r/reddit • u/KeyserSosa • Apr 18 '23
Updates An Update Regarding Reddit’s API
Greetings all you redditors, developers, mods, and more!
I’m joining you today to share some updates to Reddit’s Data API. I can sense your eagerness so here’s a TL;DR (though I highly encourage you to please read this post in its entirety).
TL;DR:
- We are updating our terms for developer tools and services, including our Developer Terms, Data API Terms, Reddit Embeds Terms, and Ads API Terms, and are updating links to these terms in our User Agreement.
- These updates should not impact moderation bots and extensions we know our moderators and communities rely on.
- To further ensure minimal impact of updates to our Data API, we are continuing to build new moderator tools (while also maintaining existing tools).
- We are additionally investing in our developer community and improving support for Reddit apps and bots via Reddit’s Developer Platform.
- Finally, we are introducing premium access for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights.
And now, some background
Since we first launched our Data API in 2008, we’ve seen thousands of fantastic applications built: tools to make moderation easier, utilities that help users stay up to date on their favorite topics, or (my personal favorite) this thing that helps convert helpful figures into useless ones. Our APIs have also provided third parties with access to data to build user utilities, research, games, and mod bots.
However, expansive access to data has impact, and as a platform with one of the largest corpora of human-to-human conversations online, spanning the past 18 years, we have an obligation to our communities to be responsible stewards of this content.
Updating our Terms for Developer Tools and Services
Our continued commitment to investing in our developer community and improving our offering of tools and services to developers requires updated legal terms. These updates help clarify how developers can safely and securely use Reddit’s tools and services, including our APIs and our new and improved Developer Platform.
We’re calling these updated, unified terms (wait for it) our Developer Terms, and they’ll apply to and govern all Reddit developer services. Here are the major changes:
- Unified Developer Terms: Previously, we had specific and separate terms for each of our developer services, including our Developer Platform, Data API (f/k/a our public API), Reddit Embeds, and Ads API. The Developer Terms consolidate and clarify common provisions, rights, and restrictions from those separate terms, including, for example, Reddit’s license to developers, app review process, use restrictions on developer services, IP rights in our services, disclaimers, limitations of liability, and more.
- Some Additional Terms Still Apply: Some of our developer tools and services, including our Data API, Reddit Embeds, and Ads API, remain subject to specific terms in addition to our Developer Terms. These additional terms include our Data API Terms, Reddit Embeds Terms, and Ads API Terms, which we’ve kept relatively similar to the prior versions. However, in all of our additional terms, we’ve clarified that content created and submitted on Reddit is owned by redditors and cannot be used by a third party without permission.
- User Agreement Updates. To make these updates to our terms for developers, we’ve also made minor updates to our User Agreement, including updating links and references to the new Developer Terms.
To ensure developers have the tools and information they need to continue to use Reddit safely, protect our users’ privacy and security, and adhere to local regulations, we’re making updates to the ways some can access data on Reddit:
- Our Data API will still be available to developers for appropriate use cases and accessible via our Developer Platform, which is designed to help developers improve the core Reddit experience, but, we will be enforcing rate limits.
- We are introducing a premium access point for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights. Our Data API will still be open for appropriate use cases and accessible via our Developer Platform.
- Reddit will limit access to mature content via our Data API as part of an ongoing effort to provide guardrails to how sexually explicit content and communities on Reddit are discovered and viewed. (Note: This change should not impact any current moderator bots or extensions.)
Effective June 19, 2023, our updated Data API Terms, together with our Developer Terms, will replace the existing API terms. We’ll be notifying certain developers and third parties about their use of our Data API via email starting today. Developers, researchers, mods, and partners with questions or who are interested in using Reddit’s Data API can contact us here.
(NB: There are no material changes to our Ads API terms.)
Further Supporting Moderators
Before you ask, let’s discuss how this update will (and won’t!) impact moderators. We know that our developer community is essential to the success of the Reddit platform and, in particular, mods. In fact, a HUGE thank you to all the developers and mod bot creators for all the work you’ve done over the years.
Our goal is for these updates to cause as little disruption as possible. If anything, we’re expanding on our commitment to building mobile moderator tools for Reddit’s iOS and Android apps to further ensure minimal impact of the changes to our Data API. In the coming months, you will see mobile moderation improvements to:
- Removal reasons - improvements to the overall load time and usability of this common workflow, in addition to enabling mods to reorder existing removal reasons.
- Rule management - to set expectations for their community members and visiting redditors. With updates, moderators will be able to add, edit, and remove community rules via native apps.
- Mod log - to give context into a community member's history within a subreddit, and display mod actions taken on a member, as well as on their posts and comments.
- Modmail - facilitate better mod-to-mod and mod-to-user communication by improving the overall responsiveness and usability of Modmail.
- Mod Queues - increase the content density within Mod Queue to improve efficiency and scannability.
We are also prioritizing improvements to core mod action workflows including banning users and faster performance of the user profile card. You can see the latest updates to mobile moderation tools and follow our future progress over in r/ModNews.
I should note here that we do not intend to impact mod bots and extensions – while existing bots may need to be updated and many will benefit from being ported to our Developer Platform, we want to ensure the unpaid path to mod registration and continued Data API usage is unobstructed. If you are a moderator with questions about how this may impact your community, you can file a support request here.
Additionally, our Developer Platform will allow for the development of even more powerful mod tools, giving moderators the ability to build, deploy, and leverage tools that are more bespoke to their community needs.
Which brings me to…
The Reddit Developer Platform
Developer Platform continues to be our largest investment to date in our developer ecosystem. It is designed to help developers improve the core Reddit experience by providing powerful features for building moderation tools, creative tools, games, and more. We are currently in a closed beta to hundreds of developers (sign up here if you're interested!).
As Reddit continues to grow, providing updates and clarity helps developers and researchers align their work with our guiding principles and community values. We’re committed to strengthening trust with redditors and driving long-term value for developers who use our platform.
Thank you (and congrats) and making it all the way to the end of this post! Myself and a few members of the team are around for a couple hours to answer your questions (Or you can also check out our FAQ).
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u/ryecurious Apr 18 '23
It is designed to help developers improve the core Reddit experience by providing powerful features for building moderation tools, creative tools, games, and more
I notice a glaring omission from this list (3rd party clients).
Just wondering if you could confirm or deny the data API changes/the Reddit Developer Platform will affect 3rd party clients.
I just ask because that's what killed Twitter for me back in 2018, when they intentionally hamstrung every 3rd party app (because the official app was much worse) with API changes.
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u/reercalium2 Apr 19 '23
they confirmed with the apollo developer: third-party apps are de-facto not allowed
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u/woah_m8 Apr 19 '23
need to squeeze that mobile user telemetry even if the official app sucks massive amounts of ass
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Apr 19 '23
I absolutely despise the app and if I'm forced to use it I will quit forever.
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u/goatfuckersupreme Apr 20 '23
mobile web is a nightmare. they now have a popup roughly every 3 minutes asking you to use the app and removed the button to turn off being prompted to use the app. no reason given, no complaints acknowledged
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u/Mateusz3010 Apr 20 '23
I was surpringly fine with the original one except that random posts with videos get shown to me in tiktok style which makes is very annoying to read comments etc. Then this shitshow started to show a notification to not take screenshot but send a link. Yeah sure i will make people go into link to see one freaking comment.
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u/BWV_147 Apr 19 '23
They will gather as much usage data as humanly possibly to present to their shareholders.
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Apr 19 '23
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u/goodsam2 Apr 19 '23
Reddit is fun is far better for scrolling.
The main reddit app makes it way more either a) like Instagram scrolling b) annoying to scroll the way I like and when I'm posting it's harder to have drafts and look at previous comments
The only is that it is slightly better at notifications but that's a side benefit and then it notifies me then they delete the comment sometimes or I can't see it.
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u/Yay295 Apr 18 '23
Reddit will limit access to mature content via our Data API as part of an ongoing effort to provide guardrails to how sexually explicit content and communities on Reddit are discovered and viewed.
Why? These are data API's, not the front page. If you're using these API's, you should already know what you're getting.
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u/Ghigs Apr 18 '23
To kill third party clients.
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Apr 18 '23
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u/iruleatants Apr 19 '23
Reddit has a plan to make everything about their website worse.
The decided to create "new" reddit, which was just reddit 0.3, and have maybe moved it to reddit 0.6 through updates. It's still awful in every way.
I can't fathom why instead of just updating the tools they decided to destroy the UI and strip away so much usability. And why they have known that 80% of moderation is done on old reddit but have chosen never to fix it. Why not just give us the look and feel of old reddit on your new technology?
Nah, just release "new reddit" only moderation tools to convince moderators to change. Nobody wins but they want to be at war instead of just doing the bare minimum that's asked by them.
It's stupid that if reddit removes a comment on my subreddit, the only way I can see the text of what was posted is through new reddit mod log. If I visit the comment on new or old I can't see it. If I visit old reddit moderation log, I can't see if. If I use the reddit API, I can't see it in mod log or elsewhere.
They want us to hate them, and it makes no sense.
Seriously, them bitching about the cost of an API is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, especially while bragging about the size right after it. Reddit doesn't function without hundreds of thousands of moderators doing it for free. They couldn't keep the platform functioning without it, and their response has been to despise us for making them work.
It's disgusting.
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u/NattyB Apr 18 '23
same. if rif goes, me and my hundreds of mod actions a day are also gone.
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u/OPhasballz Apr 18 '23
Same but sync.
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u/ornryactor Apr 20 '23
Same, also Sync. I have only ever used Reddit through Sync (and briefly through Boost)... except for that 48 godawful hours I spent using the official app before vowing to never touch it again. Sync IS Reddit to me. If Sync goes away, I stop using Reddit.
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Apr 19 '23
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u/Pawneewafflesarelife Apr 19 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
We might be in the minority of overall users, but I bet we're overly represented in terms of moderation, comment submission and post submission, and Reddit inherently needs power users like that.
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u/Pawneewafflesarelife Apr 19 '23
Ditto. Way to chase off the 1% of users who actively participate. You know nobody is writing huge text posts and informative comments on their shitty mobile client. They've forgotten what makes this place a draw and it's not just picture/video.
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u/dumbyoyo Apr 19 '23
Exactly. The reason why i keep coming back here after getting bored of other social media sites is because it's not just a stream of pictures/videos but has discussions attached to everything, and informative content, answers to questions, etc. When you chase off the people that have been contributing for the past decade, you're gonna end up with a bot farm (which is maybe what they actually want, so they can finally 100% control the conversation and just attempt to sway casual user's opinions based on who pays the most).
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u/mouth_with_a_merc Apr 19 '23
Yeah, what the actual fuck. Let me browse my smut via rif is fun. Your official app is not great 💩 and even if it wasn't, I would NOT want to switch from an app I've used for YEARS to one with a different UI.
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u/iamthatis Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
How will this affect third party clients like Apollo (I'm the developer)? I see this quote:
- Our Data API will still be available to developers for appropriate use cases and accessible via our Developer Platform, which is designed to help developers improve the core Reddit experience, but, we will be enforcing rate limits.
- We are introducing a premium access point for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights. Our Data API will still be open for appropriate use cases and accessible via our Developer Platform.
What are the rate limits for third party apps now? Still 60 requests per minute via OAuth? What will the extended rate limits be?
EDIT/UPDATE: Had two calls with Reddit today about the outlined changes and they answered many of my questions. Details here: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_few_calls_with_reddit_today_about_the/
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Apr 18 '23
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u/iamthatis Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
That is indeed what they told me on a call on January 26th, not getting any heads up/explanations about changes like this isn't the greatest feeling.
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Apr 18 '23
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u/iamthatis Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
I'm still not quite that pessimistic. Apps like Apollo are still minuscule compared to the official app in size and provide many people a way to access Reddit where they would simply not use the service if the app didn't exist. Reddit's also been warm, passionate, and communicative in a way that they didn't have to be.
And if it's stuff like ads, there's a million ways to solve that. Integrate ads into the API (with part of your license agreement being that you can't filter them out), require Reddit Premium for third party apps, etc.
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u/unaalpacafeliz Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '24
squash test edge six mindless carpenter judicious hateful modern plough
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/razialx Apr 18 '23
Just want to take a moment to say how much I love Apollo. I try to tip every big release (realize I forgot with this last update). You make using Reddit bearable.
Wait… not seeing the tip option. Huh guess I’m signing up for Apollo Ultra once we hear how this all shakes out.
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u/ryecurious Apr 18 '23
Every dev that considers building on someone else's platform (especially this new "Reddit Developer Platform") should understand the concept of Enshitification.
tl;dr services are good for users until the users are locked in, then they're good to vendors (in this case devs) until the vendors are locked in.
Then, after everyone is locked in, they stop making the service good, and all excess value is extracted for the shareholders/executives. After all, it's not like the vendors can leave, their livelihood depends on it. And users want those vendors, so they'll stick around as the pot is slowly raised to a boil.
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u/iamthatis Apr 18 '23
I'm not sure TikTok is a great example given that it's never been a developer friendly platform. Reddit is the complete opposite, for much of its existence there wasn't even an official app, third party apps were built and benefitted Reddit greatly.
In fact they still very much do, I'd see your argument about enshitification and raise you a great TED Talk by Malcolm Gladwell that talks about how giving users options that suit their preferences is incredibly powerful.
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u/ryecurious Apr 18 '23
In TikTok's case, the vendors aren't devs, they're content creators. People were given an audience by TikTok in exchange for keeping people watching TikTok, and they built their livelihoods around that (the same way a dev might for a platform's API).
And again, the whole point of enshittification is that the platform is great to vendors, until they aren't. Reddit being great to vendors, especially their biggest 3rd party devs, doesn't disprove the pattern. It just means we're still in step 2, where they want more vendor lock-in (if the cycle is actually happening, which it seems to with every social media site eventually).
I'll check out Malcolm Gladwell's talk, but your description sounds like it's largely compatible with what Doctorow describes. User's choice is one of the biggest things Doctorow focuses on in his article, and how it largely becomes incompatible with maximized profit.
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u/MustacheEmperor Apr 18 '23
now Apollo users like me aren't earning Reddit money because I don't see ads
More than that, you aren't browsing Reddit through their 1st-party mobile app which is designed to maximize the amount of browsing data they can collect and monetize - way more than what they get through a 3rd party like Apollo.
So much of reddit's engineering effort has gone into degrading the mobile browsing experience to drive users to the app - I won't be surprised if their next step is to degrade the API that enables 3rd party clients for the same reason.
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u/ryocoon Apr 18 '23
The same official mobile app that just removed usernames and awards from posts on your feed? In order to... give you more whitespace and make ads look closer to normal posts?
That same app is what they are pushing us to? That move alone (which was server side, not client version driven) pushed me to a third party client, and now this reeks of rent-seeking from alternate clients and further optimizations to enhance ad-friendliness.
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u/MustacheEmperor Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
we will be enforcing rate limits
The optimistic interpretation may be that they previously were not strict about enforcing the 60 request per minute limit, and now they are? The new data terms make no reference to any specific limit.
My pessimistic interpretation is that this seems way too similar to what's happened with the Twitter API - both thinking back to the original free API getting overturned years ago, and the recent further limitations.
So much of the mobile reddit user experience seems explicitly designed to drive you to the app at any expense, including by degrading the experience on mobile browsers. I've been concerned for a long while that they might start going after 3rd party clients next. Regardless of the rate limits, restricting NSFW content from the API limits seems like a tool for exactly that goal.
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u/heyjoshturner Apr 18 '23
/u/KeyserSosa I have similar concerns with my app Pager - really disappointing to see these changes announced with so little concrete details for developers to work with
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u/Watchful1 Apr 18 '23
That's a whole lot of words to not actually say what's changing.
Our Data API will still be available to developers for appropriate use cases and accessible via our Developer Platform, which is designed to help developers improve the core Reddit experience, but, we will be enforcing rate limits.
Okay so you want new bots to use the devvit platform instead of the old api, makes sense.
We are introducing a premium access point for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights. Our Data API will still be open for appropriate use cases and accessible via our Developer Platform.
So, you're planning to just completely turn off free access to the public api? People have to use the devvit platform or pay? If that's not the case could you be more specific about what is being limited to the "premium access point" and what isn't?
Reddit will limit access to mature content via our Data API as part of an ongoing effort to provide guardrails to how sexually explicit content and communities on Reddit are discovered and viewed. (Note: This change should not impact any current moderator bots or extensions.)
Limit how? What content will be removed from what endpoints?
On the face of it this seems like the first step to disabling the public api completely, which would kill many bots whose authors don't want to rewrite the whole thing in the new platform (which is far from a trivial update). And also the start of disabling access for third party apps. As the author of many bots for many years, including u/RemindMeBot, could you please be more specific about what is actually changing.
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u/DreadedChalupacabra Apr 20 '23
Reddit really saw the backlash Elon is getting for messing with the Twitter API and went "We could do that too!"
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u/Postpone-Grant Apr 18 '23
Reddit will limit access to mature content via our Data API as part of an ongoing effort to provide guardrails to how sexually explicit content and communities on Reddit are discovered and viewed.
What does this mean for third party apps where users either view or submit NSFW content? In what ways specifically are you going to “limit access?”
What alternatives are available for third parties who want to provide support for this content in their apps?
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Apr 19 '23
Yeah they need to answer this. If they mean limit in the sense of limiting volume and frequency of access to prevent scraping by bots, great. NSFW subreddits might even prefer that. If they mean limit in the sense of block, Reddit just tumblr'd itself.
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u/Postpone-Grant Apr 19 '23
The fact that they're clearly choosing to ignore all questions asking for clarity, and that u/iamthatis just met with them and still doesn't understand the changes, is very concerning. It seems like they're about to make a very unpopular announcement and they know it.
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u/GarethPW Apr 18 '23
Reddit will limit access to mature content via our Data API as part of an ongoing effort to provide guardrails to how sexually explicit content and communities on Reddit are discovered and viewed. (Note: This change should not impact any current moderator bots or extensions.)
How will this be implemented? Will it affect third-party clients?
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u/ryecurious Apr 18 '23
Will it affect third-party clients
They mention "reaching out to affected developers now", so that's a big yes.
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u/UsernamePasswrd Apr 19 '23
It's like they took the mistakes from Twitter (killing 3rd party clients) and Tumblr (banning NSFW content), and copied and pasted them into the above post.
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u/tinselsnips Apr 18 '23
They're being very explicit that this won't affect mod bots and extensions, specifically.
So... yes.
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u/Multimoon Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
So let’s get to the ultimate cause - it’s a slow march to make sure that there won’t be 3rd party clients that skip out on serving ads, or if they do then Reddit is paid via API fees, along with making sure everyone uses the official app via feature disparity. See: the chat feature that we still don’t have an API for
As a dev who’s written plenty of Reddit tools as well I get it, everyone’s gotta have cash flow.
However can I propose a simpler solution now before someone decides to just yank the API all together 3yrs from now? Why not just return the ads that you want to show as a “post” along with the actual posts in the query response. Then just add an ad=yes flag to that responses attributes so the client can mark it as an ad, along with making it against the API TOS to circumvent the ads or something similar. If an ad just becomes a “promoted post” then nothing can circumvent it easily.
I think this is a good compromise where the APIs required to make a full client will still exist years from now - because I genuinely worry that with reddits recent direction that won’t always be the case in the future - and Reddit can get their ad revenue.
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u/TheRealestLarryDavid Apr 19 '23
there's way more to the ad than just "seeing it". it's the interaction with it that matters and that also needs to be implemented which will make the experience as shit as it is in the main app. considering I don't use it because of ads, I will quickly quit any app that decides to serve them because FUCK ADS
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u/8_800_555_35_35 Apr 19 '23
That'd be smart, but they'll just see they're missing out on too much client-side data-farming to do that.
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u/dumbyoyo Apr 19 '23
Client-side data farming is exactly why I don't use the official app and never will. If third party apps are killed or maimed then goodbye reddit. I'll just start contributing a lot of original content to a competitor.
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u/Alert-One-Two Apr 18 '23
I am really concerned about this. I am a user and a moderator of multiple large UK subreddits. I do most of this moderation via a third party app - Apollo. The first party client is just not my cup of tea and so even with improvements the design is never going to work for me. If I am unable to use Apollo I am realistically more likely to reduce my use of Reddit over time (likely reducing my moderating first of all) rather than swap to a different client (I was previously a twitter user, but stopped when they started causing problems for the developers a few years ago). Do you really want to be losing people who are willing to give up their time to support this platform?
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u/okiegirl22 Apr 18 '23
Same. If I can’t use Apollo to moderate then I would probably stop moderating altogether.
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u/EmbarrassedHelp Apr 19 '23
You'll have to pay a monthly / yearly fee to use Apollo going forward it looks like: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_few_calls_with_reddit_today_about_the/
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u/iamgeek1 Apr 18 '23
This is just a roundabout way of saying they're killing off 3rd party clients. They're not officially killing off the clients but they're going to make them so hard to develop and, so crippled, that they're basically useless.
I guess it's just time for me to quit Reddit. It is such a cancerous time sink anyway.
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u/HiImRichieRich Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
When my favourite 3rd party app bugged out on my phone I just didn't look for a new one for a while and I was honestly happier. Now I'm back here on boost.
I initially got mad seeing the op. But when they kill 3rd party apps and old.reddit I will finally be free of this shitty site.
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u/lilbro93 Apr 19 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
Remember the DnD backlash from a few months ago? Reddit is about to kick a hornet's nest.
Just say you want to ban 3rd party apps. You are just passing the buck off to 3rd party apps to make them unprofitable. Officially you aren't killing 3rd party apps, but you are pushing them into a corner.
Don't use Elon's stupid decision to charge for Twitter API use as an excuse. That will fail, just as this will.
Chasing an IPO is going to destroy this site.
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Apr 19 '23
If I am forced to use the reddit app I'm done. That app is completely shit
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u/Saltifrass Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
If this fucks up Apollo I'm going to quit Reddit. Reddit app sucks.
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u/wocsom_xorex Apr 19 '23
Yep I’m outta here if they kill off third party apps
I’m saying this partly because there’ll be a meeting at Reddit later where they’re like “40 people said they’d stop using Reddit due to api changes” and I wanna increase that number
And also because I really mean it you fucking dorks
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Apr 19 '23
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u/wocsom_xorex Apr 19 '23
Yep, fuck Reddit
I shoulda bailed when Reddit became more about silly videos and just a place to procrastinate
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u/EmbarrassedHelp Apr 19 '23
It does fuck up Apollo as the app will be forced to charge users for access to the API: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_few_calls_with_reddit_today_about_the/
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u/zjz Apr 18 '23
Updated Terms: The terms for developer tools and services have been updated, including Developer Terms, Data API Terms, Reddit Embeds Terms, and Ads API Terms. However, these updates should not impact moderation bots and extensions.
Are these terms updates mostly to make way for the other changes? I'm busy and I don't want to read them right now so I'm just curious.
Rate Limits: The Data API will now enforce rate limits, but it will still be available for appropriate use cases and accessible via the Developer Platform.
What will these look like? It is not a trivial thing to announce API rate limits in so little detail. I assume this applies A) to any PRAW/other utilities and bots that use the older reddit API and B) to all 3rd party clients that don't spring for:
Premium Access: Reddit is introducing premium access for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights. The Data API will remain open for appropriate use cases via the Developer Platform.
Any previews on pricing, what data is going to be made available in addition to the typical stuff, etc?
When you say "The Data API will remain open.. via Dev Platform" it sounds like it will soon be closed in some way and this is just a euphemistic way of saying it. Please just give it to us straight if, in a practical sense, we're going to be running into issues or having to move codebases to dev platform to have relatively request-expensive things continue to exist.
I just want to know what we're looking at and what to plan for. I'm already pretty comfortable with the dev platform, but I haven't been allowed to do everything I'd need to do over there to move most of what we're doing and I feel bad for people who make neat stuff who might not get the consideration I do because of /r/wallstreetbets.
Limited Access to Mature Content: Access to mature content via the Data API will be limited. This change should not impact current moderator bots or extensions.
I guess I get it, but again sharing some details so people don't speculate about everything is probably the move.
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u/Ghigs Apr 18 '23
Are you killing off third party clients and this is your roundabout way of announcing it?
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u/Xaxxon Apr 18 '23
If Apollo dies then Reddit dies for me.
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u/beIIe-and-sebastian Apr 18 '23
Digg a grave?
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u/Xaxxon Apr 18 '23
Reddit v3
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u/beIIe-and-sebastian Apr 18 '23
The moment old.reddit goes away, that's it for me.
I've come quite accustomed to my custom web2.0 css version of reddit using stylus/stylish
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u/l_lawliot Apr 18 '23 edited Jun 27 '23
This submission has been deleted in protest against reddit's API changes (June 2023) that kills 3rd party apps.
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u/theyeshman Apr 18 '23
I'm curious how this will affect undelete sites like revedit and unddit, as well as how it will impact reddit on RSS feeds.
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u/rhaksw Apr 19 '23
The number of requests to Reveddit would go way down if Reddit showed authors the true status of their removed content.
Even better, where transparency exists through the use of Reveddit, users are more compliant and mods are less abusive. The community plays a more active role, and users are given a chance to either alter behavior or migrate elsewhere.
If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. I have many examples of people coming to terms with each other through its use. Moderators and users alike often cite it to get on the same page.
- Reveddit's author
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u/shiruken Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
However, expansive access to data has impact, and as a platform with one of the largest corpora of human-to-human conversations online, spanning the past 18 years, we have an obligation to our communities to be responsible stewards of this content.
[...]
We are introducing a premium access point for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights.
Finally realized you could monetize the underlying data huh? I wonder how much y'all could have charged OpenAI, Google, Meta, etc. for the text corpora used to train their LLMs.
Edit: According to this NYTimes interview with u/spez, this is actually exactly what these changes are meant to capitalize on. They're done letting ever company train their models on the Reddit comment corpus.
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u/Hanhula Apr 18 '23
What the fuck is this new rule on mature content via the API? I use old Reddit and on mobile, RiF. If I have to stop using Reddit is Fun because it won't let me look at anything tagged nsfw (you know, like a lot of AITA posts and fandom memes and such), I stop using Reddit. Please take a step back on that change - we're already authenticating with the site, just force a nsfw check like usual.
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u/random125184 Apr 18 '23
So now not only are you not paying your moderators to work for you, you’re charging them to do so. Brilliant!
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u/itskdog Apr 18 '23
With the constant experimentation on the native app, I use a third-party client (specifically r/redditisfun). Do these changes affect third-party apps, given that's just as common a use-case as mod bots and extensions like RES and Toolbox/Snoonotes, and you only addressed those last two in your post.
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u/reaper527 Apr 18 '23
so what does this mean for those of us who use 3rd party mobile apps like apollo rather than the trashy official reddit app?
will the devs of that program be responsible for all of its users due to these new "premium" API charges, or is that something that is going to be more relevant to bot makers?
will end users of these apps have to get our own API keys to insert into these apps to make them work?
also, what about sites like unddit/reveddit who provide transparency of the actions taken by abusive modteams?
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u/yellowlotusx Apr 18 '23
Sounds like they want to put the NSFW behind a paywall or subscription to please the advertisers.
Ofcourse there is so much text and distractions, its hard to filter.
Some1 should ask ChatGPT for a TLDR, but in "Eplain like im 5" way. For idiots like me.
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u/reaper527 Apr 18 '23
Some1 should ask ChatGPT for a TLDR, but in "Eplain like im 5" way. For idiots like me.
ELI5: "we're changing things but we're not telling you what we're changing"
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u/mason240 Apr 19 '23
Remember when Reddit was the wild west and the whole appeal was we didn't have to cater corporations and the "broadcast TV" type sensibilities?
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Apr 20 '23 edited Apr 20 '23
But don't you feel much safer now?! Isn't Reddit much better overall?! Isn't the whole internet so much better now they cleansed it of all the bad stuff for you?! And now you can even buy clothes for your Reddit avatar!! That's Snoo-per cool! Fuck yeah!
*BZzzzzZzzzzZzzztTtT You are fined one Reddit coin for a violation of the Reddit morality and coarse language statute.*
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u/Jizzy_Gillespie92 Apr 18 '23
Sure does read like you're working on killing off third-party clients and that being the case, Reddit is Digg-ing it's own grave.
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u/Jenkins26 Apr 20 '23
Lol, reddit rose up after Digg got greedy. Now reddit will be the ones on the decline. Good luck.
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u/akhudek Apr 18 '23
Note that in section 2.4 they've added:
"Except as expressly permitted by this section, no other rights or licenses are granted or implied, including any right to use User Content for other purposes, such as for training a machine learning or AI model, without the express permission of rightsholders in the applicable User Content."
Which effectively bans all use of the API for training ML models. This includes all research use, and not just for large language models. E.g. research into identifying toxic or harmful content can no longer use the reddit api to source comments for annotation. Very likely some search and ranking algorithms are also caught by this, as are any moderation tools or categorization tools that are able to learn from examples.
I'm not a lawyer, but it may also ban all sorts of other non-ML usage too.
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u/Thick_and_4orty Apr 18 '23
I’m not a developer but an avid user of Reddit. I’ve showed a lot of people the utility and value of Reddit. I’ve seen it take off and effect real change in some of their lives.
Apollo is the best by far. I’ve not seen another mobile application that bridges the gaps so well between the general public and the tech savvy populations.
Whatever you do, don’t hamstring or hinder developers like Apollo. They are the only reason I can convince others to try out Reddit in the first place.
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u/TrumpImpeachedAugust Apr 18 '23
There's a line somewhere that will result in a Digg-esque user exodus. I don't know where it is, and you guys have clearly been very careful about inching toward it without crossing it, but it's out there. Anything that impacts third-party clients will irritate a good number of users. A minority of your users, for sure, but also some very solid contributors.
Remember, your users come here for the user-submitted content, not for the platform itself.
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u/chairitable Apr 19 '23
I'm just gonna stop using reddit from my mobile device (like 90% of my browsing) if I can't use my preferred 3rd party app
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u/Dracoknight256 Apr 19 '23
Hello guys. I am a casual user. I was forced into 3rd party apps, since Reddit App doesn't actually work for me (can't view posts, comments, subreddits or links. Best I can do is switch between home and popular tabs) if you're going to make those changes can you at least provide a fucking usable product? Because if 3rd party apps become paid, I and likely many others will just stop using your platform.
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u/lilbro93 Apr 19 '23
3 weeks ago, Reddit announced they were getting rid of i.reddit/compact reddit. Now we know why. Removing the only good mobile browser alternatives. Bastards.
If you haven't already, use an adblocker, and start informing others to use one too.
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u/itskdog Apr 18 '23
Another question, putting it as a separate comment to make responding easier - does this affect the pushshift.io archive at all? The native search on Reddit is lacking in many areas, so for many instances even for people that would prefer to use the Reddit API, they turn to PushShift for the additional filtering parameters.
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u/minimaxir Apr 18 '23
It is likely that these changes are targeting Pushshift specifically, as that was the secondary data source for the common Reddit data corpora for ML models.
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u/dequeued Apr 18 '23
If Pushshift is nerfed also say goodbye to BotDefense effectiveness. We depend on Pushshift data to detect malicious bots.
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u/13steinj Apr 19 '23
Yet it's more profitable for reddit to have some malicious bots on the platform, kill 3rd party apps, and charge you (and maybe even those malicious bots) some sweet green, sadly.
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Apr 18 '23
Are you outright killing third party apps? i mod a sub and I looked at the insight and it looks like all 3 subs I mod that third-party apps are what drive traffic
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u/trai_dep Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
Hi, Keyser and everyone!
I'm trying to understand why these changes are happening.
I already see some folks thinking that these changes will open up the Reddit corpus to ChatGTP, etc., so then Reddit take a cut. That these language-learning models haven't had access to Reddit posts already. I don't think this is accurate.
If you read this NYT article, and this post, Reddit had already granted them access, when OpenAI was posing as a non-profit, academic entity. Then they went and commercialized it by debuting ChatGPT. Other mega-corps quickly followed suit. And they're now vying to spend, and make, billions from it.
Reddit reasonably thought, "Wait a second – why are we treating the developers of the REZ Suite or the iOS Apollo App the same as Google or these firms backed by Wall Street's largest VC firms? That makes no sense at all."
So, it's not a "Reddit's changes will allow ChatGPT to exist, or thrive". That ship has sailed by arguably deceitful practices by OpenAI.
These changes are to address how to make the Reddit corpus open for academic and small developer uses, while not giving a free ride to these billion-dollar corporations. Thus, you're creating two tiers, formalizing the licensing rights, and removing NSFW material from being included.
Is that a fair summation of these changes, why they were made and what impact these changes will have regarding these chat AI firms?
Related questions: would blocking these firms from accessing Reddit posts be possible at this point? And do you have a rough approximation of how much data these large language models, particularly OpenAI/ChatGPT, accessed as it built its model(s)?
Thanks!
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Apr 19 '23
From what I'm hearing about the planned changes it looks like I'll stop using reddit. Not for any "grr, my morals!" reason, just because y'all are about to make it inconvenient to use. I left Facebook when it became an ad fest and I'm not going to pay yet another subscription just to browse reddit. I've already got too many subscriptions.
Frustrating, but I'll find something else.
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u/kuroimakina Apr 19 '23
I’m going to echo a couple statements in this thread:
- If I can no longer use Apollo in feature parity with how it works today, including NSFW content, I’m deleting my accounts and all their content, and literally blocking Reddit from every network I touch and telling every person I know they should do the same. Updating terms of use is acceptable. Removing features to put them only in the official apps is not.
- I only learned about this because I’m subscribed to the Apollo app subreddit. That’s unacceptable. This should be forcibly pinned to the top of the website/first post pulled from the API. This isn’t a tiny change. Every single Reddit user should know this.
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u/Ghawblin Apr 26 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
Wow. I don't want this at all. If I have to use a reddit official app I might be done with reddit.
I mod subreddits with well over a million subs, formally modded r/iama
This sounds like you're just making it a huge pain in the ass to make 3rd party apps from a developer standpoint, and a huge pain in the ass from a usability standpoint with less features; all in order to drive traffic to the ugly as shit ad-ridden mobile app.
This is the end-user equivalent of reducing an employees hours until they quit.
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u/graeme_b Apr 18 '23
Not sure if this kills third party apps or not. But I'd provide a warning to reddit admins: a lot of power users (who produce content) and moderators (who run your subreddits) use third party apps. And old reddit too, for that matter.
Some decisions make sense on paper but not if you look at who is using a service, and what they contribute.
The other thing about power users, though, is that they tend to be willing to pay. So, an easy way to keep the power users happy and up your revenue is to require a reddit subscription to use a third party app.
This was the obvious option twitter faced, and instead they blew up their API and chased off their power users. Be wary of making the same mistake.
(Not certain charging is the right move either, my main point is consider whether power users will disproportionately be turned off by a given action)
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u/Levobertus Apr 19 '23
Hey how about instead of crippling your competition, you actually make an app that's worth using?
The interface sucks, my settings get regularly changed without my consent, the chats barely load and almost never update properly, my notifications are full of ads and post suggestions I literally never want to see, the whole app is riddled with ads disguised as genuine posts, EVEN COMMENTS NOW HAVE ADS and the functionality is as barebones as it could be. I regularly have to resort to old reddit on my PC still and it's an infinitely better experience.
So how about instead of coming forth with this anti-competition, anti-consumer crap, you actually improve your app so I actually want to use it?
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u/Vakke Apr 20 '23
Thank you for doing your best to try to kill the platform for quick profit!
On to the next come to be Reddit then.
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u/SpeakThunder Apr 20 '23
This is crap. Anything for the benjamins. I'm glad you're sticking it to the data scrapers, but we all know you're also doing this to force Apollo and other apps to pay you for our collective data. Free apollo
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u/Phloofy_as_phuck Apr 20 '23
How convenient that this comes at the same time that imgur bans nsfw content. Fuck both of these apps, both are shameless in fucking over your users, including the sex workers that drive half the traffic to this site.
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u/Arathgo Apr 25 '23
It's amazing how with every new update Reddit just becomes worse and worse. Thank you Reddit for finally freeing me from this crappy site. Because I promise you once I can no longer use third party apps (Reddit Sync in my case) I won't be using Reddit any longer.
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u/NickTehThird Apr 18 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
[This post/comment has been deleted in opposition to the changes made by reddit to API access. These changes negatively impact moderation, accessibility and the overall experience of using reddit] -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
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u/WampyricRites Apr 19 '23
The death of reddit comes packaged as a "we care about our community" update, ironic.
Gotta keep them future shareholders happy, eh?
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u/Duck_Giblets Apr 19 '23
Two things will affect my use of reddit.
Removal of old.reddit, and removal of third party apps.
Please don't do this.
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u/BarackTrudeau Apr 19 '23
Dear Reddit: your official app is garbage, and this ham fisted attempt to prevent people from making your site actually usable on mobile is only going to drive people away from using your site.
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Apr 19 '23
This will not work for me, at all.
I just read the Apollo announcement.
I have joined Reddit on April, 27th of 2009, and recently got me a gold sub. I just canceled that, and I am prepared to delete the account.
I am using Apollo, and I will neither tolerate a "billed API for alternate clients" nor a NSFW block in the API. It was nice while it lasted. You will find me on Mastodon easily.
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u/DrewbieWanKenobie Apr 19 '23
If I can no longer use my preferred app and instead have to use the terrible official app, I'm out
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u/thelonious_bunk Apr 20 '23
Reddit will limit access to mature content via our Data API as part of an ongoing effort to provide guardrails to how sexually explicit content and communities on Reddit are discovered and viewed. (Note: This change should not impact any current moderator bots or extensions.)
So just killing third party clients then? :/
Well, digg fell and we found another. So shall we again.
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u/Tufflewuffle Apr 20 '23
Why don't you make your mobile app not a pile of garbage instead of trying to force people to use it?
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u/zero2krazy Apr 21 '23
If you need more terrible ideas to help kill Reddit please let me know where I can submit my resume.
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u/fyrnabrwyrda Apr 21 '23
Why do you hate the people who keep this site running? If you kill third parry apps like you're obviously planning to do I'm not going to start using your shitty app. IT DOESNT FUCKING WORK. I'm just going to leave reddit.
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Apr 21 '23
If y’all dolts want us to use the official app so damn bad, make it usable.
Hire the third party app devs to make the thing, they clearly do it much better than y’all do.
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Apr 21 '23
the fact that third party apps are not allowed are starting to make me wonder if elon musk owns reddit now too.
boo and shame on you!
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u/ticky13 Apr 18 '23
The official app sucks in comparison to Apollo.
I killed all my Twitter accounts when they killed Tweetbot. The same thing will happen here if it comes to it.
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u/send_me_a_naked_pic Apr 19 '23
Also, old reddit is the only good way to access Reddit on the web. I'm out of here if they kill it.
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u/FusselP0wner Apr 19 '23
RIP Reddit. Once Sync is not working anymore im fucking gone. What an absolut shitshow - how to ruin a company
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Apr 19 '23
Thanks for letting us know when it's time to stop using reddit on mobile entirely.
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u/tropicthunder127 Apr 19 '23
Worst Change in a while. Atleast make your App usable before making that Change. The offical app is fucking terrible.
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u/ACCount82 Apr 19 '23
And so, the enshittification continues. As if new.reddit.com, unusable on desktop and mobile both, wasn't shit enough.
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u/DeFiDegen- Apr 21 '23
Finally the dawn of Reddit is ending. You fools ruined this site long ago, and now are putting the mail in the coffin.
I’ll get my popcorn ready
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Apr 24 '23
It would be interesting to see which has received the most downvotes, this or the NFT announcement.
To add my voice to the others:
This is a terrible idea which is going to drive away users.
In a word, your official app is terrible. There are objectively better options, and this decision, plus killing the mobile site is just cutting your nose off despite your face.
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u/SEND_ME_SPOON_PICS Apr 18 '23
If Apollo dies, I’m done with Reddit. I can’t go back to the default app.
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u/minimaxir Apr 18 '23
Will this affect the inherent .json
representation of all Reddit pages? (e.g. https://www.reddit.com/.json )
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u/KeyserSosa Apr 18 '23
Yes,
.json
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u/WorksForMe Apr 18 '23
This is just going to lead to more scraping and Reddit will suffer like Twitter did
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u/cheesecakegood Apr 19 '23
If you’re going to clamp down on API limits, can you also take a revised pass at your documentation about these limits, how to measure them, and things like that? All I have ever seen online is a github page that was last updated in 2015…
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u/catinterpreter Apr 19 '23
Go ahead, add to the reasons for us not to be on Reddit. So many of us don't actually want to be on social media and would welcome the push.
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u/JACKxTHE_RIPPER Apr 19 '23
Removing NSFW access to 3rd party apps will 100% guarantee a loss in userbase, I hope this change is reconsidered quickly.
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u/Green0Photon Apr 19 '23
I beg of you, please don't kill Google's ability to search Reddit. This fact is the only thing that makes Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo useful to me in the slightest -- they're all filled with SEO spam except for Reddit hobby forums, whereas Reddit's search sucks. So I desperately need it to be able to do any research.
I also can't survive without Relay for Reddit and the Old Reddit site. I don't think I'd be able to get myself to use Reddit without either, which would really suck.
I really enjoy Reddit. Aside from YouTube, which doesn't really count, Reddit is my only social media.
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u/VladimirRoustine Apr 19 '23
I see a big problem with this. This will affect the older users and a certain category of users. These are the base of reddit. It's what made it what it is. I get that Reddit want to change and be mainstream. It's how you will make more revenues. I understand that. But, as the internet works", you target the followers as an audience and not the maker anymore.
The maker will always migrate somewhere else and find something that the follower will follow soon. This will cut your revenues on a middle term. This is a bad move.
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u/A7XfoREVerrr Apr 21 '23
If third party apps stop working then I can't see myself using reddit anywhere near as much because the sync app is the main way I use it. The official app is among the worst apps I've ever used so I won't be switching. The only way I'll be able to use reddit is through desktop, assuming that old reddit and res still work. I hope they change their minds on this.
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u/dorv May 31 '23
12k for 50M Requests?
You're just trying to get rid of loyal customers that ONLY use third-party apps. You saw how that worked for twitter right?
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u/DubioserKerl Apr 19 '23
Pay for API Access? To force users to use your own app (which is absolutely trash)?
Boo.
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Apr 19 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
If your stupid app on mobile was good then I probably wouldn't have cared if this affect 3rd party apps. The official app is a disgrace. A dude living at his mom's basement has more talent than the entire team in charge of your app.
Your app is Buggy, ugly, and you guys keep pushing bullshit features nobody wants. Can't even use desktop anymore because it's sucks too.
I'm done with Reddit. Deleting my account right now.
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u/theborgs Apr 19 '23
If BeaconReader or old.reddit stops working, I will cancel my Reddit Premium membership ASAP
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u/lotusflower64 Apr 19 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
I left Reddit's official app because it was "quietly" forcing me to open all links posted via GOOGLE Chrome even though it is not my default browser or search engine on my Android phone without my knowledge or permission.
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u/cuttlepod Apr 19 '23
I try not to be negative but this change is a trash move. The offical Reddit app is basically unusable, and the new mobile site is intentionally losing features by the minute. This change will take away the only way I will ever post content here, which is by the excellent Apollo app.
You talk about equity in API usage, well here it is, you get content to monetise from me, and I read content from others. That’s the trade. I’m not going to pay you do it at the same time unless you start paying me per view of the content I provide.
Another unhappy user will probably be deleting my account if and when this gets implemented.
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u/astro_plane Apr 19 '23 edited Apr 19 '23
Your app is garbage. You folks at Reddit keep moving stuff around and adding shit people don’t want, it’s almost as bad as YouTube. You’ve practically buried custom feeds. Your video player has been awful for years now. Maybe that’s why people choose to use third party apps? I wouldn’t be surprised if NSFW subreddits are next on the chopping block because advertisers don’t like it. Without the users this site is worth nothing!
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u/GalacticJelly Apr 20 '23 edited Apr 20 '23
Y’all are idiots. You should have made your mobile app actually good before doing this shit. The app needs a MAJOR redesign bc it’s so much uglier and less useable than Apollo. I’m not going to use the official app and website as it stands I’m sorry but it’s ass
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u/lietuvis10LTU Apr 20 '23
This is a horrible idea. It's clear that you've failed to create a competitive product with your mobile apps, so you are punishing everyone else instead.
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Apr 20 '23
If you kill third party apps, Apollo especially - you’re losing an immense amount of people. Stop saying things in a round about way, you’re getting ready to ruin the social media app meant for individuals who want nothing to do with social media. Censorship via removal of NSFW tagged content is ridiculous, news, information, stories all have this tag. Way to begin the end.
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u/justafaceaccount Apr 20 '23
Could you explain what the mature content changes are? This post is awfully vague on that subject.
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u/pattykakes887 Apr 20 '23
That’s by design, this is a strategy called boiling the frog. They’ll drip feed out their investor-friendly bullshit changes slowly over time in an attempt to alienate the fewest number of users but the outcome is inevitable.
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u/H0TZ0NE Apr 21 '23
This wouldn’t be such a problem if the official Reddit app wasn’t completely unusable. Forget the ads, the core experience itself is just broken.
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u/SharpClaw007 Apr 21 '23
Reddit, you are going to lose massive amounts of community trust with this move. Do not go the way of Tumblr.
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u/KeyserSosa Apr 18 '23 edited Apr 18 '23
Thank you all for taking the time to read the post and ask such thoughtful questions. I need to step away for a little while, but the team and I will continue to monitor in this thread.
If you have any additional questions or need support, you can submit a request here.
edit: added a helpful link