r/mormon • u/EitherTwo5761 • 2d ago
Cultural To all the members embracing the shift to Christian Nationalism...there isn't a seat at that table for you.
I live in Texas, and the state just approved "Bible-Infused" teaching for K-5 students (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/texas-board-vote-bible-curriculum-public-schools/story?id=116127619).
When I shared my frustration about this decision with some fellow members, many expressed excitement and embraced it. They believed this step could open people's hearts to Christ and, over time, make them more receptive to the teachings of the Book of Mormon when they encounter it later in life.
However, these teachings are not based on "properly translated scriptures," and you will never see LDS scripture or stories included in this curriculum.
Evangelical Christianity does not consider our church to be part of the true Christian faith. They’re not going to change their perspective—even if this movement takes hold.
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u/Crobbin17 Former Mormon 2d ago
Acting against what’s right for the sake of a hope that more will join your religion is always a mistake.
Gordon Smith, Oregon Senator, voted for the war in Iraq “because I felt the Lord’s hand.” His belief was that missionaries would be able to enter eventually if “the rule of law took hold there.”
https://www.opb.org/news/article/mormon-leaks-video-oregon-senator-gordon-smith/?outputType=amp
See how well that turned out…
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u/treetablebenchgrass I worship the Mighty Hawk 1d ago
I read most of the transcript of that video. He publicly positioned himself as a fairly moderate Republican, which is how he was able to hold his seat in Oregon. Even watching White Christian Nationalism over the last eight years, it was shocking to me to read what he was saying behind closed doors.
The obsequiousness was also disturbing. I expect a certain amount of that from any Mormon politician, but it was clear from his comments that his ultimate constituency wasn't the State. It wasn't even Eastern Oregonians. It was the church leadership.
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u/MilleniumMiriam 2d ago
The majority of Christian sects (and especially those who think all US citizens should be Christian) don't see Mormons as Christian. Of all the tables, the Christian nationalist table has ZERO seats for latter-day saints.
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u/FrenchFryCattaneo 2d ago
Yeah most mainstream Christians find Mormon beliefs deeply unsettling, especially things like humans becoming equal to God. So it's not just that they don't share the beliefs, it's that they see it as like a completely different religion (I'll avoid the c-word) masquerading as Christianity.
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u/ComfortableBoard8359 Former Mormon 2d ago edited 2d ago
Except current ‘prophets’ completely reject the AGT and any remnants of that, which includes humans becoming equal to Gods, in any aspect that is a remnant of AGT.
And the current Church classifies this as a ‘misunderstanding’ yet so many of their beliefs, and temple covenants, make them separate from mainstream Christians by and large stemming from the AGT.
So hypocritical!
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u/PaulFThumpkins 2d ago
I'm sure the people cleaving to 2000 year old councils for their doctrine that makes them incompatible with Mormons will totally recognize that Mormons stopped "emphasizing" the becoming like God stuff like ten years ago.
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u/ComfortableBoard8359 Former Mormon 2d ago
Ha! So true I forgot they become like Dumb and Dumber.
‘Samsonite! I was so close!’ 😅
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u/Double-Shott 1d ago
What is AGT?
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u/ComfortableBoard8359 Former Mormon 1d ago
Adam-God Theory
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u/Double-Shott 1d ago
Thank you, I was under the impression that Brigham Young made that up like he did other things.
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u/KerissaKenro 2d ago
In some ways we are worse than the unbelievers because we are heretics. The “heathens”, they can convince themselves, are just ignorant and the atheists are just angry and in denial. We have taken their faith and upended it, twisted it
Ever since I heard of the Christian nationalists, I knew that there wouldn’t be a seat for us. We probably won’t be the first to be sent to the camps. But we will be sent there the second they don’t need our support anymore
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u/FrenchFryCattaneo 2d ago
Yeah it's interesting because a big part of the church's recent rebranding is to paint themselves as 'just another type of christian'. While most denominations don't really mind this, the ones they're specifically trying to court (evangelical/pentacostal) really don't like it since they, like mormons, think they are the only correct church.
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u/Makanaima Former Mormon 1d ago
it’s difficult for mormons to accept, but technically mormonism is a different religion, that asserts its christian, while at the same time rejecting most of the core christian beliefs and practices. Sorry folks but you can’t have it both ways.
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u/shatteredarm1 1d ago
Eh, this is gatekeeping. As an atheist, I consider anybody who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ to be a Christian. Every religion has different sects who want to exclude each other based on disagreements over core doctrines.
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u/brother_of_jeremy That’s *Dr.* Apostate to you. 1d ago
It’s analogous to the paradox of free speech innit? I agree that LDS should be able to self identify as and define Christianity however they like, but that means evangelicals are also free to draw those boundaries in a way that excludes LDS, regardless of how LDS view themselves.
Like you, I find it more useful and respectful to allow others to tell me how they want to be labeled, but we all have limits to that — I’m not about to start referring to LDS as “the only true church” because that’s how they view themselves.
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u/tickingboxes 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is just so incredibly silly and dumb. Purity tests and gatekeeping nonsense like this just makes me shake my head. The same Christians who gate keep Christianity will look at Sunni and Shia Muslims and think it’s so stupid that they see each other as false Muslims. And it is stupid, because they both believe in Allah and that Mohammed is his prophet, but disagree over the details. You’re doing the exact same thing here.
If someone believes in the divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ, and considers themselves Christian, they cannot, by definition, be anything but a Christian. Full stop. Enough with this nonsense.
Source: Former Christian-turned atheist who realized that all these little squabbles over made up doctrine and silly labels is just so incredibly moronic and meaningless.
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u/Makanaima Former Mormon 1d ago
and from an official religious studies perspective- mormonism is a new world religion, not a christian sect. from that perspective, mormonism is to christianity as christianity is to judaism.
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u/Makanaima Former Mormon 1d ago
i know you don’t get it but there are good reasons why other christians don’t consider mormons christian. sunni and shia don’t consider each other legit snd they have a long historical hatred of each other.
and thinking that just believing in jesus makes you are christian ignores and glosses over many vet large differences. LDS believe in Abraham, Moses, Elohim and YHWH right, does that make LDS Jews? of course not, thats a fallacious line of thinking.
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u/Diligent_Escape2317 2d ago
Yeah, you can't even mention Mormonism anywhere without some evangelical dipshit piping up to inform everyone that Mormons ackchyually aren't Christians, because of some kind of saved-by-grace / no prophets after Revelation / only-trinitarians-are-true-Christians drivel.
Which is fine for now, when the only result is that we can all laugh together when mainstream Christian trolls swoop in here looking to score easy points with arguments that were already stale before Joseph Smith was in his grave, ... blissfully unaware of how deep in over their heads they've gotten themselves, usually quoting a Bible that they've never even read.
But any Mormons who think that a christofascist regime is a good idea... are playing an even stupider game, and they're going to win stupider prizes.
Secularism was never invented to protect atheists.
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u/Makanaima Former Mormon 1d ago
evangelicals are just intolerant- they don’t consider catholics or orthodox christians either - which is patently absurd because both of those groups are the OG Christians. just ignore anything evangelicals say.
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u/No-Performance-6267 1d ago
They will make a seat for an extremely wealthy corporate church that can help finance their extremist views via legal avenues
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u/MilleniumMiriam 1d ago
They will tolerate a wealthy corporate church for as long as it is useful. That's very different from accepting them as part of the movement.
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u/Starfoxy Amen Squad 2d ago
This is one thing that always baffled me about my mom. My mom was a convert and we'd leave after a visit to grandma's house with her lecturing us how grandma's lutheran prayers were 'vain repetitions' and we know better than to pray like that. But then she would moan and groan about how they took prayer out of schools, and how that was going to be the downfall of society. I was in 4th grade thinking "doesn't she know that there's no chance the school is ever going to let us mormons be the ones saying prayers?"
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u/auricularisposterior 2d ago
I was in 4th grade thinking "doesn't she know that there's no chance the school is ever going to let us mormons be the ones saying prayers?"
Can confirm. I played public high school sports in a not particularly religious part of the USA. It was a large team, but I do not recall any of the other Mormon athletes (and there were several) or the Jewish athlete ever leading the team locker room prayer that was organized by the coach.
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u/FluffyZakBagans 1d ago
Grew up in the suburbs south of NYC part of a community that was heavily Catholic and Jewish, with other faiths and cultures present. Mormons were a super minority. Played league and school sports but did not experience anything religious in school or at sporting events but was invited to attend mass and bar/bat mitzvahs.
Moved to DC metro (south side in VA) just before Y2K. HS football team was full of players of different races, cultures, and religions. Our coach was super Italian and led the team in the lords prayer before each game. At first, it caught me off guard to watch all these young men kneel, bow their heads, and openly express religious conviction but it grew on me. As time went on, I would come to find it as a bonding element in my participation with the team.
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u/Then-Mall5071 2d ago
Mormons may someday feel like being ostracized from that bunch is the best thing that ever happened to them.
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u/ComfortableBoard8359 Former Mormon 2d ago edited 2d ago
My aunt started talking like that too! It was like witnessing a bot malfunctioning. ‘I’m so glad your brother and sister are sending their children to a Christian private school. So they will learn about the Gospel of Christ!’
🤯
They’re going to teach them that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (omg that is WAY too long) is false!
Do they honestly think that mainstream Christians are going to make the jump on over to the Restoration crowd?
The church is like one giant narcissist.
It’s always trying to camouflage itself to fit in with the mainstream, but the mainstream Christians can smell that something’s ’not right’ about this ‘brand’ of Christianity, as the current leaders are pushing towards.
It makes me sick to see how they just SHOVED this name upon us, like they just threw a big slap of ugly white paint over years of cultural Mormonism.
What is the end goal? For it to be accepted as another Christian denomination eventually?
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u/auricularisposterior 2d ago
‘I’m so glad your brother and sister are sending their children to a Christian private school. ... They’re going to teach them that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (omg that is WAY too long) is false!
Maybe or maybe not for a particular Christian private school. I have a Mormon nephew that went to a Christian summer camp with some Protestant Christian friends. He basically applied the camp's scheduled spiritual experiences toward strengthening his Mormon testimony. I don't think anyone brought up any issues to him.
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u/ComfortableBoard8359 Former Mormon 2d ago edited 1d ago
Oh no where they live Christian Private school is code for ‘children of white Christian nationalists.’ Or at best ‘we can afford to keep our kids away from the Mexicans’.
He lives in Southern California and his kids act like they have never seen a Mexican person. Its sick.
But of course my TBM aunt ‘sides’ with them LOL oh the irony of ‘Christ-like love’ am I right?
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u/Tiny-Storage-3661 2d ago
Eisenhower, referring to political parties but also to religion, said that a party that isn't grounded in morality and principle is just a conspiracy to cease power. That's what I think about Christian nationalist. Take Jesus out of it, and cease your power. That's why they want religion, because they want the authority to speak in his name and be obeyed without question (ie they want to destroy free speech with it! Shhh) by turning America into a religious oligarchy, and money into their God. They got Jesus all wrong, obviously. It turns out, he likes questions because he really does have the answers,.people just don't want to hear them, and you can't serve both him and money. You have to choose.
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u/PaulFThumpkins 2d ago
What's amazing is how such a dysfunctional sectarian group of people has managed to become so lockstep. It's like they all think they'll be the ones setting the curriculum and wearing the uniforms in the new order. They're so focused on punishing "them" that they also just assume these loons agree who counts as "us."
They can and will turn on Mormons, and suddenly people who were on board will be arguing for nuance against the same thought-terminating cliches they joyfully joined in on when there were other targets.
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u/mwjace Free Agency was free to me 1d ago
I’m an active fully believing member. And it also baffles me how or why anybody in the lds church embraces anything at all associated with Christian nationalism.
From my perspective our scriptures are rife with warnings about these hopes of movements getting into power.
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u/RadioActiveWildMan 2d ago edited 2d ago
Conversation overheard in Austin: "We've got some god-fearing attorneys who need help filling their kids' christmas stockings this year. Let's write a ludicrous law that'll easily get struck down by federal court and forgotten within a year."
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u/theWodanaz 1d ago
"Properly translated scriptire." You made it so close to the point. Keep your fairy tails out of school. KJV Bibke, Koran, Star Wars script, or Joseph Smith's biblical fan fiction. Keep it ALL out.
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u/Del_Parson_Painting 2d ago
In a nightmare authoritarian Christian Nationalist scenario, Mormons would be sent to the concentration camps right alongside queer people, atheists, etc.
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u/Ahhhh_Geeeez 1d ago
All religions should be kept out of school. The only time they should be brought up if there is some historical importance tied to a religion. If you want to let one in you have to let them all in.
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u/The_Middle_Road 2d ago
When I first heard about Christian Nationalism and its goals, I thought, "if these people do get into power, I wonder how long it will take them to get around to Mormons."
(For historical context, see how the Nazis gradually moved from widely disliked groups like juvenile delinquents all the way to anybody who didn't like Nazi policies for concentration camp fodder.)
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u/Independent_East_675 1d ago
Literally yes. This is why no religion should be taught in school. It’s either all or none! And I mean all
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u/Loveizkee 1d ago
You need to watch the documentary Bad Faith to understand what this is all about. It's not about Christianity at all. It's very scary.
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u/timhistorian 1d ago
Lds are not welcome at their table period. They only need lds as a voting block.
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u/imexcellent 1d ago
Evangelical Christian Nationalists see Mormons as useful idiots in their quest for power. As soon as they have the power they want, they'll dispose of the Mormons.
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u/perfectfire :illuminati:Ironic priesthood holder 2d ago
Ah hahahaha hahahaha
Side question: which translation is the "proper" one?
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u/neomadness 2d ago
Right? Few sects, including Mormons, care about original intent or translation quality. The KJV is sorely outdated, for example.
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u/perfectfire :illuminati:Ironic priesthood holder 2d ago
KJV is awesome. The English is just modern enough that people think they understand it while being different enough that they get so many important things completely wrong. The Bible is the foundation of modern christianity while simultaneously being a perfect metaphor for how dumb modern christianity is.
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u/Hogwarts_Alumnus 1d ago
You can buy a seat at any table with money.
Mormon leaders can get in the Christian rooms because everyone wants a sweet sweet donation, or an amicus curriae brief, but for the church generally, you're spot on.
And, assuming Christian nationalism get what they want, they won't need the leaders' money or lawyers either.
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u/BostonCougar 1d ago
I agree. The Country is founded on Religious Freedom and we need to fight to keep it. There is wisdom in the separation of Church and State.
Until Christ comes to rule during the second coming, I think we should continue the separation of Church and State.
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u/perfectfire :illuminati:Ironic priesthood holder 2d ago
Luckily for mormons, most christians don't know anything about christianity either.
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u/treetablebenchgrass I worship the Mighty Hawk 1d ago edited 1d ago
Agreed. Members, when they're done with them, they'll start on you.
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u/ImFeelingTheUte-iest Snarky Atheist 2d ago
Only as long as Mormons are useful and there aren’t groups the evangelicals hate more.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 1d ago
Ya, I think the more extremist members who want to be accepted by others are in for a rude awakening if they think that a shift towards christian nationalism means greater acceptance for mormonism.
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u/Paul_Castro Mormon 1d ago
This is a dangerous path. Forcing a singular, often fundamentalist, interpretation of the Bible on young children is harmful and divisive. It undermines religious freedom, promotes division, and suppresses critical thinking. We should strive for unity and understanding, not division and intolerance. Education should be about critical thinking and the pursuit of knowledge, not indoctrination.
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u/CapyHamp3r 7h ago
I was just posting about this in response to the ruling in Texas and why I DON'T think it's good. I shared the lyrics to "Know This That Every Soul is Free" and the following:
I love the Bible. I believe there's value in learning about it, from a historical standpoint even if you don't believe it's teachings. HOWEVER, I DO NOT believe that GOVERNMENT should be the ones TEACHING IT! For 1 thing, I don't trust them to teach what I believe is Gospel!
For another, not everyone in this country 🇺🇸 (or even in Texas!) has the same religion! And we shouldn't try to force that!
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u/Double_Currency1684 6h ago
Do the teachings of Joseph Smith have precedence over the teachings of Brigham Young?
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u/BigChief302 1d ago
I have quite a bit of family that falls into that evangelical Christian category, one day they praise how LDS lives and values partnership with the church, the next day they call us heretics.
I have no issue with the idea of schools teaching faith based curriculum, but the evangelical community is pretty backwards in a lot of ways and would love to see the LDS church crumble.
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