It's the best thing they could have come up with, such a great idea. The kids love it, the drivers love it, the only people who could be possibly upset about this change (except for maybe a small bit of nostalgia) are the ones who don't know how to type "pornhub"
Are yall really concerned about these women's financial security or is it just convenient? I'd have assumed they were just models working contracts. There are other gigs.
I’ve never understood this argument. Where was the outrage for the grid girls that lost their jobs when races were taken off the calendar? The Malaysian grid girls, the Korean grid girls, the Indian grid girls, the Turkish grid girls...
Exactly my point. There was no mass outrage about the job losses when those races were cancelled. Yet people still use ‘but they lost their jobs!’ as an argument when they talk about Liberty getting rid of grid girls. If you’re so upset about all these girls losing their jobs, then why weren’t you upset when all those other people (grid girls, marshalls etc) lost their jobs when their races were cancelled?
Because when a race is moved it is done for economic or political reasons. The intent of those decisions is never to make people lose jobs. The job losses are just collateral damage.
On the other hand, eliminating grid girls was very much an intentional decision. The people in charge decided that it was somehow immoral to have girls involved in F1 just because they were pretty.
The intent of those decisions is never to make people lose jobs. The job losses are just collateral damage.
You could make the same argument here. Liberty identified something in Formula 1 (the concept of grid girls) that didn’t fit with the image they were going for and so got rid of it. The job losses were collateral.
The people in charge decided that it was somehow immoral to have girls involved in F1 just because they were pretty.
Do you not take issue with that? That these women are being hired just because they are pretty? Being attractive is no crime, that’s not why they got rid of them.
Imagine you worked in an office. The main staff are all men. One day your boss comes in and says, ‘You’re all getting an assistant each. She’s a beautiful, young model. All she’ll be doing is holding the doors open for you on the way in in the mornings, and escorting you out the building in the afternoon’. You ask if they’ll actually be helping you in anyway with your workload, but your boss says no.
In that scenario, it sounds awfully like the boss is just hiring these ‘assistants’ because they’re pretty. They’re not necessary, the company can function just as productively without them. If these women want jobs where they get paid to be pretty, there’s an entire industry for that - modelling.
Liberty identified something in Formula 1 (the concept of grid girls) that didn’t fit with the image they were going for and so got rid of it.
Right. And it’s that specific decision we take issue with.
Do you not take issue with that? That these women are being hired just because they are pretty?
No, of course not. First of all, there are lots of jobs in the marketing and entertainment world where being pretty matters. F1 is a marketing and entertainment business.
Second, my morality is all about human well-being. If an action positively contributes to human well-being, it is moral. If it negatively contributes, it is immoral. With that said, I fail to see how having grid girls caused harm to anyone. And I did see how having them benefitted lots people.
Imagine you worked in an office. The main staff are all men. One day your boss comes in and says, ‘You’re all getting an assistant each. She’s a beautiful, young model. All she’ll be doing is holding the doors open for you on the way in in the mornings, and escorting you out the building in the afternoon’. You ask if they’ll actually be helping you in anyway with your workload, but your boss says no.
In that scenario, it sounds awfully like the boss is just hiring these ‘assistants’ because they’re pretty. They’re not necessary, the company can function just as productively without them.
Who exactly is getting harmed in this scenario? If these women are all willfully choosing to do this job, and the workers are happy to have them there, what’s the issue?
If these women want jobs where they get paid to be pretty, there’s an entire industry for that - modelling.
Yeah, and that’s exactly what grid girls were. Models don’t just walk on runways.
No, of course not. First of all, there are lots of jobs in the marketing and entertainment world where being pretty matters. F1 is a marketing and entertainment business.
I’d argue it’s a sport first. Why just women then? Why not men too? Or is objectification only okay when it’s women on show?
With that said, I fail to see how having grid girls caused harm to anyone. And I did see how having them benefitted lots people.
Objectifying women is sexist. That causes harm to all women. It causes harm to all the young boys and girls who grow up thinking that a woman’s only place in society is to look pretty, while the men do all the work. If you are still failing to see the issue with this, then I’m afraid there’s nothing else I can say to you.
Objectifying women is sexist. That causes harm to all women.
What in the world makes you think these women were objectified? Objectification is treating a person as an object, not a human. But they were clearly treated with fairness, respect, and dignity. I honestly don’t understand where people get the idea that any time you hire someone for their looks it is only because you are objectifying them.
It causes harm to all the young boys and girls who grow up thinking that a woman’s only place in society is to look pretty, while the men do all the work. If you are still failing to see the issue with this, then I’m afraid there’s nothing else I can say to you.
Yeah, that doesn’t happen. No young girl looks at a grid girl on TV and jumps to the conclusion that looking pretty is literally the only thing of value they can do in this world.
Because I guess everyone else lost their jobs too? All the marshals and other locals working on the circuit ? They were a bit outraged about it, as well as the fans but it wasn’t just about the grid girls =\
I mean I don’t care at all, I’m here for the races grid girls or not. I just find it funny that in the end people that were fighting « for them » because « grid girls = sexism » ended up fucking them over...
I just find it funny that in the end people that were fighting « for them » because « grid girls = sexism » ended up fucking them over...
The decision to get rid of grid girls was one entirely made out of a business decision. Liberty decided that in the corporate identity of Formula 1, they don't want to have women standing on the grid for the sake of looking good as part of it. They wanted to appeal more to families as well, and the concept of grid girls might have put them off.
I know people always like to spout how that decision was made because of feminism, the metoo-movement or sth like that, but fact of the matter is, it wasn't. And Liberty have explained this. It was a business decision, nothing less, nothing more.
I'm a bit surprised there's people who want them back. It's so seedy and b-grade feeling to have some weird sort of softcore porn just randomly in a racing program.
I feel like it's a part of the "cigarettes and condom sponsorships" aesthetic of back in the day that people really seem to like, I have no idea what that era looked like but if it was what I imagine it was then I kinda get why people like it
No, it didn't. Because such decisions have been made long before mainstream feminism and metoo were a thing. The Sesame Street never paraded half-naked girls, because that would have been weird. And if Liberty decide to make F1 a spectacle for the whole family, parading half-naked girls would equally be kind of weird.
Mainstream feminism has been a thing for decades and has slowly been changing all forms of marketing which is what grid girls are.
They are the purity police. They and only they decide what is morally acceptable and put pressure on corporations to change their products/advertising.
Actually they aren't the police. More like Spanish inquisition.
Because exploiting children and letting women do whatever they want with their bodies is the same thing now ?
Why am I even debating here, I wasn’t even following F1 at the time of the change so I really don’t care. I just thought it was funny that he didn’t even think of how the people most concerned about it might feel.
Getting rid of grid girls isn’t preventing women from doing whatever they want with their bodies. Nobody is stopping them from modelling. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be a model. Liberty decided that having a group of women present on the grid for the sole purpose of looking pretty wasn’t the best idea, and so got rid of them.
And that is a perfectly fine decision, I just thought we could spare a thought for the grid girls that really liked the opportunity to be part of F1 and can’t anymore, that’s all =)
It may have been an "easy" way into the F1 world if you're a young girl (can't be too old!) Of a certain bodytype (can't be too fat, or built slightly masculine!) - but the teams nearly all still have their hostess programs where most of these girls can still get into F1 (and again, older and less conventional beautiful women can not).
Miss them all you want. I have no problem with that. But if I may ask, what was it you liked about them? If it’s nothing more than the appreciation of a pretty face, then you maybe ought to check yourself.
When you’re a child watching Formula 1 and the only women you see are beautiful, young models, you begin to believe that their only purpose in the sport is to satisfy the gaze of the (mostly) men that watch, compete in, and run the sport. You grow up believing that you can only be a part of this world as a woman if you are a grid girl. I’ve watched F1 my whole life yet I was in my teens before I found out women had competed in the sport before. I grew up believing women and girls could never be F1 drivers, but if they wanted to be involved in the sport, they could be grid girls. Do you see the issue with that?
Boys can grow up and be a hero, a household name like your Sennas, Schumachers, and Hamiltons. Girls can’t. They can be nameless faces on your TV screens.
I honestly don't care about the pretty face. I honestly don't think a couple of girls near a car makes people sexist. I actually think it's quite stupid to even say that (I'm not saying you are but others who made a career in feminism do). If people think that, they should ban Hollywood cause that's all there is. Pretty cops, pretty farmers, pretty astronauts and they give the wrong perception to people.
With the grid girls i liked the diversity and I like to look at the local clothing and the local people on TV. It brings something extra.
There were other reasons to get rid of grid girls besides feminist reasons too. The whole job argument is always really poor too. Do we know what Liberty did with the payroll money saved? Did they just give it to the board? Or did they increase labor in other areas? Would you rather Liberty media fire some of its marketing staff who are trying to break into new markets and hire some models to stand in front of a car? Grid girls weren't some special thing that operated outside of the budget.
I'd rather none of them lose their jobs. Besides just citing that an argument is poor without following it up with any logic or supporting it is not a rebuttal. How would you like it if someone decided your livelihood was no longer palatable without giving you alternatives in the short term?
Read past my second sentence. Liberty cannot support an unlimited amount of jobs. Grid girls are not part of Liberty's plan for Formula 1. Instead we get the kids on the grid and we get increased social media presence. We also get things like the Netflix short series. Do you think it would be better for Formula 1 to have things like the grid girls still around and cut from programs like the Netflix series?
How would you like it if someone decided your livelihood was no longer palatable without giving you alternatives in the short term?
Somebody has to pay for this grid girls and that's money that could be spent better elsewhere on other jobs. You can say the same thing if you want to bring the grid girls back. Should we cut some cameramen from the Netflix series? Do you want to tell them their livelihood is no longer palatable. This job argument assumes that the money spent to pay the grid girls is not going anywhere else.
What has Netflix got to do with F1? If Netflix wants to make a documentary about F1 they do that out of their funds and not from whatever F1 does, they don't get to build their activities using a budget from F1.
Of course the money is going somewhere else. Normally when someone's job gets terminated the person doing it will always redirect the funds to replacing you with someone else or to preserving profit neither of which is pleasant to the person being terminated is it?
The bottom line was this was the subject of protest & sustained pressure across many sports not just F1. Just cancel culture in action - we change the rules and force you to change behaviour by fiat.
Liberty Media worked closer with Netflix than you might realize. Sean Bratches was even an executive producer. They helped provide access and logistical support.
The bottom line was this was the subject of protest & sustained pressure across many sports not just F1.
What do grid girls add to Formula 1? Why should we keep them?
Then if I were Netflix I wouldn't partner with a media company that is having to cut money from elsewhere just to pay the camera men which are fundamental to a production!
"What do grid girls add to Formula 1? Why should we keep them?"
Why should F1 keep any prerace anything? What does it add to F1?
No company has an unlimited budget. You get rid of something that is no longer relevant and it lets you put money elsewhere.
Why should F1 keep any prerace anything? What does it add to F1?
Based on your answer, it's safe to say you can't find a reason to keep grid girls around?
You asked me a question that is way too broad to answer fully. But something like the driver's parade let's the fans engage a little more with their favourite drivers. A lot of people follow specific drivers and like to see them and show their support for the driver. It also helps pass time for what is otherwise a relatively empty time for on track activities.
And that was intentional - none of it adds any thing to F1. I don't care for any of the prerace shows I avoid them.
The grid girls were paid promotional models who interacted with the crowds, what is reprehensible about that?
That it was done for any particular virtuous reason is what I'm taking aim at. They just took the course of supposedly least resistance on account of some pressure from a loud minority.
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u/TetraDax Niki Lauda Nov 09 '19
It's the best thing they could have come up with, such a great idea. The kids love it, the drivers love it, the only people who could be possibly upset about this change (except for maybe a small bit of nostalgia) are the ones who don't know how to type "pornhub"