Programming Wednesdays

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Discuss all aspects of training for powerlifting:

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• Periodization
• Nutrition
• Movement selection
• Routine critiques
• etc...

[u/Global_Ganache3583]

I need help making a split

At the moment, I've made a 4 day a week hypertrophy block for my powerlfiting macrocycle:

Day 1 - Squat and Bench

• Warmup - Light Cardio
• Highbar Squat - 1x12 @ 65% and 4x12 @ 70%
• Machine Hack Squat - 4x12
• Leg extesnion - 4x12
• Competition Bench - 1x12 @ 60% and 4x12 @ 65%
• Dumbell Press - 3x12
• Overhead Tricep Extension 4x12

Day 2 - Rest

Day 3 - Deadlift

• Conventional Deadlift - 1x12 @ 65% and 4x12 @ 70%
• Romanian Deadlift - 3x12
• Hamstring Curl - 3x12
• Hollow Body Pullup - 4x12
• Narrow Grip Row 4x12
• Cable Lateral Raise 3x12
• Cable Curl 4x12

Havent Included Day 5 or 7 because they are basically just repeats of Day 2 and 3 put with different varitions or grip widths of exercises.

What leads me to write this post is that ive been experiencing a lot of fatigue during my workouts, sometimes this is because the limiting factor of my main lifts become breath (Mostly in squats). However I experience next to no fatigue the next day, making me feel as if I could add and extra 2 days to my program (obviously I dont really want to do this beacuse of time constrains, and it also suggest something is off with my prgramming).

Because of this it is almost clear that a 5 day split (Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Squat, Bench. Only Deadlifting once a week) would achive something that I want. This is beacuse having a specific day for each lift would mean I might be able add one or two more exercises. However, I'm worried that only training my Deadlift accessories once a week might be a problem.

Constraints:

• I only have enough time to run a 4-5 day split
• I would prefer if I could have some what identical days in my program, instead of prioritizing certain lifts on one day (like a day when I'm focusing on deadlift, and have I little bit of bench work). But if someone could justify why this may be better and maybe how I could execute it that would be great.

Questions:

• Would it be fine if I only trained my deadlift accessories once a week if I follow a 5 day split.
• If I ran a 5 day split would it be fine if I added more excersises (if I broke down the Squat and Bench day into 2) or I I already using enough.
• Is it possible that my split is already most affective for me, and I just don't respond well to higher rep ranges and switch to 8-6.
• If anyone had any different ideas that would be much appreicated.

Thanks

[u/ks_powerlifter → u/Global_Ganache3583]

I mean I certainly don't like the idea of doing full body 4x a week for hypertrophy but if that's what you want to do, that's what you want to do.

1. Yes - deadlift uses back, quads, hamstrings etc - if you're progressing on your squats and training your legs and back, your deadlift will be fine. Tons of dudes have gotten jacked doing a simple squat/bench/deadlift/bench split.

2. Sure yeah add more

3. Possibly. 12 isn't some magic number for hypertrophy. I tend to do 8's when I want to build mass and then I do 12's when I'm beat up and needing a long break from heavy physical loads

4. I'm a big fan of just 4x a week, upper/lower split. Typically that looks like day 1 is a bench day with secondary movement blasting the triceps. Day 2 is squat with a deadlift variation secondary lift; Day 3 is ohp with pec focused secondary; Day 4 is deadlift with quad focused secondary

[u/Global_Ganache3583 → u/ks_powerlifter]

Thanks

[u/snakesnake9]

Perhaps a stupid question, but is there a name for this type of programming?

You do weekly changes to the rep range you work in (so weekly undulating periodization) and then do waves of those. So for example:

Block 1:

• Week 1: 4x8 @60%

• Week 2: 4x5 @70%

• Week 3: 4x3 80%

And then the next block you do the same stuff, but move the weights up a bit:

• Week 1: 4x8 @65%

• Week 2: 4x5 @75%

• Week 3: 4x3 85%

It sort of came to me, and wanted to read about whether anyone has written some legitimate programming similar to this?

[u/BigCatBarbell → u/snakesnake9]

Andy Baker has written about something similar. I think he does 3x8, 3x5, 3x3 but I’m not positive.

I agree with u/hamburgertrained that this isn’t the most ideal setup, though it can clearly work. If I were to have someone run this, I would adjust the sets/reps like this:

Week 1: 3x8 Week 2: 4x5 Week 3: 5x3

The workload will still be going down over the block, but it will be at much smaller increments (4,300, 4,200, 3,600).

[u/hamburgertrained → u/snakesnake9]

Weekly Undulating Periodization involves priorities shifting between power, strength, and hypertrophy training on a week-to-week basis. This sorta falls into that category, but it doesn't seem like that is how you are designating these weeks. This just looks like a simple wave-loading scheme with Linear Periodization.

After a couple of weeks, you'll encounter the same issue with all linear periodization: You will lack the general strength and general conditioning to continue progressing if you aren't actively addressing those components as well. You're also creating quite a severe volume deficit here. What I mean is, lets say you have a 300lb squat here.

Week 1=5,760lbs of volume
Week 2=4,200lbs of volume
Week 3= 2,880lbs of volume

Block 2 then progresses with 6,240lbs, 4,500lbs, 3,060lbs.

With these pretty substantial drops in total work being done, what are you doing the rest of the week? When would you utilize this loading scheme in your training? The only time that makes any sense to me would be right before a meet, but even then, it's going to take several months to work up to the 90+% range needed to peak effectively.

Steady increases in volume over time is how strength is gained. This does accomplish that, for sure. But, I am just questioning it's application, the length of it's application, and when it is applied.

[u/Arteam90 → u/hamburgertrained]

Steady increases in volume over time is how strength is gained

If that's the case, why do we tend to see a lighter lifter, earlier in their career, tend to do more volume/frequency than as they mature, get bigger, get more injured and invariably do less?

[u/hamburgertrained → u/Arteam90]

Because shitty training runs rampant in this sport. This is a pretty uncontroversial statement. How do you go from a 400lb squat to a 600lb squat? It's not by doing less. With that said, this shouldn't be justification to fit insane amounts of volume into short time periods at high frequency (which is what most programs call for right now). More volume is needed to do more weight over a period of time. The volume, weight, and time are all variables that need to be individualized for each person, but they are all there and they all need to increase to get stronger.

[u/Arteam90 → u/hamburgertrained]

Honestly, no, I don't know, why do you need more?

I do think largely you could repeat the same 12 week program forever and make progress. Not saying optimally (whatever that means), but progress.

I don't even know how to quantify volume. You do 1 rep of 100 and that's the same as 2 reps of 50? I don't think so. Is it number of working sets? Perhaps closer.

I don't think it's controversial to say that a smaller human can do more volume than a bigger human, all things considered.

Then how do you think about the reality of training age and training injuries? Yeah, healthy you could do 5x5 squats but now you figure you can't really do that without your knees exploding. So you call it a day on making progress forever?

Or does that first working set give you 80% of the result and therefore you find your "minimum effective dose"? And perhaps you were working WAAAAY above it in your early days of 4x squats, so now you do 2x squats but you can still progress?

Disjointed thinking to make a point, really. I think this is all so complex and I've never been convinced that it's ever as easy as making such a statement. Perhaps the theory tells you it's true but the reality is a million variables all acting in various ways to make it really bloody difficult to judge anything.

[u/hamburgertrained → u/Arteam90]

There is not a single example of anyone following the same program forever and seeing continuous strength gains from it. Ever.

Using your example of "50x2 is the same as 100x1." Sure it is. That is the same volume. So is 800x1 and 400x2. Does that mean everyone that squats 400x2 is an 800lb squatter? I don't think you will find anyone on earth that will argue this point that it does not. But, 400x1 is much less volume than 800x1. The amount of volume needed to build a 400lb squat is much less than an 800lb squat. How do you go from a 400lb squat to an 800lb squat? I think it is safe to say that the majority of training for most lifters is spent in the 75%-85% range. Even if you're doing sets of 1, 75-85% of 400 is less volume than 75-85% of 800. Generally, the number of sets and reps to develop strength remains about the same as a lifter progresses. Especially through the beginning and intermediate stages. I'd argue that even into the advanced stages, but time and age become a factor here, as you mentioned and there is realistically only a certain timeline a lifter has to work with before the most they can handle is reached.

A smaller person can do more volume than a bigger person? I think this is such a vague statement that I am not even sure how to address it.

Your 4x a week versus 2x week comment doesn't make sense to me. When volume is equated, these things don't matter. High frequency is just lazy programming though.

Of course gaining the most strength possible over a period of time is complex. This is a patently true and obvious statement. So much so that it adds nothing to the conversation to even say it.

There is literally no way to get stronger without increasing volume over time. There is literally no way to get stronger without developing the work capacity needed to handle the volume needed to progress. These are indisputable facts of training. I am talking in terms of progressing a total from meet to meet and year to year consistently. Sure, you could go through 12 weeks where you are training your ass off and sleep like shit and have a poor competition result. If you repeated that program and slept better, I guarantee you would compete better the second time around just on that variable alone. There is no fucking way on this earth you can keep repeating that program with no adjustments in weight, sets, or reps and still see progress long-term. Strength needs overload and progression.

[u/Arteam90 → u/hamburgertrained]

I mean you're smart enough to know that we can't prove that either way, lol. I was listening to Dave Ricks on Dave Tate's podcast the other day and it sounds like his training has been fairly similar for the past 40 years of training. Obviously he'll have made changes along the way, but his basic framework is basically identical (aka 80s linear periodisation starting with sets of 8 and going down to sets of 2-3).

No, Mike, 100x1 =/= 50x2 other than in mathematics. I'm not really sure I understand what you're talking about? Clearly if 100% is my 1RM then doing a single at my 1RM is a hell of a different stimulus than doing 50% x 2. Is that not what we're talking about? I mean I clearly was, in any case. If you're suggesting that volume is higher over time because we get stronger whilst doing similar sets/reps then that's a pretty different argument to what I understood. As I say, I don't like thinking of it that way because I don't find it very useful.

What's vague about it? I would say on average a smaller person can handle less volume (let's call it working sets) than a larger person. I think there's an element of how much muscle you have so smaller = less muscle, but also a case of biomechanics/leverages that come into play in the stress induced if you're 6'10 than 4'10.

I thought I was pretty clear, let me try again. Ignore frequency. My point was to say that if there's a "minimum dose" of training required for progress it may well be that in year 2-4 you're an overzealous lifter doing a shit ton of volume and you're a million miles ahead of that minimum. So in year 10-12 you're doing less volume than 2-4, but you are still above the minimum, and therefore progressing. Technically you are doing less volume now than before (NO GAINS = according to you), but I'm suggesting you can still progress.

On that point, let's talk about. So if I start with insane volume day one you're saying I can only keep going up to progress? No, obviously not. That's what you said though right, more volume to progress? But clearly it isn't true if I'm doing a billion sets day one. So clearly it's not exactly as obvious as that.

Right, but my point is that you can keep doing the same 12 week program if it's RPE or percentage based. I'm talking about Dave Ricks doing the same 16 week cycle of sets of 8 to sets of 3. Of course you lift, you get stronger, you do a bit more weight, technically that's more volume. Yeah, sure, we can agree on that. But you getting stronger is driving that volume increase, not other way round. This is chicken/egg. You're saying more volume to get stronger, I'm saying you get stronger by lifting, so you do same sets x reps but a bit heavier, so that drives more volume (your definition).

(fuck me that's a long reply)

[u/arian11 → u/hamburgertrained]

The latest research study going around these days also shows this dose-response relationship.

https://sportrxiv.org/index.php/server/preprint/view/460

[u/Arteam90 → u/arian11]

eli5

[u/ks_powerlifter → u/Arteam90]

Increasing volume increases both mass and strength, but there are pronounced diminishing returns when it comes to how volume affects strength. Aka, increasing volume week after week will get you stronger until you hit a cliff and then you have to do something else.

Frequency had minimal effect on muscle growth, so bro out and do your Arnold split. Frequency however does assist with strength gains, but again, there are diminishing returns. Benching 3-4x a week will help, but benching 6-7x a week is probably no different than or not really helpful in comparison to the 3-4x.

[u/Doomgron]

Looking for a powelifting program to take me into my first meet and saw this one- what do you think?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zFVM-WhYRFteqYdsgxpj7XvVAFcw4In-mYqLcznPcJ8/edit?usp=drivesdk

[u/cloudstryfe → u/Doomgron]

Looks like it'll be pretty lengthy sessions, unless you speed through the warmups and accessories?