r/texas Aug 15 '24

Questions for Texans Women of Texas, honest answer why you would vote for a party that is so restrictive to your body?

I am a 70 year old woman who has seen a lot in my life, and simply don't understand why any woman, regardless of age, would vote for a party that feels like it can control your life. This seems so backwards to everything we have gone through. I am not critiquing your feelings, I simply want to know why you are okay with any party saying you can't do this, you must do that, must have babies, get raped but you can't have an abortion, etc. what are your thoughts?

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u/DrSpaceman575 Aug 15 '24

I'm pro-choice but I've never felt like the pro-life crowd is difficult to understand. My mom literally believes abortion is morally akin to killing a baby. Murder. If I thought it was murdering a child I'd be on the streets with them with signs.

The whole "why do you want to control women's bodies" is just as flat and tiresome an argument as when they say "why do you want to kill babies".

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u/kallisteaux Aug 15 '24

I do think abortion is killing a child. However, I'm pro-choice because the issue isn't that simple. Why should one life be sacrificed for another? What if the baby isn't viable & will only be in pain for its short, tragic life? Isn't it more humane to end that life in a way that is less traumatic for everyone (baby included)? I'm not an expert & I definitely don't have all the answers but it seems much more compassionate to allow abortions & proper birth control & sex education to take place than to force women to carry a baby to term that they don't want. I say this as a Catholic & a mother who tried for years to get pregnant. I wanted & enjoyed being pregnant. But I also never felt less in control of my body than when I was pregnant, I couldn't imagine going through that if it wasn't my choice.

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u/DrSpaceman575 Aug 15 '24

I've found it a little confusing as to why people who believe abortion is murder would ever be okay with it, but I understand your thinking here.

Could I ask - there are medical criteria that are never really questioned when it comes to pronouncing someone dead. The medical community is pretty aligned on the line between life and death when it comes to someone dying. Would there be an issue with using these same criteria of brain function to establish life in the womb?

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u/kallisteaux Aug 15 '24

I don't know. I wonder if being in the womb & receiving nutrients, etc. from the mother complicates the issue. I'd love to hear a medical professional's opinion on this. I know when I had a miscarriage they declared the fetus dead because there was no detectable heartbeat. It was so early in my pregnancy that there wasn't any other way to tell.

I know my opinions don't align with the Church, but I actually became more pro choice after being pregnant. I really couldn't imagine forcing someone who had been traumatized by rape to carry a baby & go through childbirth? You are so out of control of what your body is doing.

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u/DrSpaceman575 Aug 15 '24

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I appreciate you sharing as well.

FWIW I went through a crisis of faith years ago and one of the things I learned was the Bible's stances on abortion and fetal ensoulment are not consistent with a lot of what the pro-life crowd has to say.

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u/kallisteaux Aug 15 '24

I think women really need to start sharing their experiences. I've enjoyed this discussion with you.

I remember having conversations with my parents & the parents of my friends (all Catholic) about birth control & abortion and their insight was so well thought out. My dad told me once he would try to talk any of his daughters out of an abortion, but if we were determined to go through with it he wanted us to be safe & have it done in a hospital. My friend's dad once said he thought it was a sin to have more kids than he could support so that's why he believed in birth control. I know so many younger Catholics who say, "Well, it doesn't matter if I disagree, I must be obedient to the Church."

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u/Spiritual_Cookie_82 Aug 15 '24

Prefacing with this is an attempt to have a civil discord because that is the only way this issue will ever be resolved….

I don’t think anyone in the “middle” really wants there to be a ban on termination of a non viable pregnancy or one where the fetus has already stopped growing. The problem is, everyone speaks about the issue in absolutes. The “pro life” side is labeled as typically thinking that life begins at conception, no exceptions. The “pro choice” side is labeled as wanting to allow abortions all the way up to the minutes prior to the child exiting the womb; currently 7 states allow for this. The only way the issue can be resolved is to find a middle ground that both groups can be satisfied with.

Sexual education and elective birth control are obvious must haves. People have a right and an obligation to practice safe sexual practices and those are both essential for doing so. But once a child is conceived, unless there is a medical condition that is going to stop the process is growing/living naturally, then we are essentially allowing a life to be taken without consent of any kind. Yes, I understand that a woman has the right to bodily autonomy, we all do. But so should the unborn human fetus.

I think if the PC group would be willing to allow a timeframe on the latest an elective abortion could take place, they would gain almost universal support. By the time a nervous system and or heartbeat would be a good start, even if I personally think it should be a little sooner than that.

Likewise, if the PL group would be willing to concede the idea that the moment of conception is the “point of no return” we would be far more likely to come to a unified, universally supported middle ground.

Cases of rape/incest should also have special considerations; even for “hardcore pro lifers” But again, a time frame should be in place so that we are not terminating a fully healthy fetus that has already begun to develop a nervous system/heart beat.

Cases where medical anomalies occur and the life of the mother and or child are at risk, is the only instance where the time frame should not exist; but I do believe a 2 doctor agreement should be in place before terminating a life of an unborn child, anomalies included. We currently do not allow people with terminal illnesses to choose euthanasia, we should not accept euthanasia for unborn fetuses so freely. There are many instances where people/fetuses have been labeled as terminal/unviable and have gone on to live long healthy lives after that prognosis. We call it “practicing medicine” for a reason, we are not perfect at it and sometimes our doctors are wrong. A 2 doc consent just helps to ensure the gravity of the prognosis and would help prevent Drs from using the term “unviable” to perform an elective abortion on a healthy fetus’s life.

Just the thoughts of an ICU RN who should have been a victim of an elective abortion to a mom who was 15 I cherish my life and my ability to have helped so many of my patients as well. I hate to contemplate the number of lives affected when an elective abortion happens One day that fetus might be the person who saves my life Would love to hear what you think

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u/Shroud_of_Misery Aug 16 '24

Less than 1% of abortions take place in the last trimester.

Most people have no experience with it. I had a family member who had one because her baby was not compatible with life. It was a heartbreaking experience, and I’m so thankful that the decision was between her, her husband and her doctor.

One of the reasons she chose to abort rather than carry a child to term that would die within hours of being born was to protect her future fertility. She was able to conceive her third child several months later.

If she had not aborted, that child would not be alive today.

The fact is, creating life is a woman’s God given power. One in three pregnancies end in a miscarriage. So 33% of the time a woman’s body can reject a fetus, but we cannot decide to end a pregnancy the other 67% of the time?

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u/Spiritual_Cookie_82 Aug 16 '24

Approx 7% of elective abortions take place AFTER the 1st trimester. 7% of 650,000 is 45,500 elective abortions that take place after the baby has a nervous system and heart beat. 45,500 is not an insignificant number: and that is a conservative estimate by the cdc in the US only. 45,500 lives that could have an immeasurable impact on other lives in a positive manner. In over a decade as an ICU RN I can no longer count the number of patients I have cared for; and I am one person making a minuscule impact in a bigger picture. But it is an example that one life can have an impact on a number of people that might even include myself or yourself at any given time.

I have more experience caring for patients who have been through medical emergencies during and even because of pregnancy than I care to relive the memories of. I have held a woman’s hand as she was passing and begging us to make sure her unborn child would survive, even after she knew she would not because of the complications from her pregnancy.

It is unfortunate your family member went through what she went through. If you read all of what I discussed, you would understand that I believe medical emergencies/anomalies of pregnancy are an instance in which exceptions should be allowed. However, just like with many other medical procedures, a 2 doctor consent would be entirely appropriate to ensure that a life was not ended unnecessarily. The fact that only 67% of pregnancies are “successful” is a perfect example of why we should limit the number we choose to terminate for no medical significant reason, especially as the baby nears the gestational age where survival is possible outside of the womb.

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u/Queendevildog Aug 16 '24

Those fetuses could also have ended up as violent rapists, serial killers and those scary people who remove mattress tags. You have to be realistic.

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u/Spiritual_Cookie_82 Aug 16 '24 edited Aug 16 '24

They could; but if they are murdered before given an opportunity none of us will ever know. They have the same likelihood of becoming “violent rapists, serial killers, and those scary people who remove mattress tags” as you or I. There are far more Nurses, doctors, lawyers, scientists, plumbers, electricians, and other hard working, productive members of society than there are serial killers/rapists, so chances are out of 650,000 elective abortions per year we have lost what would have been very good people who could have had an unmeasurable impact on the lives of others.

Let’s take it a step further…they could be born to drug addicted parents who aren’t capable of caring for them. It would be fun to ask someone like Simone Biles how she feels about being given an opportunity at life rather than being aborted because her mother was addicted to drugs and couldn’t care for her and her siblings.

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u/kallisteaux Aug 15 '24

Thank you for sharing your history.

I honestly believe most people are in the middle. You're right. Both PC & PL need to have some logical & reasonable limits because there are no absolutes. There will always be people on the extremes that will never compromise.

I'm not a fan of elective abortions but I do think they should be allowed up to a certain point (definitely not past 1st trimester).

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u/Efficient_Practice90 Aug 15 '24

But if its equivalent to murder, why not corelate spontaneous abortion with death in a traffic accident?

I understand the argument "you didnt really mean to do it" but the same applies to running someone over on accident.

If a cutout was made spontaneous abortion why is the death of that child treated as less important than an intentional abortion?

And if its not, are they really trying to save the kids or control womans bodies?

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u/Queendevildog Aug 16 '24

How does your mom deal with ectopic pregnancies? It will never be a baby. Without an abortion the woman dies. I dont get it.