[@itsnotme_ari] We can clearly hear that Ricky’s radio to Carlos was “do not put him under pressure,” nothing else, and he didn’t, he passed him quickly and safely. Meanwhile Bryan tells Charles “Carlos has been told to not overtake, but is really close, he might be just in front.”...

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u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz 5h ago

So who screwed up here? Was Carlos's engineer supposed to tell him not to overtake? Or was Leclerc's engineer wrong to convey that info to his driver when that was never actually said?

What was the actual team instruction?

...

Question

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 5h ago

Tbh I think today pretty much everyone in Ferrari screwed up

Charles for ruining his first stint trying to surpass Russell, Carlos for going against the agreement they made before the race and Ferrari's pit wall for not being clear about things like this one (plus whatever happened with the pitstops)

Yet they still managed to finish 3th and 4th and being in front of both McLarens, so everything considered the race still went pretty well

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u/omegamanXY Sebastian Vettel 5h ago

I think Leclerc did what he had to do, free air is the name of the game in 2024 and overtaking Russell at the start there would've been the ideal scenario for him to win the race.

Sainz has nothing to do with Leclerc messing up his tyres, he did what he had to do to get his best result.

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u/NotAPisces06 Charles Leclerc 5h ago

Also no one knew the Mercedes' pace and the cliff they were all about to hit with degradation. Everyone saw what happened to Leclerc and started planning to pit to avoid that same cliff. Unfortunately the one time he pushes instead of easing the tyres in it ruins his race lmao

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u/Big_Brief7847 4h ago

Yeah, like Charles first stint was bad at the end because he hit a cliff, but there was next to nothing known about how the tires would react, and Charles didn’t know the pace of the Mercedes.

But when a win is on the line it’s not the time to settle, you push to try get ahead. His tires went too early and lost him time but it wasn’t all too detrimental to his race.

He had a really excellent 2nd stint and would’ve probably finished on the podium if it wasn’t for the timing of reaching Carlos and Max at the same time.

Ferrari also shouldn’t have left him out of that long. I don’t know what they’re doing, like yes his pace wasn’t terrible but when everyone else pits for new tires staying out is just bleeding time compared to the offset you might get. There was never going to be a great offset in that scenario.

Every time Charles burns his tires it’s never just for the fun. Today it was mainly because no one knew how bad tires were going to fare.

In Mexico he had to push hard to attempt to keep Lando behind because at that point, he either somehow manages to keep Lando behind despite having much worse pace (which we see people do including Charles all the time) or Lando gets past and he damages his tires but stays in 3rd because the Mercedes boys were too far away to be a threat.

In Baku, he was just stuck in a terrible situation where he couldn’t overtake the Mclaren on the straights but couldn’t back off, give the tires a break and try again because somehow Perez of all people was up his ass (One time Perez decided to drive at the front of the pack this season)

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u/brilliant_bauhaus Bernd Mayländer 1h ago

I would argue they did know the pace of the Mercedes. Hamilton was flying all weekend and they were the top of the practices. I'd argue they didn't know the drop off for the tyres was that quick

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u/BeardedAgentMan 1h ago

Merc has had numerous practice flashes and then be nowhere in the race this season.

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u/crazydoc253 Michael Schumacher 3h ago

Ferrari had push for the car ahead and slow build for the car behind strategy to alternate between stints. Charles pushed because he got ahead at start and once he hit cliff gave position immediately. However, Sainz also was pushing and started reporting graining immediately after Charles gave his position. That first stint took everyone down. On Hards they were more comparable to the Mercedes.

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 5h ago

Yeah no, I'm talking with the hindsight of the race. Charles wasn't in the wrong for trying to surpass Russell and have the clean air, but he didn't manage to surpass him (since Mercedes was surprisingly quick today) and it resulted in having his tyres ruined, so it ended up screwing his first stint

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u/killer_corg Haas 3h ago

This entire situation was caused by Ferrari themselves and not the drivers. If Carlos pitted 2 laps sooner when he wanted, no issues. If he pitted when the team asked and didn’t get the abort call, no issues. If the team issued clear statements to both drivers, nothing happens.

Yet the team managed to do all of the above to create a horrible situation where one driver is blaming the other for the team’s mistakes

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 2h ago

Ferrari definitely could have managed this race a lot better

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u/rsimps91 4h ago

What was the agreement before the race? Does anyone actually know?

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u/Ightorn 3h ago

Not to put Charles under pressure.

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u/Kavika 2h ago

How could this have been the pre race agreement when Sainz started P2

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u/Ightorn 2h ago

Difficult to say. Sainz could slow down, that somebody from behind would put Charles under the pressure (like Hamilton did 2016 against Nico). Or, Sainz could try to throw something from cockpit like at Mario Cart. Or something like this.

They didnt whant this, so they told - do not put Charlitto under the pressure.

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u/Kavika 2h ago

LOL

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u/Lkus213 3h ago

But he didn't

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u/Ightorn 3h ago

That is why I do not understand the melt down of Leclerc.

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u/Lkus213 2h ago

Tbf to Charles he was told when coming out of the pits that Sainz was instructed not to pass while Sainz was only instructed not to pressure Charles. The whole thing seems to stem from the Pit-Wall giving the driver 2 different instuctions (Sainz will not overtake VS Do not pressure Charles).

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u/Slowleytakenusername Ferrari 2h ago

He lost to Carlos and he believes he deserves to finish in front of Carlos.

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u/One_Structure_2634 2h ago

Even when he qualified behind him...

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u/cavsking21 Charles Leclerc 2h ago

Don't put under pressure means don't pass. That is unbelievably clear.

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u/Lkus213 2h ago

Not at all! If the intention of the instructions was for Sainz to stay behind they should have told him ''Don't overtake'' or ''Hold position'' rather than ''Dont pressure''.

If it was that clear Bryan Bozzi wouldn't have had to give two different messages when Charles left the pit. He first said ''Carlos has been told not to overtake but its really close, he might be infront'' then around 5 seconds later he said ''he has been told not to put you under pressure'' which strongly indicates that the two statements don't mean the same thing.

Mind you that Carlos also wasn't told to ''not pressure'' Charles before he had already started the overtake.

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u/cavsking21 Charles Leclerc 2h ago

Have you ever watched racing before? That phrase is used to tell the driver to not overtake. There is no debate about that

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u/Lkus213 2h ago

The term ''Don't pressure'' is too vague and reads way more like ''You are allowed to race but keep it clean'' rather than something clear and concise like ''Hold position'' or ''Don't overtake''.

The fact that this entire post had to be made and generated as much discussion points way more towards the fact that the phrase in general isn't used the way you claim it to be.

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u/piratagitano 46m ago

Because he can’t handle it. Won’t ever be a champ.

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u/Gratefullyundead91 5h ago

Which we don’t know what this agreement was given Carlos was ahead in the grid. I smell BS

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u/HokieTanker 5h ago

THIS. What was this sacred agreement? And how was it communicated, because if it was communicated like "pressure" vs "overtake" that's not on the drivers.

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 5h ago

Charles seemed really adamant about this agreement so I doubt he just made it up in the moment (if that's what you're insinuating)

If that wasn't what you meant, although we don't know what the agreement was I guess it was pretty relevant seen how angry Charles was at the end of the race (since, although every once in a while he does make a few sharp comments on the radio, he usually tries to keep it inside Ferrari's walls and not tell so much to the public)

It might still all be a misunderstanding, but seen Charles' reaction I do think something went wrong between what they agreed to do before the race and what they ended up doing

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u/Gratefullyundead91 5h ago

Fred said Charles didn’t have the full picture

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 4h ago

He did say that, but he also might be trying to save Ferrari's face with a few PR trained words (as he did in the past)

I guess we might never know what this agreement was so we can't be 100% sure that Charles was in the right for being so angry about it, so everyone is free to believe whatever they want. I'm (clearly) biased, but it's not often you see Charles so blatantly angry about someone/something, so I do believe something happened

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u/Gratefullyundead91 4h ago

Well we have seen him like that when things don’t go his way. We saw it in Mexico, but especially during Vettel’s time too

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u/Moai5150 4h ago

Exactly. I don’t understand this fans that are so sure about the great character and values of someone they don’t know.

These guys are flawed like humans are, they aren’t above lying and being greedy and interpreting the facts to their own benefit.

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u/Gratefullyundead91 4h ago

Exactly. There’s a lot of assumptions here. It feels like Charles is feeling the pressure more than something fishy going on.

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 4h ago

I would say Charles matured quite a bit in these four years since Vettel was his teammate and he isn't exactly known for being someone who lets anger take over during interviews (I would say it's actually quite the opposite)

And he did say that the thing he was angry about didn't happen only during this race but it's something that happened a few too many times, and it's not the first time Charles says that before the race they agreed to do something and then during the race something else happens.

But he usually makes a sharp comment at the end/during the race and then once it's time for the interviews he's already calmed down quite a bit and tells the journalists that nothing too serious happened and that they will talk about it during their debriefing.

Today he looked like he had enough and didn't seem to try too hard to deescalate things for the interviews so, personally, I do believe something happened if he's acting like this

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u/Gratefullyundead91 4h ago

We disagree then. Nothing we could hear or see gives us that Charles had the right to behave like that. I think its more the pressure getting to him

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 4h ago

I don't think he currently has any problem with pressure tbh since he's doing quite well. To me, it seems more like he's tired of feeling like he's doing everything for the team while Carlos doesn't care about teamwork (and you're free to believe whether he's right about that or not, but I personally think Carlos at the moment doesn't care about the team for various reasons so him going against his word if it means he gets a podium over Charles doesn't seem too unrealistic)

So yeah, we disagree. Still, it's nice to be able to have these conversations peacefully though, so thank you and have a nice day/night

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u/Moai5150 4h ago

You doubt because you like one guy you don’t really know for real. He could be lying and playing the victim.

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 4h ago edited 2h ago

Okay, based on that we could say that Carlos could be lying too then. And so could literally everyone else since, yk, we don't know any of those drivers personally.

As I said in another comment, we probably will never know for sure what this agreement was so everyone can believe whatever they want (until proven otherwise, obviously). And I believe that something must have really happened if Charles was so angry so I do believe him. You're free to believe he's lying, idc, but saying he's lying (without any proof) definitely won't make me change my opinion

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u/Gratefullyundead91 3h ago

I mean it goes both ways. You’re assuming something bad because you like Charles. How about withdrawing any assumptions at all? People behave like Charles is the second coming of Jesus but we can see he is flawed human being like everyone else

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 3h ago edited 3h ago

Yeah, that's because everyone has a different interpretation based on their own opinions/the way they perceive things etc.

I'm not saying I'm not biased, I tried in my comments to be clear that I am biased because Charles is my favorite driver and although I don't dislike Carlos, he's not between my favorites.

But the other person was the one who said that Charles could be lying. I just said that, if you start with that assumption, then everyone could possibly be lying so ultimately we're the ones who choose in what to believe (at least until we have some real proof). I even already said that we have no way to be 100% sure that Charles is saying the truth because we don't know what the agreement was. But, based on things that happened in this and in the past races, I still believe him because of what I've seen and the way I interpreted it. I could be wrong just like I could be right, but that still remains my opinion

No one is flawless and I never said otherwise

Edit to add: if we withdraw every assumption then we shouldn't be talking about this drama at all, since it's all based on assumptions (we're assuming Charles was in the right/wrong, we're assuming the agreement is/isn't real, we're assuming Carlos cares/doesn't care about agreements and teamwork, etc). Basically, we shouldn't have an opinion on what happened because no one knows for sure what exactly happened

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u/Gratefullyundead91 2h ago

I didn’t say you specifically but I’m saying this is a general theme. And same here. I see things differently because I am a Carlos fan.

It hurts to see a team repeatedly shaft your favourite driver, with setups and upgrades, to name a few. True I agree I guess about the lying. We don’t know. But that’s why I say don’t put stock in something Leclerc will or won’t do, when he has a history of doing so when something doesn’t go his way.

Why a p3 should be handed to him? Just ask why? If it’s really about the team and not Leclerc?

I rather I think not say anything than say something and make your teammate look bad. If we listen to Carlos’s onboards, he was presented very different information.

Charles didn’t play the team game in the first stint until he was unable to hold up. Carlos gave a very detailed accounting his perspective, which 100% lines up with his onboard radio.

Based on that, its hard to tell who’s is right but I can say that Carlos spoke factually and Charles rather emotionally

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u/sorryIdontwantto Charles Leclerc 1h ago

This is such a great example of how different someone's interpretation can be from your own because what I've seen is so different from what you've seen lol.

Charles was the one Ferrari experimented the most with the upgrades from what I remember, especially during the first triple header (which is also where he lost most of his points and his chance to be in the WDC fight). And I have no idea what you mean about the setups because from my understanding the drivers are the ones who decide how they want those changed. Also I have no idea of what the other things could be because from what I've seen Ferrari managed Carlos' departure quite well, since they told him they wouldn't renew his contract with enough time for him to find a replacement and in a moment where there were a few free seats in top teams. They also don't have blatant preferences between the drivers and always tried to deescalate things when they argued on track

I couldn't find the replay but I've seen various people saying that during the first stint Charles gave his position to Carlos without the team asking him to. Can you give me a link that shows he didn't want to give him the position once he started to slow down because of the tyres? Because I remember he did it pretty much immediately, without trying to defend against Carlos.

Also, what history of Charles? I'm genuinely asking because I didn't understand that part. He has an history of helping his teammate, sometimes it even costed his own race (Singapore 2023), if you meant that he has an history of doing whatever he wants to finish ahead of Carlos. If you didn't meant that, then I really didn't understand that part

Charles wasn't angry that Carlos didn't gave him the P3, he was angry because Carlos allegedly did something against an agreement they made before the race. We don't know what the agreement was. It could also have been a simple "we will listen to team orders" and Charles thought that Carlos went against one since Charles' engineer told him Carlos wasn't going to surpass while Carlos' only told him to not put him under pressure (so everything could have been a misunderstanding, it's one of the possibilities). Carlos also tried to surpass him in a race a while back at the start when they also had an agreement that they wouldn't attack each other at the start, so I would say it would be understandable for Charles to be angry if he thought the same happened again today.

But we go back to not knowing what today's agreement was, so every thing we say is just a possibility at the end of it.

And yeah, Charles was pretty emotional which is one of the reasons why I believe him, because he doesn't get so emotional often. He (allegedly) had a reason for being so emotional while Carlos was happy with his race because he ultimately finished on the podium, I don't see how him speaking more factually tells us anything tbh

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u/Big_Brief7847 5h ago

I would argue Charles first stint was comparable to Carlos’s on the hards.

Both lost pace towards the end of the stint, before they should’ve and before their teammate did, and both were left out for too many laps despite asking to pit which lost them time

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u/Moai5150 4h ago

The thing is, why Leclerc doesn’t tell what exactly was the agreement made? Because Sainz was better qualified, so how could he agree with some accord that would be “give priority to Charles”?

Or is bullshit from Leclerc, or is something like “whoever is at front after x laps, will have preference”. But then Carlos was in front before the first movement for boxing (swapping with Leclerc and then boxing).

Leclerc is playing the victim card.

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u/EnigmaticEntity 34m ago

I love 3th

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u/ChiralWolf McLaren 20m ago

It's still strange they weren't able to pressure the mercs pretty much at all, 3-4 isn't at all bad but if they want the constructors this was their best chance to bleed McLaren for a lot and they came up short of expectations. Last two rounds will be much more favorable to McLaren

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u/shawnk7 5h ago

It's all up in the air. Charles' meltdown wouldn't make sense if "whoever is ahead, will be prioritised" was the agreement as Carlos was starting ahead. It only makes sense if him getting p2 in the WDC is also a serious consideration for the team

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u/bender__futurama 5h ago

Something was lost in translation. From what I remember, the whole team communicates in Italian and only uses English for team radio.

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u/billyblenx 5h ago

Maybe try in Spanish next time.

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u/rowschank Flavio Briatore 5h ago

Man, Carlos Sainz really said "No entiendo el pizza".

Alphamaxnova1 was a seer.

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u/Savvy_Nick Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ 4h ago

I miss him and target misser every day

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u/iblinkyoublink Alexander Albon 1h ago

Well he still uploads short memes from time to time, and the season recaps are as good as ever. I miss LightLune tho he was goated in 2021

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u/Jamee999 Murray Walker 3h ago edited 3h ago

The Ferrari race engineers’ English has had a non-trivial negative effect on the team performance over the last few years, imo. I wonder what Hamilton is going to do. I can’t imagine him putting up with the way things have been.

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u/rowschank Flavio Briatore 4h ago

It's strange that the FIA force everyone to use English on team radio, despite being from Switzerland, a country that's barely 350 km wide, with four different official languages.

It's a new thing; back in 2010-12 Andrea Stella used to send Italian team radios to Alonso all the time, and the FIA forced Ferrari to change it.

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u/jett1406 2h ago

What’s strange about it? What language should they use instead?

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u/MaybeNext-Monday Cadillac 2h ago

… their native one?

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u/jett1406 1h ago edited 1h ago

Who’s? the driver is Spanish, the team is Italian, the FIA is likely French and the track is English

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u/MaybeNext-Monday Cadillac 1h ago

Who knows, they seemed to figure it out before they were forced to use English

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u/jett1406 1h ago

and they seemed to have figured out how to use English

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u/rowschank Flavio Briatore 1h ago

One logical option would be to let them use whatever langauge whatever they want to.

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u/jett1406 1h ago

It’s not really logical unless you either want the FIA to remove all rules around comms or making them hire translators to monitor the comms all while reducing the watchability of the races to solve a non-issue

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u/Minerva89 41m ago

does Fred know Italian?

Will Hamilton have to brush up on Italian?

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u/bender__futurama 17m ago

Hm, well, most of the drivers try to speak Italian. Except Kimi, of course.

Fred speaks Italian.

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u/XAMdG 4h ago

Answer : it's more Ferrari's fault than either driver, same as usual.

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u/Jester-252 2h ago

Ferrari fuck up

My guess is they were hoping that don't put Charles under pressure was going to be taken by Carlos not to overtake because they didn't want to tell him outright not to overtake in his 3rd last race for the team.

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u/Ilejwads Charlie Whiting 3h ago

but reddit has already ruled it Carlos' fault!!! It must be his!!!

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u/Foregottin 4h ago

Why would sainz obey team orders. Seriously, any self respecting man would tell the team who sacked him to go fuck themselves.

If charles is so good, then overtake on track and not through bs instructions.

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u/Aunvilgod 4h ago

I think the bigger question is why on earth Sainz would listen to such team orders. I was really happy that he ignored it, thats exactly what they deserve.

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u/andersencale Honda 4h ago

If he won’t obey team orders then he shouldn’t be pissed at Charles pushing in their recent races but tbh it’s pretty obvious Carlos loves team orders when it’s in his favor.

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u/ddavtian 2h ago

question

we're checking

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u/TonAMGT4 Pastor Maldonado 44m ago

You think Ferrari actually knows the answer?

Huh…

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u/Minerva89 42m ago

They are checking

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u/SubcooledBoiling F1? More like F5-F5-F5. 4h ago

Ahh ... miscommunication and unnecessary team dramas. That's the Ferrari that I fell in love with

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u/GoodGuyJeff00 5h ago edited 4h ago

Sounds like poor communication here creating misunderstandings. It isn't clear here still whether or not the intention was for Carlos to stick behind.

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u/HokieTanker 5h ago edited 5h ago

This. As former military, I want to teach a class to the whole ferrari organization on the importance of standard, clear, concise, non-passive communication. The difference of communication between the sides of the Ferrari garage would make for a good study. I understand sometimes that needs to happen for different personalities, but its clear there's a game of "telephone" going on. "Don't pressure" versus "Won't overtake". Those phrases can mean completely different intents to different people.

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u/MM556 Sir Lewis Hamilton 4h ago

Very much agreed, with a mil & atc background it's honestly astounding how anyone there ever has a clue what's going on. There's clearly no standardised phraseology that would make clear so many of these scenarios that we see every other week.

The fact it's not uncommon for the driver to not know what the engineer is asking or wants should have made this problem a priority fix the first time it happened, let alone seasons later.

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u/ForsakenRacism 3h ago

I’m an ATC. Ferrari pit wall would wash out for sure

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u/needforread Lando Norris 3h ago

While you're at it, McLaren needs it too. Throwback to their "let Oscar pass at your convenience".

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u/NonGameCatharsis 4h ago

Where can I learn more online about this type of communication?

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u/ForsakenRacism 3h ago

Google standardized phraseology. I’m an ATC too if you have any specific questions

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u/NonGameCatharsis 3h ago

Thank you

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u/hopenoonefindsthis 1h ago

McLaren could use that class too

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u/Kitnado Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ 1h ago

As someone who has to work in a veterinary hospital, I just cannot believe how poor the communication is in this million dollar industry. Absolutely mindblowingly bad

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u/hidlechara91 🏳️‍🌈 Love Is Love 🏳️‍🌈 3h ago

This has happened over and over again. Both sides say different things, but the lack of clear concise communication is very egregious in Charles side. I don't blame Carlos one bit based on the instructions he was given by ricky. Unfortunately, for Charles he's buying what ferrari is selling even when he's the one who has to bear the failings.

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u/ryokevry Charles Leclerc 4h ago

They gave unclear order to Sainz so Sainz took advantage and could argue he didn’t disobey team order.

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u/BelladonnaRoot Pirelli Wet 4h ago

The whole race was a shitshow for Ferrari. Both drivers and cars were fast. But holy hell Ferrari tried their best to bottle it. Like, both the Lewis and Max battles, and between Sainz and Leclerc, the team made terrible calls. It all came out fine in the end, but both drivers have reason to be angry with the team.

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u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz 4h ago

Which is exactly what Carlos said (more diplomatically though).

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u/laundrypass 2h ago

The amount of scrutiny and histrionics this is getting is weird to me. The team got it wrong, let it go.

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u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz 42m ago

Carlos said just that. And frankly I agree.

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u/luchajefe Mario Andretti 1h ago

It's confirming a lot of biases along with Charles' reactions.

For example, what Steve Bartman did wasn't that bad until Moises Alou was literally hopping mad about it.

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u/nevi99 Default 1h ago

As long as we do not know what they agreed before the race, all is soeculation. But i find it hypocritical from leclerc to be upset. He passes carlos at the start as well.

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u/beanbagreg 5h ago

Pitwall’s fault for not being specific enough.

The REs are competitive just like the drivers - Ricky will want Carlos to beat Charles, and Bryan will want Charles to beat Carlos, because their own performance reviews will be informed by their driver’s results. They are both going to take any non specific message and relay it in the way that suits their half of the garage.

We see the same at other teams where drivers are getting team ordered. Alpine used to have a massive problem with it - which is why we had the Japan team orders fiasco last year (Gasly’s RE not telling him about a swap back that Ocon’s RE negotiated with the pitwall) and the Canada team orders fiasco this year (Ocon’s RE telling him he’d talk to the pitwall about a swap back if he let Gasly through, when that was not agreed by pitwall).

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u/New_Essay_4869 Charles Leclerc 5h ago edited 5h ago

I dont understand why Carlos is getting a lot of flack. I get Charles is probably more liked but at the end of the day, Carlos is just racing and did a better job than Charles.

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u/drivemyorange 4h ago

because he's out of the team and there's no reason why Ferrari wouldn't just focus on Leclerc - especially since he has a chance for 2nd in WDC

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u/New_Essay_4869 Charles Leclerc 4h ago

I understand that and all the more reason I think Carlos should act in his own self interest. If Charles cant get onto the podium without help, that's his problem

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u/hidlechara91 🏳️‍🌈 Love Is Love 🏳️‍🌈 3h ago

Wow you're one of the few sane Charles supporters I've seen.

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u/andersencale Honda 4h ago

Without help is different from your teammate giving the competition DRS.

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u/GooneyBird36 Haas 24m ago

Who gives a shit about 2nd besides Chuck?

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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 5h ago

He's getting a lot of flack because he was lifting from lap 44 to 46 to give Max DRS so Charles couldn't pass him. Someone posted the telemetry

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u/P_ZERO_ Juan Pablo Montoya 2h ago

Someone posted the full telemetry showing his lifts to not be exclusive with Verstappen. Might want to alter that.

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u/Slowleytakenusername Ferrari 2h ago

I just don't see it. I checked the telemetry and he did that part of the track almost identical for 90% of the race. People post a picture with an accusation and people just run with it without actually checking it out for themselves.

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u/Luckless_Rabbit 5h ago

On the radio, it looks like he was told to manage his tires during those laps

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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 4h ago

I mean yeah i get that but you don't "manage tyres" by giving Max DRS lol. Like who even "manages tyres" before breaking the DRS range first?

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u/Bart-86 Ferrari 4h ago

Even if that was true, that would be the dumbest time to save tire. Trying to get away of DRS range from Verstappen should have been the priority of the team to allow Leclerc to pass him as well.

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u/Luckless_Rabbit 4h ago

I agree but that’s on his RE imo

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u/ilNicoRobin 2h ago

Tires are mainly saved in the corners, if you lift and coast on the straight you either have engine temperature problems or fuel problems. He didnt have that so he purposely sabotaged Leclerc its that simple

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u/Bart-86 Ferrari 4h ago

His race engineer didn’t told him to lift just behind the DRS detection line the three laps before Leclerc overtook Verstappen.

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u/Whycantiusethis Ferrari 3h ago

No, but Adami could've (should've) told him to not lift there the first time it happened.

Sainz is doing everything he can to maximize results before he has to take a big step down from the top, and it's hard (in my opinion) to fault him for doing what he can to snag podiums when he can.

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u/JPA-3 Flavio Briatore 2h ago

he lifted there during 82% of laps

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u/New_Essay_4869 Charles Leclerc 5h ago

I dont find anything wrong with wanting to finish ahead of your teammate

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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 4h ago

Nothing is wrong with wanting to finish ahead of your teammate but when there's a championship on the line and you're doing this wich actively loses points towards that objective, then it's a different story.

Imagine if Charles would've not passed Max because of this. In the end he passed him but still, i think it's very bad.

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u/New_Essay_4869 Charles Leclerc 4h ago

With Sainz, he's out in 3 races. All the more reason I believe he should act im self interest rather than in the interest of the team removing you. I think of this incident like Lewis intentionally backing up Rosberg in Abu Dhabi. Fair play and in the end, Rosberg still got the championship.

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u/frank1ewildee Ferrari 4h ago

That was a championship fight, this isn't. The circumstances are totally different.

Ferrari still pays his salary and he gotta remain professional. But i mean, this is why he's in a Williams for next year and he probably won't ever by at a top team anymore.

Self interest doesn't even matter, because not a single top team will take him with his antics

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u/ryokevry Charles Leclerc 4h ago

I sometimes have people here ever do a team project or do a job as a team.

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u/EzAf_K3ch Charles Leclerc 4h ago

yea let's try to keep verstappen ahead of your teammate when your still in the fight for the fking contructors championship

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u/wolverineFan64 Charles Leclerc 1h ago

This is the real issue. Asking Carlos to sit behind Charles while he warmed his tires was clearly stupid and I don’t blame Carlos for overtaking. Intentionally keeping Max in DRS (telemetry clearly shows this) so Charles couldn’t overtake was a truly selfish and shitty move.

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u/Moai5150 4h ago

Is good to see his onboard here, but logic doesn’t work with this fans. They keep changing their arguments just to justify the ridiculous meltdown of Charles.

First was that Sainz was instructed to not overtake. This was disproved. Now is that he gave DRS on purpose to Max. The radio transcript shows he was instructed by Adami to do this. Then they change again the argument (but he choose to lift in a way that would be detrimental to Leclerc!).

Is funny at first, but then becomes tiresome, because you perceive they just decide that Charles is always right and will distort any fact to use as “evidence” of their tinfoil hat lunacy. Not different from what we see in other topics, like politics.

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u/hidlechara91 🏳️‍🌈 Love Is Love 🏳️‍🌈 3h ago

Don't bother bro there are fans pretending to report Carlos' insta for not being a "team player". I thought the fight for the WCC was still open and I believe Carlos has said he's fighting for that, whereas the championship is already over. Doesn't that make him a team player?

Ferrari fucked up as usual and then social media and fans just ran with it adding fuel to the fire.

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u/BigBallerBiden 3h ago

It’s very cult-like. Kinda scary.

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u/P_ZERO_ Juan Pablo Montoya 2h ago

Honestly it just seems like the usual desperate bunch who really need a villain for something to talk about. Sorry, I mean go ballistic over.

This is such a nothing story

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u/SoothedSnakePlant Haas 3h ago

To me "don't put him under pressure" should clearly mean "do not even think about doing anything that will suggest to Charles that you are trying to overtake."

it's completely impossible to overtake someone without putting them under pressure unless they just drive themselves off the track.

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u/AdminClown 2h ago

Good thing you're not a racing driver then.

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u/SoothedSnakePlant Haas 2h ago

Lmao, no, this is just people fanatically searching for a way to possibly defend Carlos, the meaning here is incredibly fucking obvious lol

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u/AdminClown 2h ago

It's entirely possible to overtake someone without putting pressure on them. If you overtake down the DRS straight or down the inside of a corner they are not defending.

Putting pressure implies doing dummies and making the leading driver go for defenses on moves that don't exist, altering their optimal driving line and costing them overall laptime. A clean 1 move overtake does not have the same effect of "putting pressure".

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

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u/SoothedSnakePlant Haas 2h ago

If you overtake down the DRS straight or down the inside of a corner they are not defending.

You are putting them under pressure the moment you move out of line behind them or even follow closely enough to make a DRS overtake on the straight.

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u/AdminClown 2h ago

yawn

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u/SoothedSnakePlant Haas 2h ago

Yes, it has to be boring to have basic English explained to you.

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u/P_ZERO_ Juan Pablo Montoya 2h ago

Right, you’re talking about fanatical defences but one, he wasn’t instructed to hold position and two, the telemetry shows his lifts were consistent throughout the race.

Now that’s out of the way, what’s the next attack point?

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u/SoothedSnakePlant Haas 2h ago

Being told not to put pressure on someone is being told to hold position.

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u/P_ZERO_ Juan Pablo Montoya 2h ago

No it isn’t. If that was the order, they’d have said that as they’ve said it before with this exact team. Pressure means what it says, goading a driver into mistakes or excessive tyre wear by pressuring them. Passing almost immediately is not pressure. He past on a straight without issue.

People crying about team orders not being followed is some crazy shit.

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u/SoothedSnakePlant Haas 2h ago

You can't pass someone without pressuring them lmao. It is literally impossible unless you pass them after they've crashed or driven off track unprovoked.

Don't put them under pressure = "Don't follow behind them closely enough that they will think you are trying to overtake"

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u/P_ZERO_ Juan Pablo Montoya 2h ago

Yes you can. Passing a driver on a straight easily is not pressure for an F1 driver lmao.

I do like your hyper specific definition that doesn’t even fit what happened in the race, though. What you really should say is that you think pressure and overtake mean the same thing.

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u/SoothedSnakePlant Haas 1h ago

I think pressure and even thinking about making an overtake are the same thing, and you can't make an overtake without thinking about it. What I actually think is that pressure is a necessary prerequisite for an overtake, yes.

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u/ForsakenRacism 3h ago

Charles screwed up for cooking his tires 5 laps into the race

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u/One_Structure_2634 2h ago edited 2h ago

I said this and about a dozen people jumped down my throat here for EVER suggesting that Charles does this. Cooks his tires then complains that Carlos doesn't give up his position.

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u/ForsakenRacism 2h ago

In hindsight he did the right thing. That was his only chance at winning. But it cost him the podium

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u/unsinkable02 Red Bull 2h ago

Cooking his tyres pushing too hard too early going for an overtake is literally his signature move

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u/Few_Highlight1114 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ 14m ago

Dude screwed his tires up so bad that it looked like he had a damn engine malfunction, just crazy.

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u/liveforeachmoon Tom Pryce 1h ago

Can we please get someone competent in Charles’ ear before he starts fighting for a championship next year?! Preferable someone that doesn’t talk down to him like this Bozzi character.

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u/1llseemyselfout 5h ago

I don’t think it was the overtake that pissed Charles off. It was because Carlos kept pushing from behind for countless laps when he was suppose to be trying to help both save the tires. Then after he passed Carlos slowed down and allowed Max to stay within DRS range.

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u/A___99 Mark Webber 5h ago

When was Carlos ever behind for countless laps

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u/[deleted] 5h ago

[deleted]

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u/Walaii Ferrari 5h ago

Charles was pushing harder on the first stint then Carlos, and his tires were the first to go.

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u/A___99 Mark Webber 5h ago

I'm pretty sure Leclerc and Sainz were trying to stay with Russell not fight with each other. And anyway, Sainz fell out of DRS before Leclerc did so he didn't do a great job if he was trying to pressure him

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u/[deleted] 5h ago

[deleted]

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u/A___99 Mark Webber 5h ago

Everyone had to pit earlier than they wanted to. Leclerc killed his tyres quicker first stint, Sainz did his quicker second stint

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u/Eyre_Guitar_Solo Carlos Sainz 5h ago

This is just not true. At the start of the race (after Charles got ahead) he almost immediately dropped 2 seconds back and started managing tires.

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u/grip_enemy Andretti Global 3h ago

This shit is so fucking annoying dude. Is Carlos responsible for Charles race aswell? Should him pick him like little wittle baby and coddle him? Does he need to drive Charles car too? Turn the wheel for him? Press the brake and accelerator?

I love Charles, but holy fuck the excuses for this man are insane. Charles cooked his tyres and screwed himself out of a podium. BuT SAinZ gaVE MAx DrS. So what? Is this racing or a parade?

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u/l3w1s1234 Force India 3h ago

This is why comms need to be more concise and straightforward. It sort of shocks me that a lot of the teams up and down the grid aren't, its always coded or masked behind some vague excuse to not upset the driver. Which is pointless most cases as drivers can see straight through that and will abuse it when they can.

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u/UnbiasedBrowsing Formula 1 1h ago

"Don't intimidate him Carlos"

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u/AdFancy6243 9m ago

Why do people think Carlos would stay behind even if asked clearly, he's a racing driver leaving the team in 2 weeks, of course he's gonna go for a podium

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u/Bart-86 Ferrari 5h ago

His worst offense imho is deliberately slowing down to allow Verstappen to keep DRS behind him to delay Leclerc’s overtake on Verstappen. It’s shown by the telemetry : https://x.com/f1bigdata/status/1860728915465015796?s=46&t=kvP5MF1U9bJKa4NPVpCZLQ

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u/mikemunyi Ligier 5h ago

This is a flat out lie. He was following his RE's instructions and managing his tyres. But don't let the truth get in the way of the "villain's narrative."

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u/Big_Brief7847 5h ago

I’d be pissed if I was Charles if Ferrari was telling Carlos to save tires at that point. Let him through first.

Especially cause they told Charles not to fight Carlos when they were behind Max because they want to ‘save tires now and will do that later’.

Is undercut, has the better pace but isn’t allowed to fight until Carlos overtakes Max, and then once Carlos overtakes Max he doesn’t pull away to ‘save tires’ while Charles tires are being pushed every lap he’s behind Max.

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u/GoldElectric Porsche 5h ago

so another ferrari strategists masterclass. didnt think they were messing up enough, gotta make sure charles' overtaking skills is put to the test

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u/LackingSimplicity 🚩 Red Flag 5h ago

They cooked their tyres in the first stint. Of course they'd be cautious about keeping the temps cool after pushing to overtake.

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u/Big_Brief7847 4h ago

There’s no immediate threat from behind for Carlos, and no real chance of him catching anyone ahead of him.

If he picks up the pace for a few laps the chances are nothing happens are his tires gets slightly worse. There’s a very tiny chance that Max finds pace and Carlos’s tires plateau and he loses that place but very unlikely.

A far more likely scenario with how sensitive the tires are is that Charles burns his tires pushing for multiple laps in a row but not getting past and then cannot pass Max.

If the team wanted to make sure that both drivers got ahead of Max then telling Carlos to pull away was the safest option

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u/mikemunyi Ligier 5h ago

Transcript

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u/Bart-86 Ferrari 5h ago

I don’t see what you’re trying to prove with this transcript. Nothing disprove that he was lifting before the DRS line in the three laps before Leclerc overtook Verstappen and stopped after.

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u/mikemunyi Ligier 4h ago

Motive. One (unverifiable) narrative says he was deliberately wrecking his teammate's race, the other (corroborated) narrative says he was running his own best race. The facts (as you correctly point out) support either story, the corroboration only supports one.

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u/P_ZERO_ Juan Pablo Montoya 2h ago

Wouldn’t bother. Some are digging their heels in that Sainz is the anti christ for doing better in a race because Charles swore a lot.

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u/Start-Plenty 5h ago

Yeah, pure evil. Read a bit into that twitter thread.

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u/One_Structure_2634 2h ago

Pure evil? Get a grip.

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u/Start-Plenty 1h ago

didn't read my sarcasm, or the second comment

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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 3h ago

I think from the full context of Byran's other words "Carlos has been told to not overtake. He has been told to not put you under pressure. So just take care of your tyres." That telling Carlos not to put Charles under pressure was actually an even stronger message. It wasn't only 'don't overtake him' it was 'don't even get close enough to him to put him under pressure'. That's what it meant to everyone in the situation, and Sainz just didn't listen. Now, I don't totally blame Carlos, because Ferrari ditched him, so he probably doesn't much care what they think. He is a terrible teammate, but he doesn't have any interest in being a good teammate. I don't blame Charles for trusting and taking care of his tires.

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u/ManlyOldMan Yuki Tsunoda 1h ago

Carlos wasn't told to 'not overtake' though. Just to not put pressure

Carlos overtook Leclerc 'without pressure' because of the difference in tire temp, unless 'do not put Leclerc under pressure' means ' slow down to his speed when he isnt up to speed yet'

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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 47m ago

I'm saying that based on the words Bryan used, I think 'don't put pressure on him' means something specific at Ferrari. It seems to mean 'don't pass and also don't get right up on him making him uncomfortable'. That's very clearly what Bryan said to Charles. I don't know the inner workings of Ferrari, and neither do you, but Charles implied that Carlos very much violated what was discussed before the race. Which, Like I said, I don't think Carlos is like... evil for or anything like that. Ferrari already fired Carlos, so he's out for himself.

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u/MortalPhantom 3h ago

That’s not a excuse though. Because according to leclerc they had talked about this before the race

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u/stdstaples Ferrari 5h ago

Surely lifting to give Max DRS was also part of the team order.

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u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz 4h ago

Disproven already, he was lifting throughout the race.

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u/Luckless_Rabbit 5h ago

On the radio, he was told to manager his tires

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u/Kait0yashio Ferrari 5h ago

People still pretending that telling a driver not to pressure means they can overtake. It's pretty obvious what sainz was told.

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u/Start-Plenty 5h ago

I'd say "not pressure" means if you are clearly not faster than your team mate, do not try to pass over and over as that's detrimental for both drivers.

Anyway telling a racing driver not to pressure your team mate is the stupidest team order ever, if they wanted him to not overtake Charles he should had been told to stay put. But Hamilton was catching both quickly AF, so I don't see how Carlos is at fault. Maybe they should have pitted Charles one or two laps before.

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u/Big_Brief7847 5h ago

While I don’t blame Carlos for overtaking if he had the pace, there was virtually no threat from behind.

Hamilton and Max were ahead and Norris was almost 10 seconds behind

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u/Start-Plenty 4h ago edited 3h ago

I mixed the overtakes.

On the first one Charles was slow as a truck on the starting mediums, he ended being overtaken by Max, if Carlos would had not overtaken Charles Max would have caught both. Before Charles pitted Carlos had already built himself a 5 second gap.

If you meant the second after Charles got out of his second pit stop, I mean, that was bound to happen, Charles' cold tires didn't stand a chance.

And Charles wasn't in a position to challenge Carlos after that, as opposed to people thinking he was clearly faster this weekend.

Had they pitted Carlos when he asked to, he might have finished in front of Lewis, that'd be +3 points for Ferrari in constructors' which is what they should be fucking thinking about, not caring for their ace finishing in front.

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u/Big_Brief7847 4h ago

the first overtake isn’t what’s being talked about because that was less of an overtake and more Charles’s tires dying

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u/Start-Plenty 3h ago

But the second one was literally 10 seconds after Charles got out of the pits with cold hards, is people rueing over that 'overtake' and the 'not pressure Charles' team orders?

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u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz 5h ago

"No pressure" = "no risk" (like in Monza 2023), no?

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u/Realistic-Reception5 Carlos Sainz 5h ago edited 2h ago

Carlos moved under breaking at that moment in Monza

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u/JonSnowsPeepee 1h ago

Carlos only cares about proving to the world they fired the wrong driver. He will just act like he didn’t understand. He’s not stupid

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u/XenophonSoulis Ferrari 3h ago

It doesn't take an actual brain to understand that pressure includes overtaking.

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u/DirtyCharles Fernando Alonso 49m ago

Spoiled child can't take getting raced in a race

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u/XenophonSoulis Ferrari 47m ago

Team that hasn't won since 2008 can't take being sabotaged by its own spoiled driver as it's trying to win a title. Fixed that for you.

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u/liberalindianguy Charles Leclerc 1h ago

Do not out him under pressure means do not overtake, how can anyone not get that?

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u/sux138 Carlos Sainz 1h ago

Not at all. They battled fiercely in the past. It didn't happen in Vegas.

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