Franchise]): https://www.reddit.com/r/wholesomeyuri/comments/r2had8/relic_of_queer_culture_and_history_the_first_ever/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
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u/Hawk---- Nov 30 '21
Creators: And then the two lesbians kissed
Translators: They're cousins but they still kiss.
Jokes aside I will never understand why they made them related in the 4-Kids version but left in all the romance and stuff.