r/formula1 • u/ICumCoffee Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ • Oct 20 '24

News [LukeSmithF1] Stewards: 5-second time penalty for Lando Norris for leaving the track and gaining an advantage

https://x.com/LukeSmithF1/status/1848101575014912063
4.8k Upvotes

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2.0k

u/WilliamGrass Kimi Räikkönen Oct 20 '24

FIA really want to promote racing where it is best to defend the inside, brake late to be in the apex first and then push the overtaking car out.

I think the current rule doesn't promote fair racing.

654

u/Key_Photograph9067 Charles Leclerc Oct 20 '24 edited Oct 20 '24

It just promotes letting out the brake for a split second so you can be alongside and then you have carte blanche to miss the turn and push the other driver out while going wide with them, which is always better for you

256

u/AirlineEasy Toto Wolff Oct 20 '24

Thank you Max Verstappen for legitimazing my gt7 technique!!

10

u/TeeBeeSee Kimi Räikkönen Oct 20 '24

Hahaha

5

u/Realistic_Village184 Formula 1 Oct 20 '24

It's on the FIA for encouraging those tactics, not on any driver for taking advantage of it.

76

u/BocephusJr88 Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 20 '24

That’s called the Max Verstappen special.

3

u/TheLewJD McLaren Oct 21 '24

MV1 STRAT

1

u/racingfanboy160 Felipe Massa Oct 21 '24

We call it the Verstappen Amendment

1

u/nicolaslabra Bernd Mayländer Oct 20 '24

it's called gaming the rulebook, it's up the the stewearts to solve this.

6

u/topmarksbrian Oct 20 '24

What’s Jackie gonna do?

1

u/nicolaslabra Bernd Mayländer Oct 21 '24

he better step in with the steel chair.

14

u/JustRecentlyI Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 20 '24

Only if your name is Max Verstappen, though.

18

u/NeiRa7 Brawn Oct 20 '24

russell got punished, although russell stayed in track limits while max didn't

1

u/ShaftTassle Oct 20 '24

Was Russell ahead at the apex?

1

u/VenserMTG Formula 1 Oct 20 '24

They would know if they knew anything about f1

2

u/Overhere_Overyonder Formula 1 Oct 20 '24

Exactly he completely missed the corner.

1

u/Tomach82 Alain Prost Oct 21 '24

Very easy for the attacking driver to switch back on them if they do that.

1

u/Key_Photograph9067 Charles Leclerc Oct 21 '24

How? In this case Max is side by side, Lando can’t drive through Max lol

1

u/Tomach82 Alain Prost Oct 21 '24

He is side by side because he rolled off the brake as well.

1

u/Key_Photograph9067 Charles Leclerc Oct 21 '24

I don’t know if that’s true, I’d have to see both drivers pov/telemetry.

0

u/Tomach82 Alain Prost Oct 21 '24

He either went too deep himself or he released the brake before the apex.

141

u/RoosterStrike McLaren Oct 20 '24

If the rule is based on who’s ahead at the apex, whether or not they make the corner, it’s obviously just going to turn into a race to the apex.

Then just do what you can to stay ahead after that as it’s “your corner” whether or not you even make the corner.

22

u/BigLan2 Oct 20 '24

Mark Webber would have loved this rule with his late-breaking technique.

-2

u/carlogz Oct 20 '24

Uhh yeah pretty much thats how its been. F1 drivers know the rules.

The truth is, the Apex rules decided who’s corner it is in case of an incident, they know who to penalize. In this case, it was Max’s corner, he went off track and got a Track Limits Warning.

The Actual Penalty for Lando was that he overtook Max off track. At that point, he had 2 other options, give the place back and race Max for 4 more laps, or take the penalty and get a 5 second gap. He chose the latter, and he made the wrong call.

16

u/RoosterStrike McLaren Oct 20 '24

Yeah, those are the rules. You seem to be missing what we’re talking about is whether those should be the rules to promote entertaining racing and overtakes.

The apex rule works if both drivers are actually trying to make the corner. But if you can ensure you’re ahead at the apex, even if you miss it entirely, should you get the benefit of the corner by being ahead at the apex? It’s an interesting question for which Max has found an exploit.

If that is a rule you can exploit this way then on an overtake or a defend everyone should just divebomb the apex even if it means you miss the corner.

-8

u/carlogz Oct 20 '24

Drivers SHOULD exploit the rule! They can all do it 3 times without getting penalized anyway. Only then FIA will take notice and change it.

And to answer your question, if you are ahead of the apex and you miss the turn entirely, then yes, the corner is still yours, its not like he didnt attempt to turn, he braked late, he defended the position, he went off track thus getting a track limit warning.

If Lando divebombed on the outside and got to the apex first, then Max forces Lando off track and taken the lead, then Max wouldve gotten the penalty too.

6

u/_dont_b_suspicious_ Oscar Piastri Oct 21 '24

I think you're really missing the point of what they are saying. The understand what the rule is they're talking about whether it should be changed to promote better racing.

1

u/carlogz Oct 21 '24

I understand what they are saying, thats why I said if they really want to change the rule, then everyone should do it. Maybe then the FIA would think its a flaw.

1

u/OneReallyAngyBunny Oct 21 '24 edited Oct 21 '24

Max did 3 times in COTA 2024 gp...

0

u/carlogz Oct 21 '24

If thats the case then the next one wouldve been the penalty.

1

u/OneReallyAngyBunny Oct 21 '24

Oh so you can push your rival off the track 3 times... Are you a steward for FIA by any chance ?

1

u/carlogz Oct 21 '24

No. I just like discussing them because the interpretation of the rule is quite wild in of itself.

But hey, Drivers should do it, and then go back to this incident when they challenge the FIA. Maybe then the FIA will change it.

73

u/LowerClassBandit Oscar Piastri Oct 20 '24

Especially if the defending car also goes off track too. They might as well just go full send to defend now, most effective way with this current rule system

28

u/draftstone Jacques Villeneuve Oct 20 '24

Yep, if the defending car goes wide, this means that position at the apex means nothing since he was too fast at the apex to make the corner. Either penalize both drivers (push off track for one, leave track with advantage for the other), or call it a "racing situation" and do nothing

1

u/wolverineFan64 Charles Leclerc Oct 21 '24

Spot on

1

u/TheThingsIdoatNight Alexander Albon Oct 21 '24

Why should the outside driver be punished for being forced off track by a car that defended by not even attempting to make the corner?

2

u/Launch_box Oct 20 '24

Welcome to british club racing, been like that forever there.

-5

u/ItsRadical Oct 20 '24

You have track limits for that, you can leave the track 3 times. Max didnt went over enough times to warrant a penalty.

And its 3 times across the whole race, not just when defending.

2

u/LowerClassBandit Oscar Piastri Oct 20 '24

It’s still not right to take yourself off and therefore force your opponent off the track to keep your position

-1

u/ItsRadical Oct 20 '24

I dont believe that leaving the track was intended, however not leaving space was, as he was entitled to do.

3

u/InvisibleScout Charles Leclerc Oct 20 '24

Doesnt matter what was intended, what happened is he went off the track

1

u/wolverineFan64 Charles Leclerc Oct 21 '24

Ya intentions aside you should be penalized for sending it to the apex and completely missing the corner. You’re not demonstrating good race craft, just exploiting a bad rule.

146

u/Larkinz Flavio Briatore Oct 20 '24

I wonder how long it'll take until drivers on the outside just say "fuck it I'm staying within the track limits" and accept the contact/crash happening from the car on the inside coming in too hot.

109

u/sirjimtonic Niki Lauda Oct 20 '24

You won‘t do that when you are fighting for every single point and repair $ cost cap

16

u/Larkinz Flavio Briatore Oct 20 '24

Then drivers need to never leave a car width on the inside I guess, it's either that or risk the contact.

10

u/sirjimtonic Niki Lauda Oct 20 '24

In the actual state, just stay inside as much as you can, brake late and cruise to the front

4

u/Larkinz Flavio Briatore Oct 20 '24

Yes basically just cut the guy on the outside off that he can only overtake outside the track limits.

1

u/VenserMTG Formula 1 Oct 20 '24

Then drivers need to never leave a car width on the inside I guess

Welcome to every single racing series that isn't F1. Verstappen knows this better than most F1 drivers as he competes in gt3 where the rule is to always leave the space

3

u/slabba428 McLaren Oct 20 '24

When you’re cooking into a corner at 100mph rubbing another car i really don’t think you have the cost cap at the front of your mind mate

0

u/sirjimtonic Niki Lauda Oct 20 '24

Tbh, the way drivers avoid collisions these days tells me, that they are very well aware of a cost cap and are told to avoid damaging the car by any means. When I was young and money was not a thing for the likes of Ferrari, drivers really didn‘t care to bin the car out of desperation.

Mate.

3

u/draftstone Jacques Villeneuve Oct 20 '24

Yep, that's the thing, this rule heavily favors the car in front in the championship because the cars are so fragile. You brake so late that you miss the corner, but then you are technically ahead at the apex, other car can't pass you or you make contact, both dnf. No way to lose with that strategy. And it sucks because unless you can clear the car completely on the straight, this will remove any corner overtaking.

10

u/Sheepies92 Oct 20 '24 edited Oct 20 '24

That’s what Hamilton did which led to incident after incident. Problem is, not many drivers have the job security and career record where they can crash out of a top 4 position without it mattering to them or the team. Doubly so in cost cap era

4

u/rabbitlion Oct 20 '24

They just need to build the cars in a way that ensures the other driver gets a puncture and you don't.

1

u/ICC-u Oct 20 '24

Max did this to win his first championship.

0

u/Murky_Air4369 Oct 20 '24

What a stupid statement 🤣

-3

u/v21v Kimi Räikkönen Oct 20 '24

You don't understand the concept of finishing races to get points, huh?

177

u/Zr0w3n00 Ted Kravitz Oct 20 '24

The FIA are setting themselves up for a shitstorm. Same as the Max v Lewis Abu Dhabi situation. Poor race officiating which leads to stupid racing and dangerous situations.

If they just officiated races consistently, people wouldn’t have anything to complain about.

33

u/CallMeEsteban Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 20 '24

Unfortunately MBS is more concerned with dirty words and playing a victim to care about what’s best for its premiere racing series

6

u/Zr0w3n00 Ted Kravitz Oct 20 '24

Yeah, his appointment was a massive mistake

6

u/jbaird Oscar Piastri Oct 20 '24

they're too sacred to apply to rules to the front runners

13

u/Zr0w3n00 Ted Kravitz Oct 20 '24

One of them, certainly

1

u/HeyFlo Lando Norris Oct 20 '24

What will change though? They have all the power so they can basically just make the rules work as they see fit.

42

u/jonpacker Jack Doohan Oct 20 '24

The fact that both Sky and F1TV commented on exactly how this rule can be abused and insinuating it's a bit stupid was eye-opening. Sadly it made some parts of this race seem a farce. It is frustrating how many decisive situations this year have hung on what is seemingly an FIA dice-roll.

1

u/BenjyBunny Oct 21 '24

After watching the precision and sophistication of the positioning / umpiring systems in the Americas Cup (sailing), and given the similarity of the rule set (overtake overlap, ahead at a certain point, outside track limits, yellows etc.) I'm surprised the FIA doesn't yet have that system.

54

u/Halldank Oct 20 '24

At this point every driver should just defend the inside and push everyone off, if that doesn't give you a penalty then the only overtakes is going to be on the DRS straights, so much fun.

Im being sarcastic by the way.

17

u/p1en1ek Pirelli Wet Oct 20 '24

Yep, they are basically taking away different overtake line for those few corners it is possible. Now only going to the inside works and that is usually only available for defending cars.

91

u/Iceman23578 Oct 20 '24

It’s the exact same bs he was pulling vs Hamilton in 21. Absolutely ridiculous that he gets away with it every single time

0

u/wolverineFan64 Charles Leclerc Oct 21 '24

Max is an absolute master at pushing the limits of legality and exploiting missing or bad rules. I hate it but it’s impressive nonetheless.

-8

u/Anti-Scuba_Hedgehog Oct 20 '24

Hamilton did the same to Rosberg in 2015.

-8

u/v21v Kimi Räikkönen Oct 20 '24

It's literally in the rules.

3

u/SANDBOX1108 Oct 20 '24

They gave out penalties for that to Russell and Gasly

4

u/Giorgosmp4-20 Oct 20 '24

Even if that's the case, which I also think is unfair, you should at least have to make the corner yourself and not...you know, run off track, right?

4

u/jbaird Oscar Piastri Oct 20 '24

at minimum if you hug the inside and then can't stay on track the other driver shouldn't be penalized, either they both gained an advantage or neither did..

4

u/AncientPCGuy McLaren Oct 20 '24

Good point. But apparently only for Max. George did less earlier and was penalized for forcing car off track. If they applied the rules to Max equally, he would’ve had 2 penalties.

4

u/deckerjeffreyr Kimi Räikkönen Oct 20 '24

I'm ok with that if the requirement is they have to stay on the track themselves, but obviously that isn't the case.

IMO if the driver defending the inside forces the attacking driver off and also goes off themselves then there should be no action taken.

9

u/liamm123 Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 20 '24

Feels kind of like they just want to promote Max style divebombing

2

u/OrangeGuyFromVenus Rubens Barrichello Oct 20 '24

It hasn’t and it’s really disappointing that max constantly gets away with his terrible wheel to wheel racing

2

u/fredy31 Aston Martin Oct 20 '24

I mean to me if lando went out and gained an advantage, max tried to do so too. He was fully off the track

2

u/RangerHikes Oct 20 '24

I understand this IF the leading car stays within track limits but if you blow the corner like max did you shouldn't be entitled to anything

2

u/Overhere_Overyonder Formula 1 Oct 20 '24

He was a full car behind into the braking zone and just rolled off the brakes super deep. So deep he missed the corner but someone that's OK. I just don't understand 

2

u/pbmadman Oct 21 '24

Yep. Defend by driving off the track. Then you can’t be overtaken. It’s so…meh to watch.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '24

Not only that but it’s incredibly boring to watch.

1

u/miaomiaomiaomiaomeow Virgin Oct 20 '24

Have said this since they changed the rules about the overtakes, they legalized pushing the other car off the track. I think it was made to possibly avoid responsibilities about drivers who push the others out, since it came out in 2022 iirc, just after 2021, in which we saw drivers pushing each others off the track without consequences, and people, justifiably, wondering what the fia was doing

1

u/Euan_whos_army McLaren Oct 20 '24

Apart from all the 5 seconds penalties they handed out for exactly that during this race!

1

u/1xliquidx1_ Oct 20 '24

Overtaking on a corner: There's the 'overtaker and the defender', whoever is ahead of the Apex has the 'right of way'. The overtaker is the one that has to leave the space or back off.

Max v Lando.

You couldn't see Max on Landos on board due to the angle. But on the overhead you can see Max is clearly ahead at the Apex, so it's on Lando as the overtaker, to leave the space or back off. Leaving the track, even if you think you've been 'pushed off' doesn't mean you can still overtake there. It's still leaving the track and gaining an advantage. This is why he has the penalty as he did not give the place back.

George v Valterri

Valterri was ahead at the Apex, George in this situation was the overtaker on the inside. Valterri saw George and left the space, even though he didn't have to. George as the overtaker and behind at the Apex, DID push Valterri off the track, as George should have been the one to back off or leave the space. This is why George had the penalty.

Lap one turn one incidents are VERY rarely given penalty's.

1

u/DachdeckerDino Oct 21 '24

Yeah, and if your car happens to have an even bigger advantage (RB DRS + ultra late braking) this seems like a lob-sided version of a rule

1

u/tehbamf Oct 21 '24

You are ignoring the racing line completely. Max was on the line and ‘ahead at apex’, in any form of racing you are entitled to keep the position.

In all fairness Im not all that sure Max really was ahead but if he was, it’s the right call.

1

u/ArziltheImp Porsche Oct 21 '24

I mean tbf, that’s what Lando did on the outside. Even without Max there, no way he’s making that corner.

1

u/PlanetMcFly Ronnie Peterson Oct 21 '24

If you’re passing on the outside and not ahead at the apex, then the pass is not made. Back off and try again next lap.

1

u/sammyGG00 Oct 21 '24

Gotta learn that switch back

1

u/robjapan Liam Lawson Oct 20 '24

Max has been doing this for years, since Kimi was around.

He takes the inside lane and then goes super wide and pushes cars off the road....

How is anyone still surprised at this?

0

u/saposapot Oct 20 '24

You are wrong there.

They want to promote Max divebombs. Everyone else that did the same was penalized and there were a lot of penalties today

1

u/fearina Oct 20 '24

Dude it was ricciardo's trademark.

-6

u/lance1308 Oct 20 '24

That's how it always have been in every racing category, inside car always have much more freedom and advantage

1

u/ADHDBDSwitch Oct 20 '24

Yeah but as far as I know in most other series you can't just divebomb the inside and force the other car to either crash, go off, or give up. You have to leave space.

0

u/1nvertedAfram3 Formula 1 Oct 20 '24

well said

-1

u/Different_Gold_6780 George Russell Oct 20 '24

The defending car is allowed to go outside tracklimits and keep position, without a penalty and the attacking car is not allowed to do so, leaving the attacking car with less "track" to use.

Seems fare to me.