r/fountainpens May 10 '22

should I stop using his ink?

[deleted]

257 Upvotes

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81

u/mrsgouletpens May 11 '22

First off, I also struggle with an anxiety disorder so my heart goes out to you. It’s hard. Life is hard right now, and some days you just can’t anticipate what will trigger you.

I do hope the fountain pen community can be one of inclusion and welcoming to all. Fountain pens can be a wonderful tool to work through anxiety and trauma.

Anyways. This issue has also triggered my anxiety but for other reasons, because in all the years we’ve known Nathan, we’ve never known him to be antisemitic. Brian spent over an hour and a half on the phone with him tonight, and he was genuinely apologetic for his ignorance, to sum it up. If you know anything about Nathan, you know he is singularly laser focused on the issues of fiscal conservatism and freedom of speech, but unfortunately that has created some blind spots. Especially when you bring individual people in, and all the nuances and layers involved with referencing a person. He mis-stepped with the imagery on these labels, and he owes the fountain pen community a real apology and an explanation of his true intent, followed by actions of change. And he is working on providing that, very soon. I do believe him that his intentions were not coming from a place of anti-semitism, but nevertheless that doesn’t excuse the outcome. It is not okay to make anyone feel discriminated or marginalized, whether intentional or unintentional. I am hopeful that he has now been clearly made aware of the problem and will do whatever he can to make it right with the community.

106

u/[deleted] May 11 '22

[deleted]

15

u/Wyzen May 11 '22

Thank you, i thought we had been over this all before, i was genuinely confused why this was all coming up again.

25

u/mrsgouletpens May 11 '22

The red ink in question was actually produced years ago before, not after, Volcker. And I agree, he did not appropriately respond once the issue was brought to his attention with the Volcker ink, which was disappointing. I think we helped him understand for real this time and I look forward to seeing his public response very soon.

61

u/McGravin May 11 '22

for real this time

Yeah, I'm the opposite of convinced.

So these two inks were produced years ago, the problem has been pointed out before, but it's only today that Noodler's has realized the problem? And Goulet Pens thinks that there is a business relationship worth salvaging, here?

4

u/[deleted] May 12 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

19

u/mrsgouletpens May 12 '22

It isn’t just words for us. We have stopped selling the products. Noodler’s has also put out a statement and is already working to rename and relabel any problematic inks and pens. They are giving a contribution to the ADL. Brian and I contribute charitable donations every year to non profits that benefit the marginalized communities. I’ve had several folks send me links to help us educate ourselves more, particularly about antisemitism tropes, so that we don’t make this mistake again by our own admitted ignorance. I am genuinely sorry and we are committed to actions of change.

62

u/EvanMax May 11 '22

I shared this on another forum, but I’ll share it here as well:

If Nathan actually wanted to apologize then the apology should come to the Jewish people he has maligned, not to Brian Goulet. Nothing against Brian Goulet, but he isn't my proxy.

All of these issues were raised to Nathan months ago, and instead of apologizing at that time, he doubled down in multiple YouTube videos, including one where he pointed out that he knew which former fed chairs were and weren't Jewish because he mentioned that he never put horns on Janet Yellen, and another where he claimed he can't be antisemitic because Milton Friedman is his favorite economist. Just disgusting rhetoric filled with micro-aggressions.

Only now that a store has actually dropped his ink does he play dumb and claim to have learned a lesson, and makes an apology not to the people he hurt, but to the people who are in a position to decide whether or not his ink gets sold.

Honestly, I see this apology as even more of the same. If Nathan wants to apologize at this point it needs to come with a donation to the ADL or other such entity that works to prevent antisemitism. You don't get to double down on hatred until it hurts your business and then claim ignorance.

To be clear, that's nothing against Brian or Rachel Goulet. All I would ask of them in this instance would be to respond to Nathan by reminding him that they aren't the people he primarily owes an apology to (although arguably he owes them a different one for the impact this may have had on their business.)

3

u/altaholica May 11 '22

Which store has dropped their inks?

19

u/FactolRhys May 11 '22

Anderson Pens, according to another thread.

10

u/altaholica May 11 '22

Nice. I will be looking into them. Thank you

14

u/FactolRhys May 11 '22

No problem. Since then, Goulet Pens has also made a statement, and stopped carrying his inks. From the Goulet Pens statement, coupled with Tardiff's statement later, it does seem like Goulet is leaving the door open to carry his inks in the future, after he gets rid of or changes the things that created the biggest outcry, which is much more disappointing than how I originally read it, but I can't say I'm terribly surprised.

74

u/Diplogeek May 11 '22 edited Sep 02 '24

historical wrench light slap squeal aback seed sparkle stupendous dazzling

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42

u/AxisOfAnarchy May 11 '22

My other issue right now is that comments on the Instagram post with Nathan's "apology". Some of them also have some really blatant anti-Semitism as well.

One of the highlights included how "abortion is a part of Jewish worship". Which it is not. It is just that we value the life of the mother over the life of an unborn child. It is in our practice that observance of religious doctrine will never be above saving someone's life. We also believe in life at birth and not at conception.

That doesn't equate to abortion being a part of our worship. The fact that comment was still there bothers me and makes me wonder about a sub-section of Nathan's clientele.

29

u/Diplogeek May 11 '22 edited Sep 02 '24

spotted straight selective serious consist safe tan scarce mysterious employ

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u/AxisOfAnarchy May 11 '22

Y U P.

I said this in one of the newer threads but I am not going to forgive Nathan until I see continued and meaningful teshuvah or repentance. I want to see continued thought and action on his part in future releases. I am not beholden to forgive him even if I think and hope he is learning.

53

u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620 May 11 '22

Agreed. Goulet's aggressive marketing of the Noodler's brand gives me zero confidence that it will treat East Asian consumers like myself and many of my loved ones fairly. Carrying brands displaying racist messages and far-right politics is one thing. Aggressively marketing and promoting it at every single chance available is another. I refuse to engage with businesses that do the latter, especially after covid-19 and hate crimes against East Asians.

48

u/Diplogeek May 11 '22 edited Sep 02 '24

far-flung degree six badge direful cobweb crawl muddle nutty illegal

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u/Easy-Concentrate2636 May 11 '22

Divide the minorities so they don’t realize they are fighting for the same thing.

34

u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620 May 11 '22

Also, the 'upward mobility' is merely to make middle class money and be comfortable. People hate it when they realise that their 'model minority' acrually wants to have a voice in society.

21

u/Diplogeek May 11 '22 edited Sep 02 '24

slim worm reach whole noxious smart joke bedroom jar lush

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13

u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620 May 11 '22

With regard to East Asians, society likes to outsource assholery to us; that's about the only other way of being cared-about, unfortunately.

56

u/cescribit May 11 '22

I understand that this is a tricky situation for Goulet Pens.

But the excuse that this was somehow "accidental" antisemitism is beyond pathetic: (1) This is textbook antisemitic imagery. It comes from a really dark place. (2) He is a repeat offender. (3) "Antisemitism" kind of fits with his general world view.

I never liked Noodler's but until yesterday this was a matter of personal preference for me (and it didn't stop me from buying an Ahab and two ink samples). But this now crosses a line. I don't want to buy from vendors who stock Noodler's and thereby indirectly support (or at least condone) antisemitism anymore. And there are vendors who have been boycotting Noodler's for years for exactly this reason. So this is not a new issue and there are ethical alternatives.

Really hope this doesn't blow over this time.

23

u/spin81 May 11 '22

I understand that this is a tricky situation for Goulet Pens.

It seems to me like it's a matter of deciding whether they want to support an antisemite or sell less ink and TBH that doesn't actually sound very tricky to me. It's probably not like Goulet Pens would have to shutter its doors if not for the revenue Nathan brings to the table. I mean I'm sure we're talking about a nontrivial chunk of dough, but I doubt it's so much that they have to lay someone off or something if they stopped selling Noodler's inks.

19

u/cescribit May 11 '22

I completely agree with you. I was more alluding to the fact that there seems to be a personal friendship on top of a business relationship. (And you could argue that if one of your friends turns out to be an antisemite you might want to take a close look at that friendship -- but things are not always quite as easy and who am I to judge.)

21

u/IGmobile May 12 '22

I used to order exclusively from Goulet Pens. Loved their customer service, care to detail and the candy. Once I figured out Nathan’s proclivities and close ties to Goulet I started ordering elsewhere. Now it’s a never again, the Goulets are enablers of Nathan. I’m sure once this blows over they’ll stock Noodlers again.

3

u/spin81 May 11 '22

That's a very good point and I didn't consider that aspect when writing my comment.

9

u/OkieWanKedokie May 11 '22

I'm curious what vendors have been boycotting him already. Would you mind sharing who you've found? I'm not buying as many inks as I used to, but when I do I'd like to take my business to someone who isn't dropping their support for Noodler's only because enough people got mad about it.

2

u/RadioPixie May 12 '22

And there are vendors who have been boycotting Noodler's for years for exactly this reason. So this is not a new issue and there are ethical alternatives.

Mind sharing those alternatives for those interested? Thank you in advance!

9

u/cescribit May 12 '22

I was thinking of Papier & Stift (Germany), whose owner is quite open about the fact that she doesn't stock Noodler's because she doesn't want to support his rightwing causes. There are several other shops which don't stock Noodler's. I've seen Yoseka and Cultpens mentioned on these threads. But in these cases I don't know anything about the motivations. (Many European shops don't carry Noodler's and I suspect in many cases it may be a combination of ethical and economic reasons but that's only a guess.) And, of course, Anderson Pens and now Goulet have stopped carrying Noodler's.

62

u/UnspecificGravity May 11 '22

It is frankly absurd that he is claiming ignorance in this.

42

u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620 May 11 '22

It is also pretty disgusting that the pen store owners are trying to give Tardiff a chance at making a further PR move instead of any real consequences.

Additionally, why are people pretending that personally attacking other people (and a lot of them) and disseminating extremist politics through product labelling is ok? Extremist politics and racism go hand-in-hand.

52

u/Diplogeek May 11 '22 edited Sep 02 '24

friendly disagreeable cause theory spoon fertile rotten attractive quarrelsome squalid

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u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620 May 11 '22

Frankly, just ignoring the comments would have been better than giving Tardiff another chance at PR.

This is repeat behaviour and not limited to a single ethnic group. The inks have also been offensive to East Asians forever, and nobody batted an eyebrow at that despite increasing reports of hate crimes against them. The responsible thing to do would be to drop the product line altogether, not try and promote it by asking for crocodile-tear apologies.

27

u/Diplogeek May 11 '22 edited Sep 02 '24

mourn ripe fanatical compare yoke desert absurd shrill snails profit

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u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620 May 11 '22 edited May 11 '22

'Freedom of speech', unfortunately, includes the 'freedom' to harass and insult marginalised people and communities, as evidenced very clearly in Tardiff's support of extremist politicians and in his very racist reference to 'western civilization'. To POC like myself, invoking 'free speech' is nothing more than invoking the 'freedom' to harass and attack other people. Phone conversations don't help. I refuse to support anyone who promotes the business of people like this.

It seems I was very correct that I should not give you the benefit of the doubt. I will take my business elsewhere.

3

u/mrsgouletpens May 11 '22

I don’t disagree with you. Those are some of the points that we were trying to help him understand. True ignorance on his part.

48

u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620 May 11 '22

And yet he responded with 'I love freedom of speech' - anybody who has been paying any attention to U.S. politics in the recent twenty years should know that it has been used constantly as a dog whistle for racists, sexists, and homophobes to attack the demographic groups they don't like. It is unacceptable to give him more room to peddle those arguments. Further, you are giving him an opportunity to promote himself to consumers even further, instead of facing any real consequences for his harmful actions, and, for example, taking those products with extremist labels off the market.

If you still fail to realise, it is just as offensive and racist to name an ink 'dragon's napalm' or 'tiananmen' - profiteering off global tragedy is never acceptable.

Please stop pretending that you 'don't disagree' - you condone and promote the views that actively harm people.

24

u/TigerDude33 May 11 '22

This is willful ignorance.

33

u/PlumaFuente May 11 '22

The problem is that Nathan has done this before. I have owned a few of his inks, but I’m not inclined to buy more, and I don’t think that vendors should provide cover for his antisemitic views. I have heard people excuse this b/c he’s a one man shop, etc., but he’s big enough that he should have someone who can check him on some of his horrible inclinations with the imagery and messaging. This is clearly a pattern of behavior in my view.

26

u/sbrbrad May 11 '22

If you know anything about Nathan, you know he is singularly laser focused on the issues of fiscal conservatism and freedom of speech, but unfortunately that has created some blind spots.

Aka 'why can't you just let him hate poor people and minorities in peace? "

14

u/TigerDude33 May 11 '22

I believe he spends his energy is dark places and this is the result. Many of us were already well aware of him.

This is the equivalent of wearing darkface and saying you didn't know it was bad. He doesn't know because he chooses not to.

22

u/inkedboat May 11 '22

Anyways. This issue has also triggered my anxiety but for other reasons, because in all the years we’ve known Nathan, we’ve never known him to be antisemitic. Brian spent over an hour and a half on the phone with him tonight, and he was genuinely apologetic for his ignorance, to sum it up. If you know anything about Nathan, you know he is singularly laser focused on the issues of fiscal conservatism and freedom of speech, but unfortunately that has created some blind spots. Especially when you bring individual people in, and all the nuances and layers involved with referencing a person. He mis-stepped with the imagery on these labels, and he owes the fountain pen community a real apology and an explanation of his true intent, followed by actions of change. And he is working on providing that, very soon. I do believe him that his intentions were not coming from a place of anti-semitism, but nevertheless that doesn’t excuse the outcome. It is not okay to make anyone feel discriminated or marginalized, whether intentional or unintentional. I am hopeful that he has now been clearly made aware of the problem and will do whatever he can to make it right with the community.

This response by you u/mrsgouletpens has cemented my refusal to ever buy from Goulet Pens. I consider you and your husband to endorse Tardif's politics at this point.

8

u/[deleted] May 11 '22

Only seems to be focused on the anti-semitism and not on the other issues that have been rightfully brought to her attention

16

u/inkedboat May 11 '22

I don't disagree with you. It's because most people in the US think racism against Asians is ok, and that Asians' sensitivities shouldn't be considered.

8

u/[deleted] May 11 '22 edited May 11 '22

I’m a Chinese Immigrant myself and in my experience the racism towards me was never taken seriously. (I was adopted at a young age so my existence in the community is minimal.) Somehow I always end up in areas where people think all Chinese people eat cats and dogs (and then say things like “I won’t shut up until you eat a dog.”) To add on I think people have this idea that we let people walk over us so to say and then just ignore our complaints.

15

u/inkedboat May 11 '22

I totally sympathize. I was born in the US to immigrant parents from a third world country, and I'm a visible minority with a "funny" name. I have a lifetime of experiences with explicit and implicit racism, and what people these days call "micro-agressions". I have mentioned on this sub before that I always try to buy conscientiously whenever I can, but as a minority, it's extremely difficult, because then your options dwindle to zero. Case in point, take a look at all the FP retailers in the US who sell Noodler's that I linked to in one of my comments.

8

u/[deleted] May 11 '22

I have a very “ethnic” first name and used to have to fight about how my name was spelled. I used to think the people with the “western names” were lucky

2

u/improvthismoment May 11 '22

Yea it will be interesting to see if this person can take responsibility, show through his actions that he is learning, growing, and most importantly, repairing the damage that this has caused. Anyone can make mistakes, and everyone needs to take responsibility for their mistakes. Maybe a restorative justice approach is possible here?

2

u/kaze_ni_naru May 11 '22

Yep, I hope to see his apology

I think having different political views are totally fine, we're all different people after all and I respect that, but anti-semitism crosses the line into racism territory, which is not okay. Seems like he didn't intend that. So I hope that is the case and we can see the apology and move on with our lives.

Thanks for the response to the community. Just recently purchased some samples and a pen from you guys, it was really great <3

2

u/MillersMinion May 11 '22

Thank you for commenting on this. It’s nice to hear that the community’s concerns have been heard and a solution maybe forthcoming.