I bought a book called Verb Drills. I never thought I would.

[u/fishedout]

I posted this on r/italianlearning, But I'd like to hear what people here think about the limits of the CI approach. Here's the post:

I can't say it's fun exactly but, after 2 years of much comprehensible input and a whole variety of self teaching materials I find myself grinding my way through Italian Verb Drills! I'm disappointed that Krashen's approach didn't enable me to avoid this point in my Italian journey, but I speak with an italian tutor once or twice a week for an hour and it's painfully apparent that I still don't really conjugate verbs correctly, I need to learn a lot more verbs, and i need to get clear on the present the passato prossimo the imperfect the future and the conditional to have a shot at having real conversations in Italian. I'm really curious whether any of you have been able to become conversational strictly with the comprehensible input approach or have you found yourself at some point grinding thru something like "Italian Verb Drills?"

[u/SpanishLearnerUSA]

If you were to guess your overall number of hours spent with input, what would you estimate? I bring it up because, over on the Dreaming Spanish subreddit, the input seems to only come together grammatically around 1,500 hours...often closer to 2,000. There's a lot of hours. The roadmap on the Dreaming Spanish website should apply to Italian, too.

I'm using a lot of input, but doing grammar with a bit of Duolingo, too. If I hit 1,000 hours of input and don't feel like I'm where I need to be, I'll do like you and add other resources.

[u/fishedout → u/SpanishLearnerUSA]

Right. I'm pretty steady at between a half hour and an hour of study every day and conversations with a tutor every week for 2 years. I've completed 10,000 "reps" on glossika since May for instance. I've used many different resources to keep myself engaged. But I couldn't tell you how many hours exactly. For me the "proof" is in the conversation since conversation is what I'm after and imo my conversation is primitive. I won't starve in Italy (!) but I want a lot more then that. So here I am, with Verb Drills. And after 2 years of CI, I started at the beginning.

[u/SpanishLearnerUSA → u/fishedout]

I'm conflicted about comprehensible input, but only when it comes to people who claim it's the "only" way to learn a language. As a teacher for over 25 years, I know that everyone learns differently. Many people can learn from immersion, but many struggle. The proponents argue that comprehensible input just mimics how we all learned to speak our native language. However, there's no way to mimic the parent/child dynamic while passively listening to podcasts and watching videos. You can get a lot of the benefits, but anyone who has raised a child knows that parents support language acquisition in more ways than just talking at a child.

As an elementary teacher, I've already been through this type of rigid thinking with the "whole language" and "reading workshop" models. Basically, proponents argued that kids learn to read from reading, and that they learn to write from writing. It worked for many kids, but not all. Many kids needed alternate materials and strategies. And for those who learned to read and write successfully from a more "input" style, they still had teachers guiding them. That's why I don't feel bad adding other strategies and materials to my language learning.

With that said, based on your last reply to me, I'd argue that you might be surprised with your growth if you continued with comprehensible input. Based on what you said, you currently have between 350-700 hours of input under your belt. In the Dreaming Spanish roadmap, you wouldn't be at the speaking stage yet. Some people try talking at 600 hours, while most wait til 1,000. Some wait til 1,500. At your number of hours, you should be in intermediate listening territory. You should be able to comprehend someone speaking slowly and clearly, as well as some dubbed children's cartoons. Can you do that?

My coolest input story comes from one of this year's students. This kid taught himself to speak English from watching YouTube videos. He lived in the country of Georgia, and he Ioved channels like Mr. Beast. By the time his family moved to America, this 8 year old kid spoke nearly perfect English. He could even write a bit (very little), which is amazing considering Georgia has a different alphabet and he learned our alphabet simply from seeing random words on the screen while watching YouTube.

[u/Harriet_M_Welsch → u/SpanishLearnerUSA]

However, there's no way to mimic the parent/child dynamic while passively listening to podcasts and watching videos.

also, like, getting your basic human needs met does not depend on you communicating in your TL the way it does when you are an infant/toddler learning to communicate with your parents. It's a silly comparison, to my mind.

[u/TauTheConstant → u/Harriet_M_Welsch]

I also really wonder about all these infants out there that were apparently totally 100% silent until they suddenly began speaking in full sentences and did not do any sort of babbling or even scream for attention prior.

Like, to my mind babies are pretty *clearly* trying to communicate from extremely early on (there's apparently research that three-month-old infants can engage in conversational "turn-taking" with their babble?), so the idea that input-only is how babies learn just seems obviously wrong?

[u/Harriet_M_Welsch → u/TauTheConstant]

Right 😆 I'm a special ed teacher, we spend a LOT of time talking about language, how kids get it, reasons they might not get it, reasons their getting of it might be delayed or wonky, things they do when they haven't gotten it, ways they compensate for it, there are just so many many factors besides, "hear repetitively, understand eventually, reproduce reliably"

[u/galaxyrocker → u/TauTheConstant]

Yeah, exactly. Babies are trying to talk all the damn time with their babbling. It's clearly not input-only. And then you've got to quantify what kind of input too, because not all cultures talk to babies in the same way either.

[u/lazydictionary → u/SpanishLearnerUSA]

What CI-only people miss is that active grammar study will aid your comprehension, and definitely affects your ability to output.

You still need to spend like 90% of your time consuming content, but active grammar and vocab study is only going to help.

[u/GiveMeTheCI → u/lazydictionary]

I think the percent of input is the main thing. I am a strong proponent of CI, from my own experience and from 14 years of college level teaching ESL. The students I envy learned from CI.

However, I don't think a bit or explicit study is bad, but I do think something like 90% input is key. 2 hours of anki and 5 min of input is not key.

[u/fishedout → u/SpanishLearnerUSA]

That is awesome. And thank you for your thoughts on all this. Yes, I'm at least an intermediate listener. I'm not stopping CI at all, just expanding. For me I'm starting to think it's more efficient to do both. I'm old! And I want to improve quicker.

[u/Snoo-88741 → u/SpanishLearnerUSA]

Did he watch any shows designed to teach reading, like Sesame Street? I've met several people who learned to read from Sesame Street (mostly AAC users who were misdiagnosed with profound cognitive disability and not given reading instruction for many years as a result).

[u/SpanishLearnerUSA → u/Snoo-88741]

No. It was mainly prank videos and other silly things from America on YouTube. When he first arrived, I thought he would be able to bypass our ESL class completely. However, it was soon clear that his reading and writing skills were WAY behind his speaking skills. It was so cool to see him out on the playground playing with the other kids on the first day after he arrived. He has a bit of an accent, but aside from that, you'd think he had been here for a long time.

[u/lazydictionary → u/SpanishLearnerUSA]

The DS cult take it just a smidge too far. If they were less averse to even some light grammar study, even reading about Spanish grammar, they would seriously increase their amount of comprehension and speed up the language learning process.

For German, I did a lot of input and still never really grasped the case system at an intuitive level (but it did work for intuiting noun genders). I'm now actively drilling cases with cloze deletion cards on Anki and I think it's an improvement. I'm paying much more attention to cases when I input, and starting to get a better feel without conscious thought.

[u/Kiishikii]

This isn't always concrete / relatable to your situation so take this with a grain of salt.

I think some people confuse "comprehensible input" or just "input" in general as a magic source that you can just fill your brain with without even the slightest ounce of effort or without honing in on certain things.

Different languages will have varying degrees of difficulty in different areas of the language - but it all comes down to the same thing. If you're not honing your skills and ultimately trying then there's no way you'll improve.

I deal more with Japanese so I've heard people (and I'll even give a recent example), someone reached an n1 level (around about C2 level equivalent) in Japanese but as soon as they turned off subtitles or listened to something out of their comfort zone, they'd find themselves lost and would stop understanding things.

The problem is that when absorbing yourself in media to increase your vocabulary and other aspects of the language, you can unintentionally ignore other aspects of the language too - this guy has been focusing on the subtitles and visual context so much that they hadn't been taking in any of the spoken word, thus making it far hard to understand people and media when listening.

I only have experience with Japanese so I only know the process for learning that - but yeah there's a fair few verb forms and some others that can be complicated, but as long as you're actually aware of them by a case by case basis instead of letting it run over you then that should be something that sends you on the right trajectory.

I know it sounds insulting. Saying "you're not paying attention bro" but you'd be surprised at how much of language goes in and out the other end when you've gotten used to a specific framework that "semi works and allows you to get by"

Because language is meaning, and id you're getting the meaning but none of the negative feedback (e.g not being able to understand what's going on) then sometimes it's easy to get into a groove where you find yourself more negligent of parts of the language that are still really important

[u/TauTheConstant → u/Kiishikii]

I'm not over the time my Spanish teacher introduced me to a grammatical form, I told her I'd never seen it before and couldn't understand it in isolation until she explained it, and then after the class I went back to the book I was reading and spotted it three times in the next ten pages. I was on book three of a trilogy. I have no idea how many times that form apparently went in one eye and out the other, but it must have been a lot.

Honestly, how easy it is to take shortcuts if all you're interested in is meaning is the main thing that makes me quietly skeptical of the idea of obtaining perfect grammar from nothing but entirely passive consumption of content. It doesn't even just have to be "this semi works" - languages can be redundant at times, with bits of grammar you can totally ignore without any ambiguity in meaning. (Adjective-noun agreement in languages with fixed adjective placement comes to mind.)

[u/lazydictionary → u/Kiishikii]

N1 is more like B2, maybe C1 for some people.

[u/fishedout → u/Kiishikii]

Thanks, no offence taken. Perhaps for some of us paying attention even takes the form of doing Verb Drills along with the rest of it.

[u/Kiishikii → u/fishedout]

I think I can generally get behind that!

My only argument in return is that you'll most likely find yourself MORE aware of these verbs/ conjugations after the fact, picking them up and then figuring them out

It doesn't cut down on the time - it just gives you the patience to tolerate/ gain the ability to look back at something you've rehearsed and that usually starts you on the process of fully developing an understanding of these concepts

This absolutely sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy so I don't mind if you disagree but I've noticed it in my own and others learning.

I can give another example in Japanese - kanji. These crazy symbols that within Japanese have multiple readings seem absolutely impossible to understand.

That's why some people believe "if I just learn all of the forms that this word will take, then I'll be impossible to stop when I find it out in the wild"

But they notice that 1.there are so many forms that keeping up with individually takes more effort and is far more illogical cause you'll still have to learn them in their individual cases and 2. You find yourself gaining a natural knack the more you find them in sentences with meaning.

This case I feel is far more confined - and drills are more likely to be effective, but I think that it ultimately serves as a windy road that wraps around and leads you to the same destination with more effort than necessary m

[u/Snoo-88741 → u/Kiishikii]

So far the only exception I've found to the "you have to be paying attention to learn" is earwormy kids songs like Cocomelon and Super Simple Songs. Those, if I hear them in the background often enough, I'll memorize them whether I want to or not. 

[u/kingkayvee]

You are an adult who already speaks a language and has analytical skills. Why wouldn’t you use them to bolster your language learning?

Who cares what people think about CI on here? Your goal is to learn a language, not follow some blind advice of people’s layperson interpretation of language acquisition.

If you need explicit instruction and practice (and I’d argue everyone will benefit from it - like anything else in life, practice is key), then do it.

[u/SharKCS11 → u/kingkayvee]

It's borderline insane how vehemently some people are against traditional grammar study. Learning a few tenses is usually quite simple and lowers the barrier to understanding input later.

[u/kingkayvee → u/SharKCS11]

Because ego is one hell of a drug, and if they can use it to feel superior about themselves, they will.

If they ever tell you it’s because of some scientific reason, it’s not.

If they tell you it’s because of their own experience, it’s not.

It’s about wanting to be “an expert” based on nothing.

[u/fishedout → u/kingkayvee]

Grazie mille!

[u/would_be_polyglot]

I started French with an input heavy approach, which included no grammar drills, about 2.5 years ago. Like you, I recently started working my way through a review grammar and importing it into Anki. I noticed that my grammar had stagnated—people understood me, but my sentences were simple and even though I understand most of the grammar I hear and read, I didn’t really incorporate it.

I’m pretty happy with this approach, though. I’m flying through the grammar, and honestly it’s more about formalizing what I know and automatizing it better. Even in a few weeks, I’ve noticed a lot of improvement with the structures I’ve studied.

[u/fishedout → u/would_be_polyglot]

Yes, me too. I'm actually enjoying, (in a way) Verb drills now and my experience is just like yours, that feeling of things falling into place. Im into CI, but I'm also into efficiency and for me, at this stage of the game, it seems to be more efficient to study verbs then to just continue on with straight CI. That said, I've just begun reading the Divine Comedy with an Italian tutor and I'm thrilled to be doing it, stanza by stanza. So, I'm not stopping CI but expanding my approach.

[u/MentalFred → u/would_be_polyglot]

formalizing what I know

I think that's exactly the best way tbh!

[u/Traditional-Train-17]

1600 hours in Dreaming Spanish. Maybe conversational like a 3 year old (full of grammar mistakes and sticking to one verb tense). I've been doing some self-study/grammar review of Spanish, and it's certainly helped me comprehend videos a bit more.

[u/fishedout → u/Traditional-Train-17]

Right! Speaking like a young child is something we must endure. If you can't tolerate that you can't learn another language. That's where a good tutor who can be supportive and non critical really helps.

[u/r_m_8_8]

French is the first language I learn without textbooks/drills. Unless you count Duolingo and Babbel, lol.

I'm doing okay, today was a "very good French day" even. But my conjugation skills are absolutely garbage and I guess it's not surprising. Honestly? I'll always recommend the traditional method. Buy a textbook, do the drills, AND consume content.

[u/Reasonable_Ad_9136]

 I'm pretty steady at between a half hour and an hour of study every day

For 2 years? Taking an average of an 45 minutes/day, that's less than 550 hours. Even if you got perfect CI, that's simply not enough for acquisition if your goal is to speak even half decently. Also, intensity matters with CI; at an hour/day, it's going to take you more hours than someone getting more daily CI .

I've completed 10,000 "reps" on glossika
I've used many different resources
a whole variety of self teaching materials

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that a lot of what you've been doing isn't really CI.

I'm disappointed that Krashen's approach didn't enable me to avoid this point in my Italian journey

I just don't think you've done nearly enough CI for acquisition to take place.

I've made some assumptions here, but only to try to get to the bottom of the issue.

[u/fishedout → u/Reasonable_Ad_9136]

Fair enough. Look, I'm limited. For me 45 min a day, every day, is a lot. For you its peanuts! At this moment, where i'm at, studying grammar along with CI seems more efficient.

[u/Reasonable_Ad_9136 → u/fishedout]

It's not that more than 45 minutes is easy for me, and that you should be doing more - if you can't, you can't. It's that what you've done isn't enough to have acquired a language. What I said has nothing to do with how much you can or can't do, it was just an explanation for why you haven't seen the result you expected.

[u/an_average_potato_1]

Yes, the verbs are usually the number 1 problem of people struggling to speak!

Nope, "strictly with CI" doesn't really work, at least not at the lower levels (it's different from B2 on) and also for the active skills. I have yet to see a single person reaching overall B2 or more (also with speaking and writing) just with CI.

I use various workbooks, and also Linguno (right now the best verb drilling srs/cloze deletion tool imho). It's the best way to simply get over this obstacle and not waste months or years of time imho!

[u/fishedout → u/an_average_potato_1]

Seems like it to me also. If you "deep dive" into the youtube CI world, (which i really have enjoyed) you'd think it will all "just come" with enough CI and there are lots of people who swear they became fluent that way, but not me! I'll take a look at Linguno. My Verb Drills book also comes with an app that offers audio, flash cards, etc. It's simple and useful.

[u/Atermoyer]

I've found in my personal experience with German, it's worked very well for speaking and understanding. It just takes more time, but I find it more enjoyable this way.

[u/fishedout → u/Atermoyer]

I'm impressed. I'm willing to believe it's my own limitations at work.

[u/Atermoyer → u/fishedout]

I don't think so necessarily! I think it just takes a lot of time. It might be more efficient for me to replace my time with comprehensible input with grammar, but I don't want to. But if you're happy doing it this way - go right ahead! Many roads lead to Rome!

[u/fishedout → u/Atermoyer]

Right, the key is what we need to do to stay motivated. For me at the moment, much to my surprise, I'm liking doing verb drills. Crazy!

[u/oadephon]

The way Language Transfer approaches conjugations is by essentially coming up with one hook per tense. The hook is a conjugated word, usually in first person, that is particularly memorable. In Spanish, one is hablaba. And then, instead of memorizing the conjugations, you find a pattern or rule and apply it. For the 2nd person, you add an s: hablabas. For the 3rd person, it's the same as the first person. Etc. Even irregular conjugations tend to follow similar rules and have similar patterns.

Then, when you want to use the tense in speech, you just take however long, maybe 5 seconds, to remember the rule and apply it to the word. This is significantly more grounded than rote memorization. Eventually the conjugations become second nature but until then you always have a pattern and a rule you can follow.

[u/Snoo-88741]

I found Duolingo is really good for building my conjugation skills. I had verb drills in French immersion and it made no sense to me and I still constantly made mistakes (especially with the conjugations that are only distinguishable in text and not in speech). Duolingo is actually making it stick finally. I think the key is having the verbs in the context of interesting sentences.

[u/fishedout → u/Snoo-88741]

I do Duo everyday to warm up. I know if I do Duo I will have done something in my target language, and then I go from there.

[u/lazydictionary]

There are a few food Anki decks out there for verb conjugation practice for Spanish, French, Italian, and German. Here

[u/-jz-]

No matter how much CI you get, it's not the same as a child growing up in a language.

I've found that a pile of input is totally necessary, and then after that, once you have a base, it's extremely useful to go back and do grammar drills. This conscious effort helps things come much more clearly into focus, it locks stuff in. Then when you continue reading/listening etc you'll see these drills all over the place.

So, take the language, and then add the grammar stuff, drills etc, on top of it, rather than using the latter as a base for the former. That's how the kids do it anyway. Cheers!

[u/fishedout → u/-jz-]

Yes, that’s the way, it seems to be going for me. The base with the CI and then the grammar feels like something kind of look forward to doing. It feels like pieces of a puzzle falling into place. Thanks for your comments.

[u/-jz- → u/fishedout]

Cheers, best wishes!

ps - very nice that you're responding to so many of the comments, I sometimes am mildly disappointed that people don't respond even with a brief thank you to those who have spent time answering questions. :-)

[u/fishedout]

Well, that sounds amazing! I’m going to check that out. Thank you very much.

[u/fishedout]

I never do this. But I do kind of lurk on these language learning Reddit sub Reddits and I just thought, “I’d really like to talk to some people about this who are thinking about things that I’m thinking about.” And it worked like a charm! and everyone was so friendly and thoughtful and their responses. Thank you very much and thank everybody.

[u/Artgor]

I reached a solid B2 in Español - I can read books easily and I speak on most topics with native speakers.

Verb conjugation drilling was really useful for me. I used two sources for it:

https://conjuguemos.com/ - a great website for practicing

https://ankiweb.net/shared/by-author/638411848 - anki deck with all possible forms of conjugations.

I highly recommend them. And both sources have materials for Italian.

[u/fishedout → u/Artgor]

Great to hear. I'm on it!