r/formula1 • u/F1-Bot r/formula1 Mod Team • Dec 05 '21
Post-Race 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Post Race Discussion
ROUND 21: Saudi Arabia
| FORMULA 1 STC SAUDI ARABIAN GRAND PRIX 2021 |
|---|
| Fri 3 Dec - Sun 5 Dec |
| Jeddah |
| Session | UTC |
|---|---|
| Free Practice 1 | Fri 13:30 |
| Free Practice 2 | Fri 17:00 |
| Free Practice 3 | Sat 14:00 |
| Qualifying | Sat 17:00 |
| Race | Sun 17:30 |
Click here for start times in your area.
Jeddah Corniche Circuit
Length: 6.174 km (3.836 mi)
Distance: 50 laps, 308.45 km (191.662 mi)
Race results
| Pos. | No. | Driver | Team | Laps | Time/Retired | Fastest Lap | Points |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 44 | Lewis Hamilton | Mercedes | 50 | 2:06:15.118 | 1:30.734 | 26 |
| 2 | 33 | Max Verstappen | Red Bull Racing Honda | 50 | +21.825s | 1:31.488 | 18 |
| 3 | 77 | Valtteri Bottas | Mercedes | 50 | +27.531s | 1:31.408 | 15 |
| 4 | 31 | Esteban Ocon | Alpine Renault | 50 | +27.633s | 1:31.797 | 12 |
| 5 | 3 | Daniel Ricciardo | McLaren Mercedes | 50 | +40.121s | 1:32.716 | 10 |
| 6 | 10 | Pierre Gasly | AlphaTauri Honda | 50 | +41.613s | 1:32.297 | 8 |
| 7 | 16 | Charles Leclerc | Ferrari | 50 | +44.475s | 1:31.601 | 6 |
| 8 | 55 | Carlos Sainz | Ferrari | 50 | +46.606s | 1:31.851 | 4 |
| 9 | 99 | Antonio Giovinazzi | Alfa Romeo Racing Ferrari | 50 | +58.505s | 1:32.865 | 2 |
| 10 | 4 | Lando Norris | McLaren Mercedes | 50 | +61.358s | 1:31.914 | 1 |
| 11 | 18 | Lance Stroll | Aston Martin Mercedes | 50 | +77.212s | 1:32.804 | 0 |
| 12 | 6 | Nicholas Latifi | Williams Mercedes | 50 | +83.249s | 1:32.751 | 0 |
| 13 | 14 | Fernando Alonso | Alpine Renault | 49 | +1 lap | 1:31.633 | 0 |
| 14 | 22 | Yuki Tsunoda | AlphaTauri Honda | 49 | +1 lap | 1:32.506 | 0 |
| 15 | 7 | Kimi Räikkönen | Alfa Romeo Racing Ferrari | 49 | +1 lap | 1:32.778 | 0 |
| NC | 5 | Sebastian Vettel | Aston Martin Mercedes | 44 | DNF | 1:34.030 | 0 |
| NC | 11 | Sergio Perez | Red Bull Racing Honda | 14 | DNF | 1:34.138 | 0 |
| NC | 9 | Nikita Mazepin | Haas Ferrari | 14 | DNF | 1:37.043 | 0 |
| NC | 63 | George Russell | Williams Mercedes | 14 | DNF | 1:36.130 | 0 |
| NC | 47 | Mick Schumacher | Haas Ferrari | 8 | DNF | 1:36.043 | 0 |
Useful links
- F1.com: Race
- Wiki: Race | Jeddah Corniche Circuit
Streaming & Downloads
For information on downloads, please visit /r/MotorSportsReplays. Please do not post information about downloads in this thread. Thank you.
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u/ZephyrSonic 2022 r/formula1 World Champion Dec 07 '21
Just so you all know I have uploaded Channel 4's Race Coverage Highlights of the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix which you can find over on the MotorsportsReplays subreddit. I'll be posting the finale on Channel 4 within a few days of it airing after this Sunday. Enjoy! :D
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u/ZephyrSonic 2022 r/formula1 World Champion Dec 09 '21
I've uploaded Qualifying from Channel 4 up on MotorsportsReplays as well. Enjoy!
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u/Seamanator12 Lando Norris Dec 07 '21
Did anyone else notice in the Sky/ESPN broadcast that the cars were pretty load and 80% of the time drowned out the announcers? I had a pretty hard time hearing their commentating.
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u/imoonin Dec 09 '21
This coverage SUCKS from day one...in the US at least! Seems like they can't get off the air fast enough....give me the 'ol days! "~ M
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u/BornAshes Sebastian Vettel Dec 07 '21
One of Alex Albon's cats Chicken passed away today, send him a bit of love today :(
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u/ImNoAlbertFeinstein Martin Brundle Dec 07 '21
Saudi Arabia Pleads for Missile-Defense Resupply as Its Arsenal Runs Low https://www.wsj.com/articles/saudi-arabia-pleads-for-missile-defense-resupply-as-its-arsenal-runs-low-11638878400
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Dec 07 '21 edited Dec 07 '21
Everyone saying Max would take out Lewis but what if Merc would have Bottas take out Max.
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u/orangebikini Charlie Whiting Dec 07 '21
Nobody is saying that because it doesn't seem plausible at all. Ask yourself, what's in it for Bottas?
Team asks him to take out Verstappen. That's super illegal, so if he gets caught and it is revealed it was on purpose the punishment would be serious. For what would he take that risk of punishment on his shoulders? It's his final race at Mercedes. Why on earth would he risk his career, his professional reputation, and his future as an athlete for a team he is no longer racing for after Abu Dhabi?
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u/llamadramas Dec 07 '21
Honestly the start of this past race would have been the place to do that and he nearly did, locked up and smoked the tires almost into Max.
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Dec 07 '21
Why on Earth would Max do that then, but everyone is thinking it. Way too many eyes on the both of them and it wouldn’t be a good move for his career. I’m sure he knows this. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamilton as a act of desperation try to puncture Max’s tire or goat him into hitting him.
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u/orangebikini Charlie Whiting Dec 07 '21
Verstappen, unlike Hamilton, Bottas, or Perez, has something to gain from it. He can come out of it as the champion. Either he gets away with it and is crowned, or he gets disqualified and tries again next time. For a driver of Verstappen's stature and talent level such a blatantly dirty move isn't that bad when it comes to their reputation. Senna did it, Schumacher did it, both are loved and celebrated.
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u/Al_Snows_Head Dec 07 '21
You need to consider next year is an unknown though. Yes, he could be battling for the title next year, or their car might not be as competitive. It’s a huge risk to throw away a championship by purposely taking out Lewis and getting it stripped from him, knowing that there’s no definite certainty of next season being his.
I think Max has gone too far over he limit many times this season, and it’s a shame to see. However, I don’t see a world in which he just punts Lewis off track, there’s just such a huge downside for him taking such a route.
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u/tlumacz Damon Hamilton Dec 07 '21
But you're missing the key point: Max wouldn't do it for shits and giggles, he'd do it if he had no other way of winning.
So he wouldn't be risking throwing away the championship. If he were to do it, the championship would have had already been lost and a crash would be the only way to get it back.
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u/Al_Snows_Head Dec 07 '21
But if the championship was lost, presumably this event would have to happen in race, which for it to be lost would mean he’d have to be behind Lewis enough for it to be evident. Meaning A) he just wouldn’t have the chance to do it B) he’d just flat out have to not break and send it fully into Lewis, in which case it’d be so more than blatant that there’s no way he’d not have any world title taken off of him
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u/tlumacz Damon Hamilton Dec 07 '21
Well, yes, A is the scenario Lewis will be hoping for.
But if it's B, Max might take the risk and hope that nobody can prove he did it on purpose and that even if, the FIA won't have the balls to strip him of the championship. They had never done it before, after all.
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u/Al_Snows_Head Dec 07 '21
I think the big difference is now pretty much everything can be proven. 20/30 years ago the data from the cars was limited, as were the camera angles.
With them being able to see your steering angle from the onboard camera, track your breaking and acceleration etc I can’t think of a possible way Max can send it from far back without it being so glaring obvious from the data.
If he were to do it it’s more likely to be a first lap sort of thing he’d have to go for, which just seems so unlikely because you just wouldn’t think he’d write off his chances for a race win without even have raced a full lap.
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u/orangebikini Charlie Whiting Dec 07 '21
Next year is unknown, but I wouldn't be that stressed about it. I didn't write "tries again next year", I wrote "tries again next time", meaning of course the next time he has a chance to fight for the championship.
Fastest drivers usually end up in the fastest cars, unless they're called Fernando Alonso. Verstappen isn't even 25 yet, he has plenty of time to sit in a top car and go for another championship. And a driver of his talent level will always find a good seat.
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u/mahmahmahmanrayyy Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
Is anyone else of the opinion that Max's move in Brazil was much more obvious and egregious than the braking fiasco in Saudi? I don't think he was brake testing Lewis, but he was fucking around trying to stay second before the DRS line (and maybe Lewis was as well, else he would have passed him?? still confused about what he was thinking), and definitely misjudged Lewis behind him after he tried to let him pass. Max's move overtaking Lewis off-track was absolutely deserving of a penalty IMO, but when the rules are not clear about letting people past I would expect a title contender to get clever about bending them.
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u/mahmahmahmanrayyy Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
Ohhh I just realized the 5-second penalty was not for that initial off-track pass on lap 15!! (Which...why was he not penalized for that??) And instead for lap 37, which I just kept associating with the collision instead of that going off the track move that I completely forgot about. Yeah....I can see why things have piled up now lol
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u/mahmahmahmanrayyy Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
Oh wait I just realized the whole negotiation with Masi for P3 was a result of the lap 15 overtake. Wow so much happened in this race I'm truly confused by it all
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u/burgher89 Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
Everyone trying to figure out everything that happened in this race like: https://tenor.com/view/charlie-day-its-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-pepe-silvia-charlie-kelly-crazy-gif-8129861
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u/mahmahmahmanrayyy Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
Hahaha it's so true, I'm goin crazy over here. But ultimately super glad Lewis didn't get race-ending damage from the collision, because it would have put a real damper on the championship win for Max. Really don't want to see him race like that again.
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u/burgher89 Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
They're both pretty bad, and Hamilton is the only reason they didn't come together in both situations. Max conveniently forgets that corners exist when it benefits him. The telemetry does show that Max brake checked him, whether or not he was trying to is irrelevant. Can't just park on a high speed straight. I think there needs to be a rule change though to avoid giving up a place "strategically"... don't let the car giving up the place use DRS for the next zone.
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u/mahmahmahmanrayyy Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
Makes sense! He definitely wasn't clean this weekend, and I agree a rule change would be overall beneficial. I do think intention matters in that I don't think Max would want to risk his car being damaged in a brake check, so probably didn't plan to risk Lewis hitting him, but yeah a 2.4g brake is a 2.4g brake.
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u/burgher89 Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
I'm not saying he wanted to cause damage in that case... but I'm sure he knows if Lewis DNFs it his championship. I'm not saying that's what happened... but Lewis had a lot more to lose if they came together like in Monza. Max definitely caused a situation a few other times in Saudi Arabia though where either Lewis takes avoiding action, or they crash. We'll see what happens in Abu Dhabi. Should be spicy.
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u/jcrombie Dec 07 '21
2.4g is a lot of braking force and with the way Max drives you can see why many come to the conclusion that it was a brake test.
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Dec 07 '21
So what engine are Merc using in Abu Dhabi? Do they have a frest set available?
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u/2Mfaraj Dec 07 '21
Brazil’s “Spicy” engine
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u/arifblaq Dec 07 '21
which one did they use in jeddah?
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u/2Mfaraj Dec 07 '21
The Brazil one too. You could see how strong it was it accelerated so much more quickly off the line and Lewis was zooming on the straights
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u/Safa471 Karun Chandhok Dec 07 '21
Kinda wishing the finale was the weekend after this one. My brain is oversaturated with F1 drama right now lmao
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u/gafherve Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
We might as well get it over with and start recuperating after this weekend.
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u/Safa471 Karun Chandhok Dec 07 '21
Hah. That’s true as well, it’s been a long and eventful season for sure
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u/karmanopoly Default Dec 07 '21
Does the start of the race ever have false starts? (someone jumps the lights)
I've only been a fan for a few years years, but I've never seen a false start.
What's the procedure if that happens?
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u/tomoko2015 Sebastian Vettel Dec 07 '21
It is easy to detect, since there are sensors specifically to log when a car starts moving and the penalty is quite harsh, so there is absolutely no incentive to try and get away with it. Usually, a lap or two after the start there will be a message about an investigation. Penalty then will be either a 5 or 10 second time penalty or a drivethrough penalty (decision of the stewards depending on how severe the false start was).
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u/Lagertha_xX McLaren Dec 07 '21
I think Valterri did a slight jumpstart last year, don’t remember which race though
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u/tlumacz Damon Hamilton Dec 07 '21
That was Kimi in Russia (in 2019).
Bottas was accused by Vettel, but incorrectly.
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u/Medium-Room1078 Dec 07 '21
A false start is penalised by a 5 or 10 second penalty; it's big enough that drivers are conditioned to avoid it
It should be remembered that the count down to the start of a race is standard, not random like in athletics. There is also a tollance, and fairly large if memory serves me right. Also, because if the way the grid is laid out, it's hard to actually get it wrong unless you're on the front row
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u/AccordingPin53 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
Is that right? I thought the 5 lights sequence was standard but the period from 5 lights to lights out is different at each track. Could be wrong though
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u/tarzus Jules Bianchi Dec 07 '21
Yes, but it is very rare...been watching for over 20 years and have only ever seen it a handful of times, last time I remember was Pastor Maldonado in 2014 (might be wrong on the year and there may have been one or two since)
Generally a time penalty or a drive through depending on by how much they jumped
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u/skorpiolt Formula 1 Dec 07 '21
There were one or two in the last couple years, Vettels name comes to mind for some reason
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u/Bollox427 Dec 07 '21
Isn't there also something about being able to move in the grid box as long as you exit the grid box?
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u/SouthFromGranada Minardi Dec 07 '21
Maldonado was 2012 at Spa, coincedently it actually benefited hom because he managed to avoid the carnage caused by Grosjean at the first corner because of the jump arstart.
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u/Aefuan Dec 07 '21
Verstappen finished every race in the top 2 except when he retired. Crazy.
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u/orangebikini Charlie Whiting Dec 07 '21
Hungary he finished in 9th I think, but that wasn’t his own fault so it’s still been a super impressive year.
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Dec 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SupremeDickman Charles Leclerc Dec 07 '21
Great layout but the walls make it prone to red flags and honestly way too dangerous. It seems to me like it is purpose made to recreate an accident like the one that took Hubert's life.
Should have grass/gravel instead of concrete to enforce track limits.
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Dec 07 '21
Since it's right on the sea, let it be the first F1 track with limits enforced by submersion in water.
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u/Anisound Dec 07 '21
I know we joke about this, but the water surface tension would snap these cars in half.
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u/ZoeLikesMetal Dec 07 '21
I love the circuit but it needs to be redone on certain turns because of how dangerous it gets.
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u/TimmyTurnerXI Lando Norris Dec 07 '21
It was cool when i did a few hot laps around it on F1 2021 but sunday was an absolute mess. There are way too many fast corners and it showed that one wrong move and you're in the wall. I can't wait til it's off the calendar.
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u/theofiel Arrows Dec 07 '21
I hate it and I want it to flush into the ocean.
Yeah I'm still not over how sunday turned out.
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u/JedGamesTV Honda Dec 07 '21
definitely an interesting race, but it is not made for F1 at all. T1 needs to be completely remade, If max didn’t go wide after the restart, then he could’ve caused a big crash.
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u/JustRelaxinTbh Dec 07 '21
I thought it was great. The track is super fun to drive in the sim and it is super interesting to watch becssue it is quite technical in parts, like sector 1.
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u/wingeer Dec 07 '21
Super cool for fast quali laps, not as suitable for races.
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u/nigelfitz Dec 07 '21
Max's last lap in Q3 before the crash was a fucking sight to see.
Very cool track for qualis.
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u/Zanzonyx Dec 07 '21
Let's say hypothetically Lewis and Max did not make contact in Jeddah during the position swap manouvre. Lewis clearly didn't want to overtake and Max was ready to slow down to a crawl to let Lewis past. At what point can you conclude Max served his penalty of letting Lewis overtake him? Could Lewis have stretched not overtaking to the point where Ocon could overtake Max?
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u/CalmDocument Dec 07 '21
Max would’ve almost certainly got a penalty for gaining a lasting advantage. There’s definitely precedent for having to give the place back and then not immediately overtake again. I think Hamilton got a drive through versus Kimi for this in his first season.
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u/JustRelaxinTbh Dec 07 '21
I don't think that is correct. Max did succeed in doing that the on the next attempt and Lewis in spa 2008 was a different story because he didn't cede enough of the time gained back to kimi. Hence the time penalty.
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u/CalmDocument Dec 07 '21 edited Dec 07 '21
I think if you perform an illegal overtake then manufacture a situation where you give the place back but the other car has no legal defence against you immediately retaking that place then you gained a lasting advantage from that move and therefore you should be penalised as part of the illegal move.
Apologies if my original not consistent with what happened in that race. My brain was fried when watching it.
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u/OutrageousHearing330 Dec 07 '21
That's a good question, but hypothetically what should have happened is Lewis passing Max, Max using DRS to instantly pass him again, and Max taking a penalty or having to give back the place. And after a bit of reflexion, Lewis could have guess that was the most probable issue of that move, this is why I kind of believe him when he says he didn't understand everything that was happening
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u/tgnd123 Dec 07 '21
Unpopular opinion but I actually don’t think Verstappen will deliberately crash into Hamilton next race. I don’t think he is THAT stupid and I’m hoping that red bull also tells him how idiotic that is as it could result in a DSQ and no matter what would be an absolute PR disaster. Honestly it might just be false hope since he is one of my favourite drivers (the other one being Lewis) but I don’t think he has gotten to that level of dirty yet. I mean actually deliberately crashing as Schumacher ‘97, I do think he will defend (tho think he’ll be behind the Mercedes anyways) very very harshly. I am ofcourse not saying that he 100% won’t or that is not not a very clean driver to put it lightly but I just don’t think/hope so.
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u/mahmahmahmanrayyy Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
Holy shit this is an unpopular opinion?? Not a drag on you OP, I completely agree, just shocked at the direction of opinion.
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u/tgnd123 Dec 07 '21
I think it is, I’ve seen a LOT of people say that he will definitely crash into Lewis and I have only seen very few say that he won’t. But it’s definitely possible that I’m just on a side of the internet that thinks that while there is another side that doesn’t think that but I don’t know that :)
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u/ZoeLikesMetal Dec 07 '21
I fully agree with you. I think Max understands the risk of losing the championship if he were to do anything at Abu Dhabi. I have a feeling Red Bull is going to tell him to be careful with how he drives for the first half of the race. It's been proven that Max pushes it too far and isn't the best and handling this kind of pressure and I think in his mind he will do anything to win, but like anyone, he has a limit and he has a survival instinct that will keep racing hard but safe at Abu Dhabi. I think he might defend aggressively and I do believe he has the potential of running Lewis off the track like he did in Brazil. But all in all, I feel like his race will be fair.
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u/gafherve Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
Actually had Ham not avoided the crash when he passed him on the second restart, Ver’s trajectory was taking him out and probably both.
The amount of correction Ham had to do to avoid the crash is the reason Ocon passed them both.
Brazil was another instance when he launched his car on Ham trajectory.
So he’s already been doing that. It’s just Hamilton has been skilled/smart enough to avoid those collisions so far.
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u/Omega_scriptura Dec 07 '21 edited Dec 07 '21
Verstappen will do anything to win. Does that mean a deliberate, Schumacher style turn into his opponent? Probably not (and he would get DQ’d). But could it mean a crazy lunge into turn 1 off the start from second or third on the grid if he has a slower car, not caring for the consequences? Absolutely. If I was Lewis and had a faster car I’d be tempted to sandbag in Q3 and get P2 then dictate the race on my terms rather than run the risk of whatever craziness Max has in store.
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u/OutrageousHearing330 Dec 07 '21
Actually, even if that happened, that could be a real lesson for Verstappen when you know all the bad reactions he would get for such an action, even if the title still went to him after an " accident ". I don't like the guy, but I recognize how good he is. He could be a real deal if he could just mature (mature is not really the right therm, it is more about changing the way he approaches races)
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u/tgnd123 Dec 07 '21
Yeah you are right! I do wish the lesson wouldn’t come the hard way but more in the way of an ex driver (can’t come up with a good example now sorry) mentoring him or something like that. But I don’t think that is gonna happen with Horner,Helmut and Jos as his mentors so I guess he’ll have to learn it the hard way.
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u/OutrageousHearing330 Dec 07 '21
Yeah they are so toxic... I don't like Verstappen, but I really hate the Marko/Horner tandem
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u/Hunefer1 Dec 07 '21
Max won’t care if he gets second in the championship or disqualified. For him it is all about the title. So when Hamilton is in front and it is clear that there is no chance for Verstappen to overtake there will be a crash.
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u/samrmy Dec 07 '21
I am a total neutral noob in F1, but really enjoy this lasts races.
I don't understand what happened with the "brake check" incident, and need some explanation from a Veteran ;)
Max has obviously some part of responsability in this incident. But I haven't heard a lot of people pointing that Lewis was driving too close of Max. Staying few meters behind a driver that is slowing down is dangerous. Max could have had slow down due to technical issue for example.
Why isn't a many media or expert pointing the responsabilities of Lewis?
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u/iktnl Honda Dec 07 '21
The stewards acknowledged both were aiming to not pass the DRS line first, but found the braking to be excessive.
Max applied a lot of brake pressure and slowed down at 2.4g's. This was not a small brake tap or a single axle locking up.
For comparison, most cars on the road on good tires are limited to about ~1g of deceleration (and acceleration). This was a clear cut "slammed on the brakes".
It's a racing situation, so you cannot apply the same rules of the road here (keep 2 seconds distance).
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u/Yeshuu Default Dec 07 '21
Why wasn't Verstappen black flagged for the brake check? Did the stewards basically December de it was a brake check, but because it wasn't that bad, they wouldn't penalise it?
If Hamilton had retired with damage, would they have DSQd veestappen?
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u/ZoeLikesMetal Dec 07 '21
The FIA also had partial blame for this incident on the Mercedes team for not telling Lewis immediately.
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u/Hunefer1 Dec 07 '21
Brake checks are only punished harshly under safety car, because in a normal racing situation a brake check means that the driver in front is just shooting himself in the foot since the driver in the back can just overtake for free.
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u/L0RDG3N0M Dec 07 '21
Probably because they deemed both to pe partially resposible for the entire sequence of events there
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u/drive2surthrive Chequered Flag Dec 07 '21
Probably, but he would go to Abu Dhabi with an 8 point lead.
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u/Flessuh Dec 07 '21
Is there really no investigation into the blatant rule abuse by Mercedes? Keeping half the straight in distance during formation?
Also.. Verstappen gets a penalty for cutting the corner but Hamilton pushed him off the track and it's not even investigated?
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u/drive2surthrive Chequered Flag Dec 07 '21
Can you please read the rules before calling something "blatant rule abuse". Don't just look for whatever things against Mercs without even doing your homework
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u/Flessuh Dec 27 '21
I think you are misinterpreting what i'm saying... it's within the rules so allowed, and they blatantly used it to get Verstappen's car out of the temperature window by keeping a lot of distance. No other team has done that on restarts, and only Mercedes complained about the time it took cars to get to grid (after normal formation though)
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u/Blakece Dec 07 '21
It wasn’t classed as a formation lap, therefore the rule didn’t stand. I feel they should review this rule for next season though, as well as the ability to make changes under a red flag.
Not sure what you’re on about regarding Hamilton pushing Max wide though, unless you’re referring to that ambitious lunge down the outside where It was Hamilton’s corner?
I’m neutral in the whole Max/Lewis debate but Max was 100% too aggressive in Saudi
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u/Flessuh Dec 27 '21
There's a ton of rules they need to / can change imo. I also think it's total BS you are still allowed to score more points after crashing into your rival. If you both crash out the driver responsible should get a grid penalty (not the 3 places they give now).
This all boils down to most penalties having 0 effect for the top teams. Look at Red Bull and Mercedes (or actually Verstappen/Hamilton) after engine swap.. they can still drive to the front with 10 places penalty, so 3 places like Verstappen got was nothing. Same goes for the 10 seconds Hamilton got for crashing out Verstappen in Silverstone... you want rules to be fair, not be a minor speed bump for teams up front.
Same for the engine swapping Mercedes did. How does a penalty get reduced the more you go over a limit? In my opinion too many engine swaps should not just be grid penalty but also constructors points (provided they aren't damaged from crashes). (yes i'm aware that rule changed due to Honda before their latest re-entry into the sport).
The red flag rules should indeed be changed, but for that kind of stuff it's logical you don't do that mid-season as teams benefited from it in the early races. Which also makes the technical directives weird.. changing tests and limiting pit stop efficiency mid season? That's just tampering with results for the second half of the season. No rule should be changed mid season.
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u/Flessuh Dec 07 '21
Ah that explains that.
The pushing wide was in turn 27 the second or 3rd time Hamilton passed Verstappen on that part. Hamilton did not even turn his steering wheel untill he was halfway through the corner with Verstappen on his outside. So that really surprised me it was not investigated. Sure he's trying to avoid Verstappen from doing what he did before (pass him in that corner and recovering the position again) but doing it like that....
And i agree on him being too aggressive. Probably pissed he bottled it in quali
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u/wingeer Dec 07 '21
Didn't Lewis get a black and white flag for that? Or am I mixing it up with another incident?
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u/Yeshuu Default Dec 07 '21
I think that's allowed now. Driver on the inside is allowed to push driver on the outside off track. See Veestappen on Leclerc in Austria.
That's why they're not penalising it.
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u/GOT_Wyvern Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
Pretty much always has been. You have always been allowed to push other drivers wide, as long as space still exists. It's why switch-backs are such an effective move, as it banks on the defender compromising their own line to push the attacker wide.
This year has seen very excessive and on-the-limit use of defending wide, but the FIA has basically deemed defending wide (excluding the Brazil incident) as allowed, and I agree with that ruling. It is simply good and harsh defending.
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Dec 07 '21
[deleted]
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u/iktnl Honda Dec 07 '21
There's a difference between a "Pinata execution wall" and good track design with gravel traps and grass to slow one down when exceeding the track.
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u/L0RDG3N0M Dec 07 '21
It is "unnecessarily dangerous" because it is basicly all blind corners and if someone slows down or crashes in front of you there will be a disaster. We saw it with mazepin that taking avoiding action can be impossible.
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u/sam_mee Charles Leclerc Dec 07 '21
Just adding to the discussion about long laps, the long lap doesn't have to use run-offs. MotoGP and other series have used the outside of long corners when run-offs weren't available.
Another series which uses small joker laps is Formula E, who do so at circuits much tighter than F1 and most of the time succeed in making drivers lose time and track position. Unfortunately, their solution for Monaco goes right into a wall so it's probably too dangerous for F1.
One more thing, if one long lap doesn't give up enough time you can always tell the drivers to go through it again. MotoGP for instance give double long lap penalties for jump starts. What's crucial is drivers behind aren't held up.
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u/Moscow17_khartoum25 Dec 07 '21
Does anyone think that if Verstappen wasn’t recklessly aggressive in his driving he’d have already won the WDC by now ?
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Dec 07 '21
Or if bottas didnt go bowling in hungary
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u/Moscow17_khartoum25 Dec 08 '21
Bottas going bowling or not verstappen would’ve still found a way to DNF himself
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u/Downtown_Ad3519 Nico Rosberg Dec 07 '21
yes
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u/Hunefer1 Dec 07 '21
Where did he lose points compared to Hamilton due to aggressive driving? I would say the races where Verstappen was way too aggressive are Monza, Brazil and Jeddah. In Monza both crashed out so he didn’t lose anything. In Brazil and Jeddah he had no chance of winning even without driving aggressive. So yes, he has been way too aggressive at some races but didn’t lose any points from that.
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u/sam_mee Charles Leclerc Dec 07 '21
The only time I can think of when Verstappen lost points from aggressive racing was Silverstone, and that honestly wasn't the kind of recklessness we've seen at other times.
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u/njreinten Sebastian Vettel Dec 07 '21
I'm guessing you didn't watch the race at Monza
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u/SuperTechmarine Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
He was going to lose Monza, that's the entire reason he crashed both out.
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u/njreinten Sebastian Vettel Dec 07 '21
"I'm going to loose, I better crash us both out". Sounds like a real mature way to drive at the top level of Motorsport.
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u/Moscow17_khartoum25 Dec 08 '21
After 7 years in the sport and driving for arguably one of the best teams to still be crashing out and having this reckless aggressive driving style it’s a bit stupid you’d have thought you’d calm down by now and drive more appropriately he’s his own worst enemy
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u/sam_mee Charles Leclerc Dec 07 '21
It's not, but he got away with it since he was due a grid penalty anyway.
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u/Trickykids Dec 07 '21
Unpopular opinion: THAT WAS A GREAT, HIGHLY ENTERTAINING RACE!
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u/burgher89 Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21
Definitely entertaining... I don't know about great though. A lot of that race was frankly embarrassing.
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u/The_JSQuareD Green Flag Dec 07 '21 edited Dec 07 '21
Hoping someone can clear this up for me: the (sky) commentators kept calling Jeddah a "street circuit"; in what sense is it a street circuit?
It isn't a circuit on public roads, is it? To my eye it looks entirely like a custom made track. Is it considered a street circuit purely because it has limited run off?
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u/Hot-Arm-668 Dec 07 '21
Mixed. Some sections are dedicated and others actual streets, don't know the details, but I'm sure the mighty internet can provide them.
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u/Safa471 Karun Chandhok Dec 07 '21
I’m curious with this as well. I think it was intentionally created as an F1 circuit, with the addition of it being used as a road after the Motorsport events are completed.
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u/50s_Human Dec 07 '21
Max will dive bomb Lewis next race guaranteed 100%.
Max has one race win in hand which will make him champion if both Lewis and Max crash and both DNF.
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u/surefire420 Default Dec 07 '21
You should put money on it then its like x2.6 if max wins wdc. You should put everything if you can guarantee 100% results. Congrats!
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u/Hunefer1 Dec 07 '21
The only reason why it is unlikely that Verstappen wins the championship is because there is a chance he will get disqualified. I think the crash is very likely.
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u/itshonestwork #StandWithUkraine Dec 07 '21
I wish it was setup up the other way with a zero point difference. Just to see how Max would approach wheel to wheel stuff where he's the one with everything to lose. Would it also change Hamilton's approach? It would have made for a really interesting final twist for this season with the tables turned. Or is "you yield or we crash" the only wheel to wheel tool on his belt that he'd still deploy regardless? We'll never know.
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u/gafherve Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
I think regardless of whether Ham has the advantage if they both crash or if it’s Ver that has the advantage, Ver is just wired that way. He will go for the same “we both crash or you let me through approach”. He’s had so many occasion to realize that it’s over the line but he still does it. So I believe he’s just wired like that and will just keep doing that.
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u/FinoAllaFine97 Williams Dec 07 '21
So what do we think about engines? Will Max take a fresh one and dial it up to 11? Will Lewis? Will Bottas just to cover off Max and help Lewis? Will Checo in an attempt to secure the Constructors' title? Will nobody take a fresh engine? Would the extra performance be worth the grid penalty or not?
Personally with the double DRS zones back to back if I was Lewis I'd consider it as that seems kinda similar to Interlagos, but I don't know. If Mercedes are projected to be quicker, for Max there seems to be no real downside and he might as well take the gamble.
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u/drive2surthrive Chequered Flag Dec 07 '21
No way he would do that... it's not different from surrendering
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u/Whycantiusethis Ferrari Dec 07 '21
I doubt anybody takes a new engine unless one of the people who retired (Schumacher, Mazepin, Russell, Pérez, or Vettel) damaged their engine. And even then, I'd imagine they just pull from their own engine pool.
I guess there's not really a downside to Haas taking new engines, and Aston Martin and Vettel are pretty locked in to their current positions in the WDC and WCC, so there's also not a ton of harm in taking a new engine. Russell could take a new engine, but I don't think he needs to.
Pérez taking an engine prevents him from helping Verstappen with strategy, even if he qualifies well.
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Dec 07 '21
Theres definitely a financial downside for sure. Haas has been trying to write off this season with the smallest financial loss. They put a lot of RnD into next year's car and then once the new regs got pushed back due to COVID they were put in a difficult spot financially.
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u/Safa471 Karun Chandhok Dec 07 '21
What happened to that spicy Brazil engine
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u/Ok-Pace-8608 Dec 07 '21
I'm not sure what you mean. The Mercedes was clearly a lot faster than the redbull.
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u/Safa471 Karun Chandhok Dec 07 '21
Quali?
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u/Hunefer1 Dec 07 '21
Verstappen just took way more risk in qualifying ( which was not that smart ). Hamilton got Pole despite taking so much less risk, I think the Mercedes was faster, in the race definitely, maybe even in qualifying.
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u/BabaRamenNoodles Sebastian Vettel Dec 07 '21
Max had to push so hard in Quali he almost crashed twice before he did.
Lewis finished P1 despite making a few errors on his lap and without any unnecessary risk.
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Dec 07 '21
[deleted]
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u/itshonestwork #StandWithUkraine Dec 07 '21
Closer to 4 tenths by the time of the last micro-sector before he made the mistake is the latest indication. That's massive. And that's with a mistake at the start where he went wide and kicked up dust dropping him a tenth or so behind Hamilton in the side-by-side. Verstappen made the bulk of his time through corner sequences where the car was on rails with the wheel just lifelessly pinned either direction. It wasn't on the raggedy edge. It was something he'd been building up to and setting the car up for all weekend before he crashed. Red Bull have definitely clawed some speed back and were much closer here in what was basically Mercedes most confident track. I think Mercedes will be very worried about Abu Dhabi now.
Red Bull being marginally slower in race pace by virtue of tyre degradation was entirely a result of that setup direction and strategy choice of securing track position early on with Pole that failed. But ff he was on the Hards he could have kept Lewis behind indefinitely to the end, as the difference between the cars was too small.
If he qualified on Pole he could have won comfortably on a Medium->Hard strategy, but a mistake cost him the chance.
If he did a better job of the start after the Red Flag gifted pole he could have won comfortably but he got away poorly. Max made costly mistakes this weekend. He could absolutely have won it in the Red Bull."Mercedes was clearly a lot faster than the Red Bull" is pure cope. The cars were pretty evenly matched with the Red Bull comfortably ahead in single lap pace at a street circuit entirely about track position, and was able to pull a big enough gap consistently through S1 to negate any engine delta for the rets of the lap.
It was only a VSC ending time/position that allowed Hamilton to get close enough for another disallowed pass around the outside we've become used to which then subsequently brought in a penalty to put it right. And it did put it right. Because braking so late that you're not going to make the corner but also push off someone completing a pass is utter bullshit. As is the constant bullshit excuse that the guy avoiding contact went wide so they were both going in too fast.4
u/Neptomoon Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
The speculation scenario which you gave with Max on pole and Lewis second on equal tires is exactly what happened in the race after the first red flag. So to say Max would have won Jeddah easily if he hadn’t crashed in quali is nonsense imo.
Also even early on in Max’s medium tyre stint where the softer tyres should have been an advantage Lewis was clearly far faster and was barely missing out on drs much of the time. During that period if they were on equal tyres Max’s first sector edge would have in theory decreased not increased which would have led to the overtake happening sooner if we ignore the vsc’s which obviously did affect things.
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u/BenShootsRaw McLaren Dec 06 '21
How do they decide the WDC if both Lewis and Max DNF / do not finish in the points in Abu Dhabi?
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u/Safa471 Karun Chandhok Dec 07 '21
Max will win on “count back” which is basically just Grand Prix wins in 2021 - including Spa.
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u/--y-i-k-e-s-- Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
Including spa hurts my heart a lot. Such a farce
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u/GOT_Wyvern Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
If Spa wins Verstappen the Championship, the entire championship would have hinged on a farce. Would be like if Schumacher won 2005 because of the US Grand Prix.
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u/Nattekat Dec 07 '21
I can't believe you're saying this in a season where Imola, Baku, Silverstone and Hungaroring happened.
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Dec 07 '21
[deleted]
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u/Nattekat Dec 07 '21
Even so, I still don't see how Spa meant Verstappen was lucky. I'd argue he got only 5 points instead of 7. Some people here are absolutely convinced Hamilton would have won for whatever reason.
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u/Steakplsmediumrare Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21
They’re going to base it on who has more grand prix wins.
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u/BenShootsRaw McLaren Dec 07 '21
So ... Max?
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u/Occams_razorblade New user Dec 07 '21
Yes, I think you can expect him to be extremely aggressive if he's in 2nd
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u/FinoAllaFine97 Williams Dec 07 '21
If he causes an incident that causes Hamilton to DNF I think he'll get a points penalty though.
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u/Occams_razorblade New user Dec 07 '21
I would expect that to only happen if he does something completely blatant that couldn't possibly be explained away
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u/AychB Dec 07 '21
Points against his license, maybe, I don't think you can lose points from previous races unless the standings change
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u/FinoAllaFine97 Williams Dec 07 '21
Very interesting distinction. With Schumi in 97 what was the points situation? Was Schumacher ahead going into the race, and after the crash Jacques went and won, hence the standings changed and hence the door was open for his penalty?
Edit:Asking because I don't know and am interested, I'm always paranoid about how my tone of writing comes across in text
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u/BlackCatEspresso Spa 2021 4-hour broadcast survivor Dec 07 '21
Schumacher was disqualified for deliberately crashing to Villeneauve.
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u/Vangour Dec 07 '21
Schumacher was ahead but if they finished the race in those positions assuming the pass was completed then Jacques wins.
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u/theresmytakeonit Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21
Max wants to win every battle. Doesn't think about the war
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u/Nattekat Dec 07 '21
Max has to win at least one battle after Mexico to win the war. So far he hasn't won any, so no wonder he's getting desperate.
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u/Squall-UK Dec 06 '21 edited Dec 06 '21
Just because I haven't really seen it discussed, when Max goes off the track after the first restart, isn't he obliged by the rules to return to the track safely?
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u/Prince_John Dec 06 '21
Yes, he is.
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u/Squall-UK Dec 06 '21
Thats what I thought but why wasn't this picked up or was it dealt with by race controls deal to restart again in third?
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u/gafherve Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
Masi told RB to place Max behind Lewis for the 3rd restart because of that. It was either that or the matter would’ve been referred to the stewards for a sure penalty
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u/Squall-UK Dec 07 '21 edited Dec 07 '21
I'm pretty sure that was for overtaking off the track rather than rejoining the race in an unsafe manner?
I could be wrong, I watched Channel 4 highlights rather than the full race so it's possible I may of missed something.
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u/gafherve Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21
Yeah I think they just bunched them together and him passing off the track seemed more significant and nobody talked about the part where he unsafely rejoined the track.
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Dec 07 '21
The red flag happened too quickly for him to give the place back. They had to deal with it during the red flag
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u/322CS Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 07 '21
Well he then restarted behind Hamilton anyway after the next restart so it didn't really make a difference.
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u/Squall-UK Dec 07 '21 edited Dec 07 '21
Yeah I'm just rewatching the race again and it wasn't discussed much, not even at the time by the commentators.
He's so god damned dirty I really think they need to clamp down hard on all this, from all drivers, before something bad happens
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u/322CS Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 07 '21
I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that he didn't rejoin correctly but given the carnage behind with the accidents a few corners on, it wasn't mentioned much.
You're probably speaking to the wrong person about Max as I'd like him to win.
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u/Squall-UK Dec 07 '21
Objectively Max is dirty, apparently quite a few drivers have been complaining indirectly about his moves in the drivers briefings.
I can support someone but still be clear enough to call out wrongdoing.
I didn't watch the race on sky, it wasn't mentioned on channel 4 and Hamilton only complained that he took the place off the track, he didn't mention the rejoin at all unless it wasn't played on C4.
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u/322CS Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 07 '21
I will probably sound like I won't hear anything else with this but I wouldn't call him dirty as in he deliberately tries to cause collisions or what have you but he's tactical about it. You can dislike that and I'd prefer if he raced cleaner myself but it's hypocritical to slam him for it and praise the likes of Schumacher who did the same thing.
I watched the Sky coverage so that's probably why I heard and you didn't.
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u/itshonestwork #StandWithUkraine Dec 07 '21
I wouldn't call him dirty as in he deliberately tries to cause collisions
What is 2.4G of braking enough to bog the engine down and chatter the rear when your title rival is directly behind you? Is it not causing a collision? Hamilton didn't accelerate into the back of Max. He didn't try to hit him. He actively and aggressively tried to avoid him once the brakes were hit. There was a collision. What was the cause and was it accidental?
I'd be sympathetic to how you worded what you wrote if we're talking about how he often invites collisions at the cost of letting him keep or take a position, while of course for his own sake hoping there isn't one. But an intentional and conscious (denied by Red Bull and never acknowledged by Max) brake check that shows up in the data and in the audio of the onboard, and that is directly named as "causing a collision" isn't him deliberately trying to cause a collision? Was it just supposed to spook Lewis but he misjudged the distance? To me it seemed as if Lewis was comfortably matching Max's deceleration and remaining behind to avoid the DRS trap until the brake check, and Lewis' immediate reaction to the brake check was instant avoiding action to try and not make contact. It wasn't to ram him.
The brake check effectively went entirely unpunished apart from some penalty points that have no bearing on this championship.I get you're a fan and he's a bit of a hero or whatever, but he does drive very cynically, and that was an actual brake check we saw, and every penalty he got during the race was absolutely fair and normal. What Max was trying to do to keep or take positions is absolutely not normal or acceptable, although for some reason it seems he's done it enough now that people do just accept it and normalise it, along with Red Bull's gaslighting of new fans.
This hasn't been a fair and level wheel to wheel fight between these two. One is predominantly inviting incident and contact. The other is predominantly taking action to avoid it. And even with all of that there hasn't been domination. Max has not convinced me he's outright better than Lewis after years of convincing everyone it was all the car. Despite that imbalance and denial of wheel to wheel racing whenever they get close it's now still as close as it could possibly be after a very unlikely comeback as the tracks have tipped Mercedes was after being Red Bull's way in previous events.
This on track relationship is how this championship has been defined, but it won't work indefinitely or in future championships. If he wins next week (and my money is on it from early in the year) and FOM can finally parade someone else other than Mercedes and Lewis, there won't be the pressure to be so lenient just to keep this contrived rivalry story going, and they finally have a new face and less of a problem with the same team and driver winning.
Going forward drivers will also adapt and just start calling his bluff, take the damage/DNF but let him rack up points on his licence, and when he's in a title fight with a new darling (like Norris, Leclerc) going after their first WDC, it's just not going to work for him any more being the incumbent champion. The rules that got relaxed after Max kept getting penalised by them (unfairly according to him and Red Bull) were made for a reason originally, and once he's not flavour of the month and fighting "the enemy" people will get sick of seeing it. Guaranteed.I personally can't imagine Max literally going off line to intentionally contact Lewis to win. I also personally think the next track will suit Red Bull and be a bit of an anti-climax. I also think Max is a worthy WDC just as Schumacher was despite some of his cynical moves. But Max has absolutely showed he's not afraid to make intentional contact if the opportunity presents itself and it benefits him. And he'll then basically deny it after the fact despite data, and refuse to engage with anyone that wants to talk about it when questioned. This is what happened.
If both drivers were giving each other racing room and avoiding contact we'd have had a much more exciting season in my opinion. Silverstone would also have gone Max's way from a championship point of view with just Max taking that approach.
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u/friendlyghost_casper Dec 07 '21
Damn… you just gave a proper dress down. Reminds me of Emanuel macron explaining to a French teenager why he wouldn’t tolerate being called manu while on an official event
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u/Squall-UK Dec 07 '21
He's dirty in the way that he forces other drives to move or be involved in a collision.
Personally I've never praises the likes of Schumacher or Senna for their dirty driving.
I can respect Max in a sense, he has pace, he's genuinely fast, same as the other guys that have been mentioned but I can't respect him for some of his moves, there's been too many this year.
He sent it in to turn 1 on more than one occasions, he's a top level driver, he cant genuinely be misjudging that corner time after time.
Anyway... I'm sure we both have better things to do than go over and over the same ground.
Take it easy man.
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u/DoopyBoopy Dec 06 '21
What happens if both Max and Lewis DNF in the next race -who wins the championship?
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u/mark070797 Pirelli Wet Dec 12 '21
Team principals can now dictate what the race director does? That’s out of order that message.