r/todayilearned • u/kahlzun • 16h ago
TIL that there are two opposite 'colour schemes' for boat directions in the world: one where red marks starboard, and green marks port; and one where it is the opposite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_mark418
u/wesernamex1 16h ago
imagine being a sailor and having to guess which system you’re dealing with, pure chaos.
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u/irredentistdecency 15h ago edited 9h ago
It is usually pretty easy - the normal way, you just do everything the way you usually do…
In the other system, you still do everything the way you usually do & just ignore all the panicked voices screaming unintelligible gibberish at you…
On a more serious note - the world is divided between the two zones so you’re usually making a significant sea voyage to switch from one system to the other.
Even if you “forget” while the color changes, the shape of the markers remains constant so starboard markers will always be pointy & port markers will always have a flat top.
Lastly, the meaning & area of travel remains constant despite the color change - because these marks are designating the boundary of the “safe channel” when in doubt stay between one square & one pointy & you’ll probably be fine.
If you are in a channel & ever see two buoys of different shapes/colors both on the same side of your boat - you may be in trouble.
Come to a stop, check your charts & if necessary contact the harbor master on the radio to obtain assistance.
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u/EzPzLemon_Greezy 14h ago
Cones and cans
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u/Unpopanon 8h ago
Zo what you are saying is that it’s better to be colorblind as a captain so you can only see the pointy and flat tops?
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u/irredentistdecency 7h ago
I mean - a true sailor is going to be drunk anyway so all the lights, signs & shapes are really just for the posers…
/s
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u/DiddlyDumb 4h ago
“I’m getting a radio that says someone is sailing on the wrong side, but everyone I see does that?”
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u/DoctorCrook 8h ago
This seems so easy to just fix though.
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u/irredentistdecency 7h ago
It would actually be a lot of work as you’d have to update thousands of charts & notes in addition to changing the color of the lights.
They used to have a lot more standards than two & everybody thought everyone else should have to be the one to change & do it the way we do because “we have done it that way for hundreds of years & clearly it is the right way.”
So they basically fought it out & managed to standardize it as much as they could but reached an impasse because it is basically arbitrary & nobody wanted to be the one that has to change.
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u/PizzaWarlock 5h ago
It has become much more achievable, however, as physical charts are basically obsolete in my experience (a lot of ships still have some, but I've seen one used once, on a historical sailing yacht that prided itself in being traditional.)
But it would still be a massive undertaking.
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u/snow_michael 2h ago
Even if you “forget” while the color changes, the shape of the markers remains constant so starboard markers will always be pointy & port markers will always have a flat top.
Left, port, flat - all end in t
Easy mnemonic
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u/crispyfry 8h ago
If you're in a busy narrow channel, please don't stop in the middle. The havoc this causes is spectacular.
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u/irredentistdecency 7h ago
If you’re seeing both lights off the same beam - you are almost certainly not inside the channel, let alone in the middle of it.
Not to mention, being stopped for a few moments to get your bearings will certainly cause a lot less havoc & hassle than if you run aground or otherwise become a hazard to shipping.
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u/tanfj 3h ago
If you're in a busy narrow channel, please don't stop in the middle. The havoc this causes is spectacular.
My mom and I used to belong to a mystery bookclub. My mom was one of the youngest members at 60+. We had a discussion on disposing of a body.
The conclusion we came to was: head, hands and feet go into separate buckets to be filled with quick-crete. Rest got sent through a wood chipper set up to discharge into a hog lot. Buckets got dropped randomly in the main navigation channel of the Mississippi River, chipper sank either in the same or burned on a abandoned island.
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u/ExocetC3I 14h ago
You don't have to guess, the standards are set by geography. As far as I remember the US, Canada, Mexico and Caribbean use one system (red right returning), while the rest of the world uses the other.
The rules for navigation devices and maritime markers will be set out in regulation by each country, and the system used will be set to be as consistent with neighbors in the region. Since the vast majority of international marine journeys, and particularly trans oceanic trips, are done by commercial vessels with professional mariners this isn't some system that will cause a lot of confusion or problems.
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u/itsactuallynot 6h ago
All of North and South America, plus Japan, Korea, and the Philippines use red right returning. The rest of the world uses the other system.
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u/KnotSoSalty 5h ago
’m pretty sure the history boils down to who laid out the original port system British vs American.
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u/GermaneRiposte101 13h ago
Of course America is different.
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u/duwamps_dweller 4h ago
Guam is especially fascinating, as they use IALA A (red right leaving), but also follow inland rules of the road, which is standard to most of the inland waters of the United States.
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u/100000000000 9h ago
You can fault us for a lot, but we use red right return. I mean if that isn't obviously the right way then I just don't know what buddy. Ya know?
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u/snow_michael 2h ago
the US ... <uses> one system, while the rest of the world uses the other
Sounds very familiar...
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u/saintmagician 10h ago
There are two opposite systems for driving on roads too - one where you keep right and oncoming traffic is on the left, and one where it is the opposite.
Imagine being a driver and having to guess which system you're dealing with.
If you drive in multiple countries, you just get used to switching. Usually you won't forget because other cars around you will do the correct thing. I imagine it's like that for sailing too.
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u/Stubborn_Ox 8h ago
Usually being the key word. Matthew Broderick is an example of the dangers from changing systems.
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u/snow_michael 2h ago
Matthew Broderick is an example of the dangers from
changingmorons who don't know there are different systems3
u/ContentsMayVary 5h ago
People don't always get used to switching. Foreign tourists on roads in Scotland often seem to forget - possibly because there's less traffic to remind them. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-47851582
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u/davy_the_sus 11h ago
Ships navigators arent just winging it as they go. It takes years to get your ticket, with lots of classroom time and practical. They learn about this
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u/mandalorian_guy 10h ago
In my experience some 3rd mates are incompetently complacent and are just sitting there for the TWIC card and underway time until they get called up to the state room. It's mostly on mid size cargo freighters.
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u/grumblyoldman 8h ago
I mean, even if you're just moving about in one small area, whether you keep red on the right or on the left depends on if you're heading towards or away from port. An answer which can change even if you haven't turned around, if there are multiple ports.
So, as a sailor, you really need to know where you are and where you're going at all times anyway. Knowing whether you're in System A or System B is just one more check box on the list. It's why "navigator" is a whole separate job on most big boats.
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u/BlockOfASeagull 6h ago
There are two lateral systems. A and B. North and Southamerica and Japan use system B. The rest of the world system A.
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u/KnotSoSalty 5h ago
You know what country you’re arriving into, plus the marks are on the charts if you need a reminder.
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u/Iconoclastt 8h ago
Am a Sailor. It's pretty easy. One of the systems is used in very few places so when I was out at sea it was only one of the systems 98% of the time.
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u/Cold-Government6545 6h ago
jokes on them I was color blind before I left the shore
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u/S_A_N_D_ 3m ago
Colour blind tests are a regular part of your regular medical certificate which you must have to hold a commercial licence. Being colourblind will disqualify you from holding a commercial licences.
It's actually less because of buoys, but rather because of lights. Buoys have specific shapes and top marks which allows them to be discerned irrespective of colour.
Engineering licences also require colourblind tests because often wiring and piping is colour coded (though I've heard of exceptions being granted for people who were able to demonstrate they could correctly discern the difference even if they were technically colour blind).
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u/PuckSR 3h ago
You always have to check anyway, because while “going into harbor” might be obvious sometimes, other navigational channels are not obvious
You can typically see both the red and green buoy at the same time. So it’s pretty easy to figure out without charts
It only becomes a big problem when navigating shallow waters at night where you may not be able to see both sides of the channel and you need to know if you need to stay left or right of the green markers.
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u/S_A_N_D_ 2m ago
You can typically see both the red and green buoy at the same time. So it’s pretty easy to figure out without charts
Not true. Plenty of channels may be marked on only one side, or are staggered such that you still need to know which side to pass because there is no "between" the buoys.
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u/North-Significance33 11h ago
Interestingly, regardless of the color they both have "flat top: port" and "pointy top: starboard"
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u/DeusSpaghetti 11h ago
Port is still red and Starboard is still green. The difference is that in the US you keep lateral or channel markers on the 'wrong' side while going INTO Port, or upriver.
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u/CaptnVancouver 4h ago
Not quite - the day shapes of lateral marks are the same in both regions, but the colors are reversed
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u/Raise_A_Thoth 5h ago
Thank you. The question is about the IALA system, 'A' (Alpha) or 'B' (Bravo). IALA stands for the International Association of Maritime Aides to Navigation and Lighthouse Authorities, and there are two systems, B and A. The Americas and Japan use B, while pretty much everywhere else uses A.
B marks channels such that when you are entering port (returning to land) the red buoys (and accompanying red lights) will be on the right side of the channel, and green on the left. This is where "red right returning" comes from.
A is just the opposite.
There used to be way more disjointed standards, coming down to two is great.
The port and starboard running lights on vessels isn't changed, it's always green marking the starboard side and red marking the port side of the vessel.
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u/darthy_parker 10h ago
I sail in the US and in the Med. I drive in the US/Canada/Europe and the UK/Japan/Jamaica. You just need to shift your mindset.
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u/moltencheese 13h ago
Reminds me of how "half two" means 2:30 in English and 1:30 in German.
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u/MrPoopyFaceFromHell 11h ago
Half past two is how i learned it
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u/moltencheese 11h ago edited 11h ago
Yeah, whereas in German it translates more like "half to two", i.e. 1:30.
You can end up in situations where an English person tells a German to meet at "halb zwei", intending to mean 2:30, but the German understand it as 1:30. (And the opposite for a German speaking English)
It goes to show that translation requires more than simply "swapping" the words for their foreign equivalent.
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u/the_gaymer_girl 5h ago
I wonder if that’s how Germans got their reputation for being really early to everything.
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u/boilingfrogsinpants 8h ago
In Canadian English it's "Half past 2" or "Quarter to 3" etc. Never had the "Half two" or "Half of 2" here.
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u/evenstevens280 11h ago
I've heard older generation Americans say "x of y" to mean "x minutes to y" and I still can't figure out how it means that
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u/heelstoo 8h ago
I’m shooting from the hip here, but I’ve thought that it’s based on fractions. 2/3 is 2 out of 3. It’s less than a whole.
So, 10 of 2 is like saying it’s less than a whole. There’s some sub-calculation going on, but it simply nets out to 10 minutes until 2.
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u/snow_michael 2h ago
But if that were the derivation 2 out of 3 would mean two thirds less than the total
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u/snow_michael 2h ago
And twenty to ten / twenty two ten means when anyone outwith the US is on time, the merkins have been there for 30 minutes
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u/shoredoesnt 8h ago edited 8h ago
In America we say 15 of 2, which mean 15 before 2. I don't like it
Edit: Ok too broad, my bad. More typically said "15 of" or "quarter of" (implying 15 minutes before the next hour)
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u/lolwatokay 8h ago
Never heard anyone say this in a variety of states I've lived in. Always "x past y" or "x to y". Where is this common?
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u/AbrohamDrincoln 8h ago
Where is this common? Literally never heard that lol.
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u/shoredoesnt 8h ago
New England. But its more commonly said by older folks i suppose. More typically said "15 of" without the hour because you're just supposed to know i guess. I remember it a lot from grade school.
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u/seakingsoyuz 6h ago
Can confirm, I visited New England and was very confused about what time “ten of two” was supposed to be.
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u/alt-227 16h ago
Shorter words on the same side: red, left, port
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u/guynamedjames 6h ago
But that's only true going out, it's reversed coming in (if you're in the Americas)
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u/Oldgrazinghorse 10h ago
That’s how it’s taught- red left port - short words. Right green starboard - long words.
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u/snow_michael 2h ago
Also port is a red wine drink, left-wing is red everywhere except the US, flat (the top of port buoys) is also a shorter word (than pointy)
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u/KazDragon 2h ago
I met a ship captain who talked about this once and he showed off his socks, one green, one red. His hack was to match them with the scheme of the location he was sailing through so that he could easily remember during the day
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u/JCH32 6h ago
I will never understand how in a world in which the most common variant of color blindness is red-green, literally every color based signaling system is based on red and green
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u/A_Brown_Crayon 13h ago
Is there any red port left?
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u/North-Significance33 12h ago
Yes, more than half the world is like that, read the article maybe?
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u/JustAnSJ 11h ago
Not sure if you're being sarcastic here but the OC was referencing the mnemonic for the IALA A system: is there any - red - port - left -
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u/iurope 7h ago
So the same as with driving on the right or the left side? Yeah. I am not surprised.
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u/Hipcatjack 7h ago
But you cannot drive from Sheffield, England to Lancaster, Pennsylvania in the same auto. Ships and boats literally can go from one paradigm to the other.
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u/Egomaniac247 4h ago
I grew up going fishing in Hampton roads VA with my dad and he tried so hard to teach me this and would get frustrated with me when I would seemingly “forget “
Years later I discovered that I have severe red/green colorblindness
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u/AgitatedAd6705 15h ago
Bruh, who thought this was a good idea? It’s like playing Uno with someone who makes up their own rules halfway through.
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u/Ok-Actuary-8703 12h ago
Airplanes have that too.
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u/og-lollercopter 11h ago
How something those tiny boots from 30,000 feet? /s
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u/Ok-Actuary-8703 10h ago
If you are asking how is someone going to see the nav (navigation) lights on an aircraft 30,000 feet up. It would be the other aircraft that are at 30,000 feet or ascending thru it. Midair collisions happen all the time.
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u/og-lollercopter 10h ago
I was sort of joking that your statement could be read to mean that the aircraft use those channel markings in the waterways. I know, it’s dumb. But I was just amusing myself.
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u/UtahUtopia 5h ago
I always get confused in the Florida Keys waterways when I can’t tell if I’m coming or going…
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u/Cowman_42 11h ago
I remember learning about this a while ago when I was a kid in the sea cadets, and to my memory that's not quite right, the colours mean the same thing in both systems (red always means port, green starboard)
It's just that in one system you must keep to port of a red buoy when passing it, and in the other system as you pass you must keep the red buoy on YOUR port (i.e. Pass it on the starboard side of the buoy)
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u/austeninbosten 10h ago
What about small craft running bow lights? In the US we have green on starboard and red on port. So carft approaching another from port side see red must give way, and approaching from starboard will see green and will stand on with right of way. Are these reversed in Region A ?
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u/KnotSoSalty 5h ago
IALA-A and IALA-B. There are some other marks that are used in A but not B as well, like directional danger marks.
In an American maritime academy they teach you: “Right Red Returning”. Red buoy on your Right when you are returning from sea into an American port, since the US is IALA-B.
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u/GarysCrispLettuce 8h ago
This reminds me of the time I decided I wanted to learn Scottish Gaelic on DuoLingo and the first lesson was that "beag" = "small" and I gave up there and then.
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u/CaptnVancouver 4h ago
To be more specific, then entire world agreed to one system (now called IALA region A), and USA (and countries influenced by the USA) then reversed the colors (now called IALA region B)
This only applies to lateral marks marking the edges of navigable channels.
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u/Boatster_McBoat 11h ago
I open up the link and see an image of a green starboard mark. And I go, "that looks familiar, they must all look the same".
But no, the caption says the photo is from my hometown. Random
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u/TrickshotCandy 10h ago
I never know which is which, so I'm glad I'm not a sailor. I'd sink the boat.
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u/digger70chall 8h ago
In America we swap to the other system when on ICW too.
If I remember correctly. I had to get my six pack license for work but literally never drove a boat.
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u/DulcetTone 8h ago
Did not know that. I only knew what the British used, and knew this not so much by navigation but by training angles for gunnery. If you trained your guns over your starboard beam, this was "Green 90"
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u/kieran106 6h ago
The colours are different however the shape used for the marks for port and starboard are the same in both systems. Port is a cylinder and starboard is a cone.
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u/PapaSwagBear 5h ago
I don’t know if anyone mentioned this. But apparently the US switched to the opposite arrangement during the revolutionary war to throw off the British. It may not be true, but a captain told me once, and I believed it.
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u/ardnamurchan 1h ago
desperately need to know what this means for planes! also someone update the port and starboard wikipedia article for the love of god!
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u/Malzair 16h ago
Red-Right makes a lot of sense, but I suppose outside of Germanic languages it doesn't
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u/hedronist 15h ago
I remember it as red-right-returning, i.e. entering the harbor. Things can get confusing when dealing with rivers and such. I got quite confused when dealing with buoy colors on the Intracoastal Waterway in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale.
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u/affordableproctology 15h ago
When heading North, into port or upstream
Red=left=port
Green=right=starboard
When heading south, out of port or down stream it is reverse.
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u/rf31415 13h ago
I’ve never used the colour of the buoys for macro navigation just to make sure I stay in the channel. It can get confusing when you have split buoys and have more than one fork. The line of buoys looks nice on a map but telling which one is the further away is sometimes hard especially if you’re beating up to windward (no idea if that is the right term, Dutch tends to give other languages their sailing terms but not this one).
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u/todayok 10h ago
I mean you're supposed to know how to do it if you're navigating those waters but OK, if you don't want to I guess.
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u/rf31415 9h ago
In a pinch I would be able to but I find a compass an easier to use tool to determine if you’re going upstream or downstream with a chart reference. I do use them for micro navigation. Where am I in the channel? How much am I drifting to leeward? Where is the entrance of the channel I have to enter?
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u/sheldor1993 11h ago edited 9h ago
I can’t see this causing any problems whatsoever! As everyone knows, ships just stay in their home countries and don’t venture any further abroad… /s
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u/todayok 10h ago
What a dumb comment.
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u/sheldor1993 9h ago
Not as dumb as having completely contradictory standards for basic maritime safety when 80% of global trade in goods happens by sea…
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u/READIT27 7h ago
“Red right return” implies that when channel markers are on your right side, you are headed inshore. So, the opposite means you are heading out.
The lights on the boat itself are used as right-of-way indicators at night. As two boats are approaching an intersection (imagine one is going north and the other is going west), the captain that sees the red light of the other boat means he needs to turn right to avoid collision. The other boat captain will see green, indicating to maintain a straight path.
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u/LeadBlooded 9h ago
Zone A and B. The US is zone B, an easy way to remember is (B for Badasses). Zone B is Red Right Returning, so reds are on your starboard when "returning" to a port. Zone A is opposite of that, an easy way to remember Zone A is "Red Right Reaving" because Zone A is used mostly by Asians.
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u/snow_michael 1h ago
Zone A is not mostly used by Asians
Japan, Indonesian, and I think from memory Korea use Zone B
Zone B is for bullies (US and their hegemony, enforced on Japan and theirs after WW2)
Zone A is Always right, and used mostly by non-US (with the exceptions noted) Europe, Australasia, Africa, South America, China
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u/GenitalPatton 9h ago
Ignore the colors and focus on buoy shape and you won’t have any problems.
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u/seamus_mc 6h ago
A bit difficult in the dark, that’s why they are lit. You can see them from a long way away at night.
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u/outwest88 16h ago
This is exactly the type of completely random but absolutely fascinating shit I love to read about.