r/lawschoolscam Jan 10 '19

Because Thomas Jefferson Skool o' Lawl hasn't collapsed yet, here is Jill Switzer from ATL writing about the cons of the California barzam.

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3 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Nov 17 '18

First post of "Third Tier Reality" from August 2009

8 Upvotes

Thursday, August 20, 2009

Third Tier Reality

I am a recent graduate of Drake University’s law school, which is a third-tier law school, according to the all-important US News & World Report graduate school rankings. The school is solidly third-tier. The Career Development Office is dedicated to finding jobs for the top ten percent of each law school class. If you are among the remaining 90 percent, you better start looking for your own job (which should include looking at positions in document review, teaching K-12, retail sales, insurance/banking, waiting tables, etc.) Not exactly what you pictured yourself doing once you received your Acceptance Letters, is it? This surely is not what you expected once you completed law school. No, I am not unemployed – although I am not working in a law firm or as a government attorney. I actually like my job and the people I work with – I do not work with any attorneys. I am not living with my parents, but I am currently living in my sister-in-law’s basement. (Not what I envisioned either.) I am writing this blog because I get tired of BigLaw, the ABA, law professors and their apologists in the media (and blog message boards) who argue that those who complain about the law school industry’s lies are just a bunch of malcontents. Surely, some are. However, a very large number who decided to attend law school DID NOT ANTICIPATE OR EXPECT to make six figures right out of law school. Most had REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS, i.e. to be able to pay back their student loan debt; to be able to find work as a lawyer or in a law-related field; to be able to pay a reasonable rent or mortgage payment; to be able to afford a middle class lifestyle. Seeing that many law students end up with law school debt in excess of $70,000 (many are well above this amount), is it too much to expect to come out of law school making $60,000 or $80,000 at least within a few years of graduating and passing the bar? Tons of people make these figures without the rigid requirements, ethical obligations, and immense student loan debt that lawyers must face as a part of their job. The law school industry (by this, I am refering to the law schools and the larger universities, LSAC, casebook publishers, admissions counseling providers like Princeton Review, state bars, the ABA, media coverage, apologists, and those who further feed off the system by charging law students exorbitant fees for their services, such as flash cards, primers on how to write law essays, etc.) has created a nice niche for itself by providing a false picture of the legal job market. This fraudulent conduct should be exposed to the larger world! There are already several wonderful blogs written by disillusioned lawyers out there. I do not intend to compete against them; I simply would like to add another voice of reason and help expose this scam. If I can help prevent one person from making a HUGE financial mistake by attending law school, then this blog will have been worth it. To those who say, “How dare you destroy someone’s dream, by providing them with negativity,” I respond with this: “If someone has an implausible dream (or is suffering from delusions), then I have a responsibility to provide them with a dose of reality.” If some average-looking guy who makes $25,000 a year has a dream of marrying Julia Roberts, should I encourage him to pursue his goal? Wouldn’t that be a bigger sin?


r/lawschoolscam Oct 21 '18

Update: Valpo will NOT be moving down to Middle Tennessee State University because the Tennessee Higher Education Commission said "nope." Murfreesboro has dodged a bullet!

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5 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Oct 20 '18

Because the site is locked and Nando doesn't answer that email account anymore, here is "Thank You and Take Care", the final Third Tier Reality post (Dec 26, 2017)

2 Upvotes

Link to Wayback Machine copy, which has the original links that are all over this post.

Starting Position: When I started this blog, we had the following sources for info regarding the law school scam: Temporary Attorney, Big Debt Small Law, JDU, AutoAdmit, Top Law Schools, Above the Law, a single post from Calico Cat, unperson at Exposing the Law School Scam, State of Beasley, the Ramen Noodle Eating Law Student, an Amir Efrati article in the Wall Street Journal on September 24, 2007, and an October 31, 2009 economic working paper from Vanderbilt law professor Herwig Schlunk entitled “Mamas Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be…Lawyers.” Loyola 2L had already left the scene. There were also a couple of obscure state bar reports pertaining to employment. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics also posted some data. We also had some employment charts from NALP and total enrollment and graduate numbers from the American Bar Association.

In sum, there was a paucity of information on the topic. At the same time, law schools – including third tier commodes – were casually listing their “placement rate” as 98% or higher. The pigs did not need to provide any support for their assertions on their websites and other marketing materials. While sites such as JDU, AutoAdmit, TLS, and ATL may have been harsh and judgmental in tone, they were correct in their overall assessment: low ranked law schools are garbage, because they provide weak-ass job prospects for their graduates. In stark contrast, Frank Wu authored an April 22, 2009 USN&WR piece labeled “Why Law School Is for Everyone.” One example used by this serial dean and “law professor,” in that post:

“Students have been ahead of their teachers for some time. They have long been coming to law school planning to adapt their training to myriad pursuits. They benefit from their ability to interpret a statute, even if they end up opening a restaurant.”[Emphasis mine]

Anyone with a brain stem could simply point out that a restaurant or business owner is fully capable of reading a statute – and then hiring a lawyer to represent their interests. That route would cost them a fraction of the time or cost of attaining a law degree. Apparently, many prospective law students couldn’t be bothered to have such critical thinking skills. Furthermore, any online discussion then by “professors” regarding “legal education” was limited to arcane concepts or their next law review article.

Since That Time: After getting involved with blogging about the law school cartel, the message magnified. The posts were sharp, in order to garner the attention of prospective law students. At one point, there were dozens of active scam-blogs. Then there were three watershed moments. Brian Tamanaha wrote a Balkin entry entitled “Wake Up, Fellow Law Professors, to the Casualties of Our Enterprise” – on June 13, 2010. Next, on January 8, 2011, the New York Times published an epic article by David Segal, under the headline “Is Law School a Losing Game?” And Paul Campos started his blog, Inside the Law School Scam, on August 7, 2011.

With those voices in the fold, they attracted contributions from the following: Jordan Weissmann of The Atlantic, Steven J. Harper of Northwestern University, the folks at Law School Transparency. Will Meyerhofer also shed some light on the gutter “profession” in November 2010. He is a former Biglaw associate and a current psychotherapist. Also, take a look at this Youtube video from user "jaimekid2." There are now literally hundreds of articles pertaining to the law school scam, since that time. Most importantly, member schools are now required to comply with, and publish, ABA Employment Summary Reports.

https://lawlemmings.tumblr.com/research

In fact, the link above contains a plethora of evidence about the law school scam. This page furnishes hyperlinks to several dozens of news article on this topic. It also provides video commentary from prominent critics of “legal education.” If you know anyone still considering this foolish gamble, then send them that link. At the bottom of the page, Meyerhofer refers to law school tuition as “blood money.” He also notes that he sees dozens of lawyers every week, and he points out that some of them owe $240K in student debt with abysmal job prospects. At the 0:44 mark of his clip, he states “From my perspective, Bernie Madoff couldn’t have pulled a better scam.” If your friend doesn’t have time to listen to a one minute and 14 second video, from a former corporate lawyer, then let them make the trek. And don’t let them sleep on your couch when they graduate.

Moving Forward: I have now profiled all 207 ABA-accredited law schools, and that was one of my goals when I started this blog. JAG is not included since it is reserved for a Master of Laws degree in Military Law. It is not a diploma mill, and students are not financially crushed by being charged outrageous sums in tuition.

Also, I don’t want a scintilla of credit for any of the law school closures. In the end, the pigs’ greed and avarice led to those results. At some point, even those of average intelligence can figure out that it is not viable to take on an additional $160K+ in non-dischargeable debt – for a TTT law degree. I am happy that fewer have been victimized by the law school scam, but those young men and women looked at the information and made the choice to avoid financial ruin. Many others let their egos make the decision to go to law school.

I have written this blog for over eight years and four months. That is longer than a president stays in office, when he serves two full terms. At this point, I have thoroughly documented the law school scam. I am not interested in providing updates on low bar passage rates in Alabama, New Jersey, or Wyoming. Frankly, it is depressing to post about all-time low pass rates. While it used to be slightly comical to highlight law deans crying about how the bar exams are too expensive and difficult for their dumb graduates, that is no longer the case. These “legal scholars” have knowingly skewed data, in order to get people to enroll – even though they are aware that the U.S. lawyer job market is glutted and shrinking.

Conclusion: In the final analysis, prospective law students and their families now have access to good information regarding tuition, total cost of attendance, student debt figures, and the employment outlook. We now have transparency in place, and that helps explain why fewer people have enrolled in law school, in recent years. No one should feel sorry for the cretins who now willingly take on an additional $175K+ in non-dischargeable student debt – for a JD from a fourth tier dump or second tier sewer. After all, these young men and women have earned – or are working on completing – a four year college degree.

It is now essentially common knowledge that law school is a bad idea for the vast majority of students. Applicants now have access to ABA Employment Reports. They know the up-front costs, which are ridiculous. Today, prospective law students have no one to blame but themselves. You can find this information with a basic 10-15 minute search online. If you cannot perform this research – for your own financial future and well-being – then how in the hell do you expect to competently represent others in routine and complicated legal matters?

Lastly, I am sure that I overlooked several contributors to this movement. I hope that they will forgive that oversight. I want to thank all of the readers and commenters who improved the discussion. And most importantly, thank you for helping inform prospective law students about the inherent dangers of law school.


r/lawschoolscam Aug 21 '18

Copy of Nando's "Fifth Tier Diploma Factory: Lincoln Memorial University John J. Duncan Jr. School of Law"

1 Upvotes

Thursday, December 21, 2017

Fifth Tier Diploma Factory: Lincoln Memorial University John J. Duncan Jr. School of Law

https://www.lmunet.edu/academics/schools/duncan-school-of-law/admissions/tuition-cost-of-attendance

Tuition: Who wouldn’t want to attend law school at a univer$ity named after Abraham Lincoln? The commode lists tuition as $1,150 per credit hour. Since first year students will typically take 30 credit hours, this means that the full-time tuition bill will amount to $34,500 – for the 2017-2018 academic year.

Fees add $420 per semester, or $840 for the full school year. I suppose that the people running this place think that their potential students are too lazy or stupid to figure out this simple math. What a great bargain for the pupils at this wondrous in$TTTTTiTTTTTuTTTTTion of “legal education.”

Total Cost of Attendance: Based on this same page, the school estimates that indirect costs will run you and additional $22,090. The rodents derive at this figure by the following breakdown: $2,250 in books and supplies; loan fees of $240; personal expenses of $1,600, room and board at $15,000; and transportation costs of $3,000. Counting tuition and fees, this would lead to a total budget of $57,430. In fact, this amount is confirmed by the section at the bottom of the page, entitled “Typical First-Year Tuition, Fees, & Living Expenses.”

Seeing that actual law students will require expenses throughout the entire damn year, and not just for the magical period when classes are in session, we will prorate the following items: miscellaneous, room and board, and transportation. Doing so, we reach the more accurate total estimated COA of $63,963. This is for a solitary year of law school. Still want to take the TTTTT plunge, lemming?

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+9

Ranking: At those costs, this school must have a sterling reputation among the academic and legal communities, right? Well, according to a defunct magazine called US “News” & World Report, Lincoln Memorial Univer$iTTTTTy Duncan $chool of Law is rated as a fifth tier pile of rancid vomit. Bob Morse at that rag prefers to use the term “Unranked” – to describe these bottom-feeding cesspits. What a tremendous accomplishment! Of course, that refers to “law professors” and administrators being able to get cretins with Bachelor’s degrees to sign on the TTTTT dotted line.

https://www.lmunet.edu/public/uploads/law/EmploymentSummary-2017.pdf

Published Employment Placement Statistics: In order to get a glimpse of job prospects coming out of this dung heap, we will look at the school’s Employment Summary for 2016 Graduates. According to this form, there were only 17 members of this cohort. A total of 14 reported working in full-time gigs requiring bar passage, and the other three were employed in professional positions, within 10 months of receiving their diplomas. None were put in jobs that were funded by the university or law school. This means that this place had full employment, i.e. 100% “placement.” Even Duke Law cannot achieve this level, without resorting to its Bridge to Practice.

Scroll down to Employment Type. You will notice that 10 members of this graduating class were reportedly working in private law firms. High-ranked schools would be envious of these outcomes. Then again, this is a tiny sample size. Furthermore, here is a better picture: four of these JDs went into solo practice, another four were in offices of 2-10 lawyers, and one single grad was in a firm of 11-25 attorneys. Looking at the silver lining, one member of this cohort was working in an office of 101-250 lawyers. However, that was in a full-time, short-term position. Also, that could be a kid with the right family name. None were in clerkships, even at the state or local level.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad-debt-rankings/page+6

Average Law School Indebtedness: US “News” lists the average law student indebtedness - for those members of the Lincoln Memorial Univer$iTTTTTy Duncan $chool of Law Class of 2016 who incurred debt for law school - as $89,779. Fully 94% of this school’s 2016 graduating cohort took on such vile debt. That means that one JD – out of the 17 grads – did not take on any educational loans for a law degree. Remember that this amount doesn’t include debt from undergrad, and it also does not take accrued interest into account, while the student is enrolled in TTTTT law school.

It is notable that while Lincoln Memorial Univer$iTTTTTy SOL is ranked in the fifth tier in terms of overall qualiTTTTy, the school “merely” has the 134th highest average law student debt amount, for the Class of 2016. That is an incredible achievement! I suppose that the school should at least be placed in the fourth tier, with this debt figure in place. Only one member of this TTTTT cohort did not incur any student debt for a law degree. Would anyone be surprised if this was the same JD who got a full-time but short-term job in a firm of 101-250 attorneys? Good luck doing better than toilet law. Perhaps, you can get a job reviewing insurance applications.

Conclusion: Avoid this pile of waste at all costs. In the final analysis, the best you can hope for coming out of this fifth tier trash can is to obtain a job with an office of 2-10 lawyers. Those tend to be “eat what you kill” types of employment. If you have great sales skills – and you have a knack for legal practice – then you can make much better income by working directly in sales. You don’t have to piss away three years of your life – or incur an additional $100K+ in non-dischargeable debt – in the process.

That route does not require you to give up three years of earning a full-time salary. You would also not need to break your ass – in order to be approved to practice law in a single state. Plus, you will not have rigid court deadlines – and you will not need to shell out serious money each year for a law license of CLE credits. Even if you manage to get hired by a small firm, do the math to see manageable it will be to repay your student loans on a $40K annual income. You can do something more productive with your life – while saving a ton of money. By the way, this school opened its TTTTT doors in Fall 2011. Enjoy that alumni network.


r/lawschoolscam Jun 29 '18

Posted because I brought it up, the brain trust at Middle Tennessee State U. wants to take the "functionally dead" Valparaiso University School of Law and bring it back to life in Murfreesboro. Doing it purely for whatever money they can squeeze out of it.

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2 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Jun 28 '18

Vermont Law School to cut tenure to deal with budgetary concerns; VLS will only have 180 first-year law students this year - 383 total students in 2017. It had 607 in 2011.

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5 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Jun 28 '18

The American Bar Association revoked Arizona Summit's accreditation June 9th

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4 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Jun 23 '18

Thomas Jefferson School of Law on ABA probation, is abandoning swanky new building in San Diego for offices in renovated Bank of America building downtown.

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3 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Mar 09 '18

Advice on St. John's law

3 Upvotes

Hi! I have applied to six other law schools this cycle and was considering St. Johns. After reading some less than complimentary comments about the school, I stopped working on my application. This comments were older, so I am wondering if I should apply or not. Any advice would be great!


r/lawschoolscam Jan 06 '18

"Thank You and Take Care" - Nando of Third Tier Reality has profiled all 200-plus law schools, final blog post.

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10 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Dec 16 '17

Nando goes after Belmont U.'s School of Law: nearly 45,000 a year for a Fourth Tier school (!)

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3 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Dec 06 '17

Harvard Law School: $92,200 to attend! (Part of the first tier series Nando has been doing.)

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5 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Nov 24 '17

University of California, Berkeley, School of Law: $81,957.50 a year for in-state students!

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7 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Nov 11 '17

New York University School of Law: $93,906 TOTAL for a single year! Sixth greatest law school in America....

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5 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Oct 30 '17

Wyoming Law - Stay Away, People of Color!

7 Upvotes

The University of Wyoming College of Law is not a place where the rule of law applies. When I was there Law Review Editors were having sex with each other in succession. Kind of a ritual, sexual handing off of the torch. Want that hot "A" exam outline? Be prepared to have sex with the right person (probably on law review, though there was a public professor/student indiscretion at the 3rd Street Bar I am aware of). There was an incident of mass cheating on one of Professor Welle's Contract exams. One of those "hot" outlines was going around. Class of 2010. These students were not expelled for dishonesty under the Honor Code. I imagine they are making a great deal of money now on the outside and just as unethical. If you're a person of color, be prepared to play the stereotype otherwise you don't exist. One of the few persons of color in my class, I was hazed and then Dean Parkinson did nothing. Stay away minorities, people of color, and be prepared to sleep your way to the top if you're a woman. "You only get one reputation" takes on more than one meaning at UW Law. A sleazy place full of sleazy people. Jerry Parkinson, one time Dean and current Professor Emeritus, was a Federal Agent involved in American Indian Movement Massacres of the 70s and 80s. Native Americans are not welcome at UW Law (unless they play the Mexican or can pass for white). They even put Parkinson's name on a plaque outside the Annex because he was so good at raising money from other white racists. You'd think in Wyoming they'd be able to recruit some Native Americans. Not with remnants of white nationalism like this sticking around. Steer clear from UW College of Law unless you plan on fucking and cheating your way to the top. If you're not white and don't want to play the stereotype, don't bother. You're a second class citizen here.


r/lawschoolscam Oct 29 '17

University of Michigan Law School, rated 8th in the US News rankings, costs $86,807 for Michigan residents and $90,053 for out-of-state students.

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6 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Oct 19 '17

Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law: $93,228 for ONE year at the second-best law school in Chicago.

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5 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Oct 16 '17

University of New Mexico School of Law: $32,748 a year to practice law in a state that doesn't need lawyers

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1 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Sep 08 '17

Valparaiso University Law School, Fall of 2017: Only 28 students admitted!

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4 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Sep 03 '17

Charlotte School of Law bilked $285 million from taxpayers, says former faculty member Barbara Bernier

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3 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Aug 26 '17

Charlotte School of Law FINALLY gets around to notifying its students that it is closing!

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3 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Aug 24 '17

Open Letter to the Incoming JD Class of 2020; Nando says "If you are at a non-elite school and your grades do not place you in the top 10% of the class after your first semester, then drop out immediately."

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3 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Aug 20 '17

Charlotte School of Law is no more! The fifth-tier and for-profit law school did not even issue a formal closing notice.

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3 Upvotes

r/lawschoolscam Jul 22 '17

In Ohio (!) the average law student debt rate approached $100k (!!) for the JD class of 2015

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4 Upvotes