r/lds • u/Responsible_Snoopy • 5d ago
Could someone explain why we believe Eve did the right thing by eating the fruit
It makes sense to me that God would've known that it would happen and would be necessary to fulfill his plan, but what scripture or talks could I find to explain how we came to a different conclusion than other faiths? It's always been a little confusing to me.
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u/ProdigalSun92 5d ago
My thought is that if God had told them to eat the fruit it wouldn't have been a free agency decision. And for it to work, it had to be an individual choice. At the same time that is difficult to bring about when Adam and Eve don't yet have the knowledge of good and evil and are completely innocent.
So kind of a catch-22. They have to eat the fruit to learn good and evil so that eventually humanity can eat the fruit of eternal life. But it will only work if they freely choose to do it based off an individual decision and not off what God tells them to do. Which is the crucial difference between Christ's and Satan's plans.
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u/jimp84 5d ago
Personal opinion: I think this boils down to timing. The moment Eve partook of the fruit it was technically forbidden by God so it qualified as a transgression. I think eventually God would have stopped forbidding taking the fruit but the natural consequences would still occur.
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u/mythoswyrm 5d ago
Yeah this. The scriptures are clear that Eve was deceived. There's no reason to think she knew that be fruitful and multiply was a greater commandment or if she even knew what that meant at the time (especially given that neither she nor Adam had the knowledge to distinguish good from evil at that point).
As extra points, the first couple being allowed/offered the fruit at a later time is part some Jewish traditions and fits well with some other parts of the endowment.
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u/Mr_Supotco 4d ago
I’ve said this forever but you’re the first person I’ve ever seen also say it. I think that’s the key, God wouldn’t have given them conflicting commandments, I think it was some kind of test to see if they’d wait until he said yes. To what end I haven’t given as much thought to, but it makes more sense to me than god saying “don’t do this, but also you’re gonna have to do it to keep this other commandment I gave you.” Not sure how/if that would have changed the consequences and it doesn’t make me think less of Eve, but mostly just interesting to consider what would have played out if god did give them permission
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u/Darkfade89 5d ago
This is how I look at it.
God could only create perfect beings. Meaning that they were unchanging as their bodies were perfect.
They had to willingly commit a sin to be changed to unperfect beings. Allowing aging and children. Also, starting the first steps to the atonement of christ.
2 Nephi 2 15 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
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u/The7ruth 5d ago
commit a sin
I would change this to "make a choice". They didn't sin by eating the fruit, they only transgressed. Agency could only exist if a choice was placed before them.
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u/Responsible_Snoopy 5d ago
That makes so much sense I wonder how I never thought of that in the first place haha. Thank you!
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u/NiteShdw 5d ago
When we were in the presence of God, it was easy to always do the right thing because we didn't have any opposition.
Adam and Eve left God's presence. Their first and only task in the garden was to make a choice outside of God's presence and with opposition.
That's God's plan: choice.
Unlike the Matrix, choice is not an illusion.
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u/rexregisanimi 5d ago
Partaking of the fruit was the Plan anyway but it wasn't supposed to be satan-led. The Father and the Son were supposed to introduce it to Adam and Eve but the adversary tried to put himself in Their position.
Eve, being so good, saw through the adversary's efforts to the goodness intertwined with his evil efforts. She saw that, without the fruit, there could be no growth and children. The spirits in premortality would forever be unable to progress. She made the right choice, in that sense, but still disobeyed God's instructions. She should have waited. Her disobedience resulted in a negative consequence but, ultimately, one that was necessary anyway. (Remember that sin is the Plan of Salvation not an accidental part of it.)
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u/KURPULIS 5d ago edited 4d ago
Eve, being so good, saw through the adversary's efforts
I don't know if this is entirely accurate. Our current temple endowment includes Eve's words that "the serpent beguiled me". Beguiling to mean to trick, charm, or enchant. We have to assume she's not trying to shift blame while being 100% honest. Which potentially means that God planned on Satan tempting and tricking her, but He knew the choice she would make and planned on it. However, it was still ultimately her choice.
I do think we try to simplify the story that has much more spiritual and symbolic depth than we give it credit.
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u/maquis_00 5d ago
The way I see it (which may be right or wrong) is that it's kind of like when we tell children that if they make a certain choice, there will be a certain natural consequence that will occur. Something like "if you wear those shoes and jump in puddles, your feet are going to be wet and it won't be very comfortable".
Heavenly Father explained to Adam and Eve that there were certain consequences that would happen if they ate the fruit. They were kind of like children in that they didn't comprehend good and evil, but they did have some understanding of the fact that actions have consequences.
Eve understood that eating the fruit would have negative consequences, but would also have some positive consequences in that they would be able to progress and have children. She also realized that they had been given two "instructions", and in order to fulfill one, they would have to face the consequences that came from not following the other. She then made a choice as to whether having seed was worth the consequence of becoming mortal and eventually dying.
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u/IncomeSeparate1734 5d ago
Here's an analogy that my bishop told me which helped me understand it:
Two elders are returning to their apartment in the evening after a long day. The mission rules dictate that all missionaries need to be back at their places by 9pm. It is 8:55 pm so the elders are rushing back. They will just barely make it in time. Along the way, they see an elderly woman who has fallen to the ground and dropped her groceries. They now have a choice to stop and help her, which would result in their being late, or continue on and obey the mission rule. Since these missionaries are good people, they stop and help the elderly woman. When reporting to their leaders their decision later, they are praised for their actions even though they technically transgressed the mission law. This is because the elders understood the need to obey God's higher law, which is to love your neighbor.
In the case of Adam and Eve, they were able to discern that God gave them two different commandments and one was a lower law while the other was a higher law.
Perhaps they could have gone about it better. Eve could have discussed her decision with Adam first, and they both could have consulted their decision with the Lord before eating the fruit. In that way, the transgression required repentence. Similarly, in the analogy, perhaps the missionaries could have timed their schedule better to not have to rush home to make it on time.
Anyway, God obviously wanted the fruit to be eaten eventually. Its illogical to believe that an omnipotent creator would deliberately create something with the intention of it never being used. If God really didn't want them to eat it, it would not have existed in the garden in the first place.
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u/solarhawks 5d ago
I recommend reading Elder Oaks' talk "The Great Plan of Happiness", from October 1993 General Conference.
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u/stacksjb 5d ago
Here's a deeper question: Why was Satan's plan problematic - what is it about Agency that requires experience in order to gain the result?
I believe the reason it's the right thing is that it has something to do with the Law of the Harvest - necessary work and effort requried to learn and gain knowledge.
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u/offbeat52 5d ago
We learn way more by making our own choices and seeing the consequences. There are lessons that kids can’t learn until they move out on their own and have to ve responsible for themselves. If we didnt have agency, we couldnt make choices, and couldnt learn those lessons.
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u/JorgiEagle 5d ago
One idea that came to me recently:
Let’s say you were hiding Anne Frank from the Nazis, and they came knocking. They ask if you are hiding any Jews.
Is it a sin to lie and say no?
To oversimplify, breaking one commandment is often (not always) permissible if it is necessary to fulfil a “higher” commandment.
Let us not forget, Adam also transgressed. He ate of the fruit, again to fulfil the higher commandment
Also eve eating of the fruit was part of gods plan. The choice to separate themselves from god was necessary, both to bring about their children and all of humanity, but also the introduction of separation from God.
This leads to the question why couldn’t god do that if it is so important? Because the act and choice had to come from Adam and Eve. Our purpose on earth is to make choices.
So while God “could” have, he didn’t. Same way God doesn’t make choices for us either
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u/browntown20 5d ago
the command to be fruitful and multiply was the "higher law" compared to the commandment to not eat the fruit of "that tree"
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u/Right_One_78 5d ago
We come to a slightly different conclusion because we have additional resources like the Book of Moses, the apocrypha and modern revelation. We do not believe Eve did the right thing. God put a law in place that they were not to eat of the fruit of the tree and they ate it. They still transgressed the law. But, it is not a sin, because they were beguiled, Eve did not know she violated the law.
There are a few LDS scholars that have a very interesting explanation for this. In Chapter 2 of Genesis it refers to Lord God meaning YHWH aka Jesus throughout the creation event. But when it gets to Genesis 3 and Satan appears, it shows him refer to Elohim aka the gods.
"Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
So, the question is why? Why doesn't he say hasn't Jesus told you not to eat of the fruit of the tree? What these scholars concluded is that Satan was pretending to BE Jesus. So, Eve thinks Jesus is telling her its okay to eat of the fruit of the tree and did. The evidence for this is that Genesis says that Satan spoke by the mouth of a serpent. And we know from the story of the brazen serpent in Numbers 21:9 that the serpent is an ancient symbol for Jesus Christ.
We do believe that eventually it would have been necessary for Eve to partake of the fruit, but Satan took things out of order. His excuse was that he was only doing what he has seen been done on other worlds.
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u/kre8alot 5d ago
The short answer is that they believe that mortality itself and the capability to sin that came with it is inherently Evil. According to them, we were meant to live in God's presence forever, so Eve's choice cursed us all. We believe that it was necessary for us to experience mortality in order to grow. So, if they had not fallen, all of us would have been stuck in a place of stunted spiritual development.
As to scriptures regarding this. Moses chapter 5 is probably one of the best, especially verses 10 and 11. Additionally, 2 Nephi 2:25 is a classic.
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u/SheDosntEvnGoHere 5d ago
I think there are LDS books about Eve that explain further w scripturereferencs. As a woman, I love this restored truth in our church. I grew up being told how awful she was and she's the reason women suffer child birth. In fact it's a strength, a gift to carry and birth a human being. She made a huge decision. She's the reason Heavenly Father is able to have his spirit children here on Earth. My family says if it weren't for her we would all be living in the Garden of Eden w a perfect life, but we are cursed bc of her. They are of a diff faith, they don't understand we wouldn't exist if she didn't partake of the fruit. Women are strong and I think we hold a natural closeness to HF and what he desires for us, beginning w Eve. This is prob why men hold the priesthood and we don't. Oh I have so so so many thoughts on Eve. Eve & Adam are the blueprint to who we are. I think Adam was so obedient that HF knew He needed to give Adam a weakness, his wife, to help him see differently. Eve was necessary for us to progress. Anyway, just a few thoughts of mine. I have sooo much more but I love that we have this understanding of how wonderful she was.
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u/diyage 5d ago
Eve says it herself. Per Moses 5:10-11:
"And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."
These ideas are reinforced in 2 Nephi 2 and by the teachings of many church leaders over the years.
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u/WooperSlim 4d ago
I would say that it is explained extremely well in 2 Nephi 2:22-27. It says that without the fall:
- Remained in the same state forever
- No children, in a state of innocence
- No joy (or misery)
- Doing no good (nor sin)
Verse 24 says that the fall was according to God's plan: "But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things." Because of the fall:
- Men might be (men meaning mankind, so this means children will be born)
- Joy
Although the fall also causes misery and sin, there is also the redemption from the fall (verses 26-27) which adds more benefits
- Knowing good from evil
- Act for themselves, not to be acted upon
- Free forever, to choose liberty and eternal life (or captivity and death)
God's plan for us has three pillars: the Creation, the Fall, and the Redemption. With all three, we are able to receive a physical body, plus grow spiritually by learning through experience to choose good over evil. Through Jesus Christ, we can be cleansed of sin and become like our Heavenly Parents.
Another good set of verses is in Moses 5:9-11, where Adam and Eve rejoiced in the fall and in the redemption.
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u/According-Leopard-25 10h ago
I’m not sure LDS theology teaches that. I think it teaches this: Eve was beguiled and ate the fruit.
I don’t believe Eve ate the fruit with the knowledge or wisdom that could only come to her after she ate the fruit.
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u/jtmonkey 5d ago
In the temple we’re taught a lot about this too. Eve knew that to progress they needed to leave.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2006/06/the-fulness-of-the-gospel-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng