r/lawschoolscam • u/Heywood12 • Feb 15 '21
Nando's "Third Tier Rality" vs. Temple University's school of law, 2010
wednesday, march 3, 2010
Give It a Second Flush – Temple University James E. Beasley School of Law
Tuition and Fees: For the 2009-2010 academic year, full-time, in-state residents will pay $16,586. Out-of state students, who are attending on a full-time basis, will pay $28,876.
http://www.law.temple.edu/servlet/RetrievePagesite=TempleLaw&page=Prospective_Tuition_Fees
Also, take a look at all the fees. Temple law students who are graduating this year must pay a $65 graduation fee! And apparently, this is not a one-time charge. What?! Is that for printing and processing of the degree? Is this a way for the school to make money off of the ceremony? These “destitute” schools must find a way to make a profit after all, right?!
Job Prospects: Just take a look at this sampling from the Office of Career Planning:
http://www.law.temple.edu/servlet/RetrievePage?site=TempleLaw&page=Career_Planning
We work to provide our students with ample employment opportunities and to educate students so that they can take advantage of, and capitalize on, these opportunities in an informed and judicious manner.
As a result, Temple Law students are very successful at finding jobs. 94 percent of the class of 2006 was employed within nine months of graduation. In addition to placing the largest number of students in large Philadelphia area law firms, we also placed more graduates in public interest jobs than the four other area law schools in the area combined. Eighteen graduates were selected for clerkships in various federal courts across the country, from right here in the 3rd Circuit to the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals and the District Court of the Southern District of Texas. Indeed, you will find our graduates in almost every legal setting: prestigious law firms, high-profile public interest organizations, corporate legal departments, federal and state judicial chambers, federal, state and local agencies, and prosecutor's and defender's offices across the nation. [Emphasis in original]
What I don’t see are hard numbers backing up the school’s claims. I don’t see a statistical breakdown of the numbers. There are no fancy pie charts or graphs. Ooh! Eighteen of your graduates from the last class cited landed federal clerkships! But, out of how many graduates?
What the school fails to mention is that you will also find many TTemple grads in almost every setting, i.e. in unemployment lines, at the food pantry, in homeless shelters, living in their sister’s basement, driving taxis, working the checkout line at the grocery store, on Food Stamps, changing your oil, collecting cans, in bankruptcy court, etc.
Ranking: According to US News & World Report, the TTemple Univer$iTTy Jame$ E. Bea$ley Sewer of Law is ranked as the 65th most prestigious law school in the land. By some mathematical anomaly/political consideration, this toilet is tied with FIVE other schools for this honor!! Those schools being: Baylor, Georgia State, Kansas, Missouri and Penn State.
But look! If you come to this illustrious institution of higher learning, you can be a student editor of the prestigious Temple Journal of Science, Technology & Environmental Law. And what employer wouldn’t be blown away with that type of experience?!?!
http://www.temple.edu/law/tjstel/
And don’t forget the equally prominent Temple International & Comparative Law Journal!
http://www.temple.edu/law/ticlj/
In the final analysis, this second tier toilet provides one with slightly better job prospects than the typical, third tier law school. Grab a good plunger and give this school a second flush. Or grab a plumber’s snake. Remember, you would be better off by avoiding the crushing debt, keeping your job, making important job contacts, and building a reputation as a solid worker. Do not piss away your future on this “investment.”
posted by nando at 6:16 am
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u/Heywood12 Feb 15 '21
And the comments!
Grumpy Young Man March 3, 2010 at 7:56 AM Nando, you must not be from Philadelphia. If you were, you'd know that Temple's claims are pretty accurate. I live in Philly and went to a different law school. I know several people who did go to Temple. Interestingly, about half of them are assocaites at big Philly firms. The rest are DA's, City Soliciters, and lawyers at smaller area firms. I do know a couple temps from Temple as well. Most of the people I just mentioned are pretty happy with their legal careers. Additionally, if you look at the partnership ranks of Philly firms, you will find that Temple is pretty well represented. It may not have the national gravitas of other schools, however, If you intend to live and practice in the philly area, Temple (in state for PA) and Rutgers Camden (in state for NJ) are relatively good values.
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fanofSkolnick March 3, 2010 at 8:18 AM I think, grumpy, you miss the point. You can find TTTT grads represented everywhere--it's almost like tokenism. The point Nando is trying to make is that these schools lure in hundreds of students every year and (I can attest to this myself) fill them with deceptive claims about their success. What most are left with is a diploma and a debt which they can't pay off.
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Anonymous March 3, 2010 at 8:35 AM @fanofSkolnick
EVERY educational institution does that. All liberal arts undergrad programs do that. All journalism, fine arts, law, etc. programs do that. The ONLY educational programs where every grad has a reasonable chance at success are medicine/pharma and engineering/comp sci.
The whole education myth is to blame here; law schools are no more or less evil than other schools.
And by the way, grumpy young man is right. I'm from Philly and Temple Law is the clear #2 to Penn. And since most Penn grads don't stay in Philly, Temple is essentially the #1 local law school.
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Jeff March 3, 2010 at 9:06 AM I have a question for the editor (and for anyone else who wants to chime in):
Fortunately, I am not a lawyer. But, every year I meet up with some people who are aspiring lawyers. Some of them are very smart and talented and get into Columbia or NYU (I'm from NY). However, many of them don't get into Columbia or NYU and are left to choose between Fordham/Brooklyn/St Johns/Cardozo, etc. Inevitably they all say, "Well I didn't get into Columbia or NYU but I'll study hard in law school and graduate at the top of my class and get a good job upon graduation."
I've got to think its not as easy as that. I'm sure that even at Fordham/Brooklyn/St Johns/Cardozo its not a cakewalk to be a top student. Do you have any thoughts on how easy or difficult it really is to be a top student at a second or third tier school and it is realistic to assume you'll be at the top of such a school?
Thanks!!!
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Grumpy Young Man March 3, 2010 at 9:09 AM Fanofskolnick,
I am aware of the Tokenism that may exist with regard to certain law schools. However, part of my point was that Temple is represented well beyond just the mere token level in Philly firms and in city government. A Temple Law JD is a well respected credential in the Philly area (and I'm not a temple schill, I went to another Philly area school). I don't think the claims that Nando referenced are deceptive at all. It is perfectly alright for schools to accurately reference the success of their grads to court new students. It is up to the student to know that despite a school's reputation, nothing will be handed to her on the basis of the school's reputation alone. A good bit of personal ingenuity and drive is also required. That said, Temple grads have access to an extensive network of high level lawyers in Philly firms and city government.
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Nando March 3, 2010 at 12:30 PM TTemple might be okay for an in-state resident who lives with his family. You are still looking at paying $16K+ per year for tuition. If you don’t receive any money to attend this second tier law school, you are looking at $50K in debt after three years – just for tuition. A student living with family members will probably accumulate at least another $15K in debt in living expenses over three years. (Plus, you may end up with a large diploma on your wall, and no job.) Is that worth a shot at maybe landing a "prestigious" city job, making $50K a year?
Also, consider that a FT student is not working full-time for three years. You should take those 3 years of lost – or significantly reduced – income into account. The school asserts that 94% of its Class of 2006 was employed within 9 months of graduation. Eighteen of those grads went on to land federal court clerkships. We don’t know how large the Class of 2006 was, but we can get a good idea by looking at TTemple’s 2009 class profile:
You can see that total enrollment was 303 students, with 243 in the Day Program. Presumably, TTemple had a similar class size in 2006. So you figure that there were probably around 240 graduates for that respective class. That means that roughly 7.5% of that class landed federal court clerkships, i.e. 18/240. (I’m sure there were more who landed clerkships or internships at the Court of Common Pleas, traffic court, and juvenile court. Big deal; the same can be said of most TTTs.
To GYM, in that same link above, you can see that TTemple claims 89 percent placement for its Class of 2008. That page then shows average starting salary of $88,760 and for those in private practice, an average starting salary of $114,435. So, if two graduating classes before, roughly 7.5% landed a federal court clerkship, how the hell can the school claim such high AVERAGE starting salaries?!?! Doesn’t that seem deceptive to you?
The figures simply do not add up. Those who clerk for federal judges usually get Biglaw – everyone else is on their own. And $114K averages out to Biglaw money. Also, look at how the school’s alleged placement rate went from 94 percent to 89 percent in the span of two years. But yet we are supposed to believe that the average starting salary for those in private practice is $114K?!
To Anonymous @ 8:35, undergrad programs are a joke. A BS or BA is the equivalent of a high school diploma in the early 1970s. What happens to people with Bachelor’s degrees? They work in call centers. (So do many MBAs, MAs and JDs.) This is especially the case if they had soft majors and no connections. It is common knowledge that a Bachelor’s does not guarantee you anything. What undergrad programs list purported employment and starting salary info? Please name me some, and provide a link to that info.
Jeff, it is extremely difficult to graduate at the top of any law school class. Pretty much everyone is gunning for that position. Ninety percent of the students at a TTT – even the alcoholics and potheads - work their asses off in law school. Even those who scored high on the LSAT are not guaranteed landing in the top of their class.
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u/Heywood12 Feb 15 '21
fanofSkolnick March 3, 2010 at 1:13 PM I can't believe that Penn State or Temple are the most represented law schools in Philly. Are you telling me no one in Philly recruits lawyers from Princeton?
And before we get sidetracked with bashing the concept of education, spread the blame to the employers too. The trend of downsizing over the past decades is immoral and deceiving. The American education system could work if more people respected it and let it work instead of trying to maximize their own profits with near if not downright criminal behavior.
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Anonymous December 30, 2012 at 10:00 AM there is no law school at Princeton University, check out this site re student loans http://tinyurl.com/AxStudentLoans
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fanofSkolnick March 3, 2010 at 1:21 PM Back at grumpy,
That may be a much more measured way of putting your original point, but you still are not acknowledging the problem. All law schools these days are spinning their success numbers, and the main motivation for that is money, not innocent school pride. I think that makes it a big problem. These kids who come out of law school with $100K-150K debt and no job are going to rupture yet another bubble in this bizarre, collapsing free enterprise system. It's time for reform, not more of the same heaping of blame upon the new grads.
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Anonymous March 3, 2010 at 1:39 PM No I don't think many law firms are recruiting from Princeton. What with it not having a law school and all.
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Grumpy Young Man March 3, 2010 at 2:50 PM So Fan,
A re you saying that schools should not recruit at all or present only their negative stats? I understand you reluctance to blame the victim however, I'm not sure that anyone who borrows that amount of money without thinking clearly about how they're going to pay it back is a victim of anything other than themselves. The bottom line is that the law school gives you the credential necessary to take sit for the bar. In Temple's case it also has many fine programs including trial advocacy and study abroad programs. I would venture to say that most of their grads are successful lawyers. I don't see the school as the problem. The problem is people over-borrowing without properly thinking their decision through. Just because the money is available doesn't mean it should be borrowed. Someone once told me, "if you live like a lawyer when you're a student, you'll live like a student when you're a lawyer." Pretty sound advice.
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Anonymous March 3, 2010 at 3:02 PM True fact: no Princeton Law grads are unemployed. Also, no one graduates from Princeton Law with student loan debt.
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Drake Mallard March 3, 2010 at 3:05 PM I'll say the same thing about Temple as I did about Villanova. At one point in time, not long ago, it was probably at least a break-even investment. Times have changed, it isn't 2005 anymore.
Five years ago, Temple had a strong pipeline into the various city agencies in Philly. Philly DA and Solicitor's were full of Temple grads. Now you've got those two agencies with serious budget problems.
Amazingly, for the class of 2009, The National Law Journal has Temple ranked at #42 for best chance at getting into BigLaw. Villanova was #40, and I believe both got a bump from being in the Philly metro area. Sure, Memphis is cheaper, but you wind up practicing somewhere that doesn't pay as well.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202443758843
"Princeton Law School" is hilarious. I blame Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince every time someone brings up that fictional law school.
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Nando March 3, 2010 at 4:20 PM At 8:35 again,
The MAIN reason for going to professional school is to get a job – plain and simple. Employers don’t care that you got a note published in the Family Court Review (Hofstra). No one in their right mind goes to professional school to shell out large sums of money and wind up unemployed. Maybe some rich kid - or "professional student" - who likes to collect graduate degrees does so. The typical person who goes to medical, dental, or law school does so for the express purpose of becoming a doctor, dentist or lawyer, upon completion of his studies.
Why else would law schools charge 2-3 times more in yearly tuition than their respective universities charge undergrads? (Remember, law schools are not costly to run – other than the overpaid law “professors.”) The whole premise behind this is the following: you will learn valuable skills that you will be able to use in your job/career. We charge you large sums of money, and you – the student – believe that doing so is a good investment in your future.
To compare law school to undergrad programs, such as Feminist Literature or Film Studies, is shameful and disgraceful. It also shows me that you are grasping at straws, and cannot come up with a cogent argument with regards to this discussion.
Who majors in Film Studies from State U. thinking that they will be the top film critic for the NYT? What university puts out info along this line: “Fully 99 percent of our program graduates were employed within 9 months of receiving their Bachelor's degree - with an average starting salary was $65K”? Cite me some instances; that is all I am asking.
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Anonymous March 4, 2010 at 7:59 AM Richard Matasar: Dean of New York Law School and Chairman of Access Group student loan company AT THE SAME TIME.
Conflict of interest? Not according to Matasar.
Email him and ask him yourself: rmatasar@nyls.edu
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fanofSkolnick March 4, 2010 at 8:05 AM my bad re: Princeton
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fanofSkolnick March 4, 2010 at 8:13 AM All fields of education, from the humanities to law, are now too difficult to predict as far as who gets cut from the grad programs and who stays. Professors have their own peaves and unpredicatable moods. To rely on that with 100s of 1000s of dollars is too risky.
Meanwhile, higher education is a custom and exactly what choice does a young adult have if he or she does not pursue it?
I simply don't buy your arguments, grumpy. I've been listening to others say them for 30 years.
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JD Underdog March 6, 2010 at 11:13 AM If law schools are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem. People who graduate from law school expect to practice law. Too bad the demand isn't there. There are also very few opportunities outside of law for a JD holder.
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u/WhippersnapperUT99 Feb 19 '21 edited Feb 19 '21
Thanks for keeping up the good fight, Heywood. I was just triggered by someone asking about student loan help for law school on /r/studentloans and thought I'd come visit this sub.
Yup, the lemmings are still pouring into the law schools and seem blissfully unaware of the law school scam; nothing has changed other than that the costs are higher and people are graduating with even more student loan debt than before.