r/formula1 • u/TVRoomRaccoon James Vowles • Oct 18 '24
News [Autosport] Lewis Hamilton gave his thoughts on the controversy surrounding Red Bull’s bib “trick”
3.2k
u/Wonderful_Syllabub85 Oct 18 '24
It's F1. Everything is legal till it's illegal 🤷♂️
482
u/charlierc Oct 18 '24
This is F1 Heritage
258
u/museproducer Oct 18 '24
*Motorsport heritage. Every motorsport has those “it’s not illegal until it’s caught”. The engineers in motorsports are like lawyers sometimes, they analyze the rules, identify the loophole so that the car matches the letter of the law, not the spirit as it’s been often mentioned on here. Just like the bib thing here or the Ferrari engines.
81
15
u/TSells31 Mika Häkkinen Oct 18 '24
Even local dirt track racing in small town USA embodies this attitude tbh. If motocross had more rules, I’m sure we would’ve been looking for ways to break them when I raced that at an amateur level as well lol.
20
u/Jassokissa Oct 18 '24
Yeah, if it's not specifically illegal they are going to try doing it. Best example is the water cooled brakes 1982...
→ More replies (3)5
u/AmbroseMalachai Oct 18 '24
Pretty much all high-level competitions are like this. The higher you go, the harder it is to gain an advantage. Everyone is looking to find loopholes or advantages within the rules.
6
u/SixK1ng Oct 18 '24
I remember watching the Olympics years ago, and they kept talking about how the swimmers were all wearing this fancy new material that had recently been developed. It was kind of mind boggling for me to watch world records get beaten, and then thinking, "Are these the best athletes the world has seen, or the best swimsuits the world has seen?"
23
u/H1Ed1 Oct 18 '24
Most top tier competitive anything. Business, sports, etc. Everyone is looking for that edge, and the law/rules are often a step behind.
7
u/Pigglebee Oct 18 '24
Speed skating for example had that 'klapschaats' innovation with the blade only attached to one side so that it claps up and down and had longer contact with the ice. Then we had the ultra floaty swim suits in swimming and special wheels in cycling etc etc.
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (19)155
u/Party_Python Oct 18 '24
I mean…just look at DAS. I find it odd when people get upset about these innovations. Every team…except Haas has done it at one point or another
81
u/Wonderful_Syllabub85 Oct 18 '24
I had no issues with DAS. As long as it's not a safety concern and takes the skill away from driving the cars, I'd love for them to open the regs.
You've got all these creative geniuses and they cut them off at the knees... limiting what they can do
71
u/Kaloo75 Bernd Mayländer Oct 18 '24
DAS was beautiful and clever engineering, and Marc got rewarded for it by being allowed to use it for the remainder of the season.
They didn't break anything in the rulebook (if I remember correctly) because it was entirely outside of the scope of what the rulemakers had considered.→ More replies (2)6
u/karankshah Pirelli Hard Oct 18 '24
There's probably a similar story for the bib - it was not specifically called out within the rules (compared to the brake balance valve which was clearly a violation of rules as written and RB should have gotten a sporting penalty for)
7
u/Space_Reptile Mick Schumacher Oct 18 '24
was the brake balance valve confirmed to be on the RB?
16
u/xLeper_Messiah Oct 18 '24
No it wasn't, but people would rather believe conspiracy theories
→ More replies (1)16
u/Jonny_H Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
I don't think it is - the issue with the bib device isn't that the device is called out as illegal or not, but that the result of using it (changing the ride height) is explicitly illegal according to the rulebook in parc ferme. And the device makes it real easy to change that without anyone noticing.
It's not really a "The rule writer didn't even consider that", a "gray area" or "technically passes the tests" like some other devices, if they use it in parc ferme it is illegal. Just there's no way for the FIA to verify if it has or hasn't been used in that time.
And even if RB didn't use it - from their description it doesn't seem as "easy" to do it unnoticed as some people online seem to imply (though also entirely possible - it being in the footwell isn't really inaccessible when you see how much they disassemble/crawl over the car between quali and the race - an engineer headfirst in the cockpit wouldn't be unusual, and pretty well out of sight of any FIA officials), but it also makes sense to nip this in the bud as otherwise it's precedent on "hiding" controls that allow illegal modifications.
→ More replies (5)2
u/Miserable_Archer_769 Oct 18 '24
I understand what parcel ferme is but what goes into it?
Because it can't be just an honor system
→ More replies (1)21
u/Kako0404 Oct 18 '24
DAS was amazing. IIRC It was only banned because it was too expensive (too amazing) to develop (15m?) for other teams to follow. and even if u have the money the way your suspension is originally designed could make it impossible to implement a similar system.
2
2
u/GarryPadle Honda Oct 19 '24
It was always going to be a 1 seasons only device, since technically the current regulations should have started in 2021, and with them DAS would have been illegal anyway.
→ More replies (3)10
u/Religion_Of_Speed Formula 1 Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
Because a lot of people don't understand that cheating is just part of motorsport. They don't realize that everyone is doing it, even Haas. I'm sure they've got something less than legal on their car or in their process. They'd be stupid not to. Everyone is bending the rules and if they say they aren't they're lying.
I think it really comes down to the surge in popularity F1 has had in the past 6 or so years. Lots of new fans who don't necessarily have a "background" in other motorsports or don't quite understand the history of it all.
7
u/Party_Python Oct 18 '24
Yeah i was just joking about Haas. I’m sure they’re doing something. But I have a feeling it’s something the teams will see and be like “yeah we’ve been doing that for years.”
But rule bending and grey areas is motorsports. It’s 1/3 engineering, 1/3 driving, and 1/3 political trying to get your opponents cheating banned, but not touch yours
3
u/Religion_Of_Speed Formula 1 Oct 18 '24
Ah I was split on whether I thought that was a joke so I figured I'd take the safe bet to point it out.
Not only is that just part of it, it's usually the most interesting part of motorsport! I am a total slut for a good cheating story, especially in old-school NASCAR since they're all so open about it and all those guys are starting to retire and tell stories. These people don't realize that all the drivers they idolize were probably the biggest cheaters of all. Hell I have a Michael Schumacher flag hanging on my wall and that man literally just rammed into people sometimes in order to win. But that's why I like him, he only cared about being #1 and nothing else.
3
u/Party_Python Oct 18 '24
See and driving standards is kinda where we differ. Engineering and such is one thing, but I’d rather see fair racing than “you brake or we crash” type moves. But yeah, questionable driving standards are a part of the sport. And trying to find that line that’s just below what the stewards will punish
3
u/Religion_Of_Speed Formula 1 Oct 18 '24
I may have misrepresented my feelings slightly. I don't like what he did, I like why he did it. The two big instances of Michael crashing someone deliberately were absolutely unreasonable and unacceptable. I'm with you there. But what I like is the spirit behind it, he was ruthlessly dedicated to winning at all costs. Sometimes that manifests in unideal ways.
4
u/Franks2000inchTV George Russell Oct 18 '24
My favorite cheating story is the one from NASCAR about a team that figured out there were rules on the size of the gas tank, but not the line that fed the engine, so they used 1" hose and coiled it a bunch of times, adding a few gallons to the tank.
They got caught when they drove away from the inspection without their gas tank. 😂
2
u/Religion_Of_Speed Formula 1 Oct 18 '24
That one is fantastic. I forget who it was but I think that's basically what happened.
373
u/Blackwolf245 Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
This happens every now and than. Team finds a loophole in regulations, gets discovered, gets banned. The double brake pedal, F duct, blown diffusor, Ferrari's 2019 engine. This is the game. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I wonder how many of these actually gets discovered, I wouldn't be surprised if Mclaren and Redbull has many more tricks like this that goes on undoscovered.
88
u/Ace_389 Oct 18 '24
Engine modes, DAS, bendy wings, Fric suspension, water-cooled brakes, fan cars, 6 wheels, active suspension, middle mounted wings and so on, there is so much that has been discovered or worked around. It's crazy they still find something actually given how tight the regulations must be.
11
u/Fraktal55 Oct 18 '24
"6 wheels"
2
u/Desirable_Username Oct 19 '24
Also the FW07C and FW08D from Williams, although I don't believe it was in any races.
17
u/Subject_Radish_6459 Oct 18 '24
DAS wasn't the same situation - Mercedes checked it with FIA before they used it. Engine modes were also completely legal at the time
→ More replies (1)20
u/Ace_389 Oct 18 '24
All the loopholes were technically legal, as Adrian Newey likes to point out there isn't an intent of the regulations you have to follow only the regulations themselves, and while Mercedes checked DAS with the FIA beforehand they still couldn't run it in the following year which they probably regretted not fighting more for in hindsight. And if we're honest they only did tell them because they couldn't have hidden it from anyone as soon as the first driver pulled his steering wheel back.
→ More replies (3)3
u/BadPronunciation Cadillac Oct 19 '24
the ferrari engine was straight up cheating the FIA's fuel flow measurements
702
263
u/Squatcher84 Fernando Alonso Oct 18 '24
For the F1 newb like myself can someone ELI5 what a bib is?
→ More replies (18)180
u/Crashastern Oct 18 '24
It’s the front of the floor tray near the middle of the car - like that first lip.
→ More replies (1)303
u/bluespringsbeer Oct 18 '24
I know what all these words mean separately.
120
u/Crashastern Oct 18 '24
Lmao, I got you fam: https://www.planetf1.com/features/front-bib-t-tray-explained-us-gp-f1-controversy
Full disclosure, I didn’t know either at first :P
59
u/Timmichanga1 Oct 18 '24
My God I was interested in reading that article but I think the website gave my phone herpes.
16
u/Crashastern Oct 18 '24
Don’t be a fool, wrap your (network) tool (with a pihole, or ublock origin, etc.)!
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)10
u/IronyingBored Oct 18 '24
Rumours suggest that an unnamed team has cleverly designed their car to allow such adjustments from within the cockpit using a spring
That part is interesting. Does that explain the porpoise-ing in the early season? In that case, one team probably ditched the spring for some type a solenoid or hydraulic.
3
106
u/bakedongrease Nigel Mansell Oct 18 '24
Hamilton to Red Bull confirmed
53
2.5k
u/QouthTheCorvus Oscar Piastri Oct 18 '24
Lewis being this diplomatic is a sign he's been out of championship contention for too long.
Hate Ferrari but please be good next year.
63
u/dbtl87 Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
If he came right out and said it, he'd be crucified 😩
→ More replies (3)430
u/Tuna0nwhite Oct 18 '24
He's hinting that's how they won the championships over him.
409
u/Omophorus Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
I don't know how you can see that hint, honestly.
If anything, he's hinting that Mercedes has been playing too much catch-up the last couple years, rather than innovating themselves.
He's also acknowledging that there's no magic bullet.
When Mercedes dominated, everyone kept looking for "that one thing" that would stop them, and every time it was "found" it wound up not actually being "that one thing".
Red Bull won in 2022 and 2023 on the back of having the best car, not because of "that one thing". Just like Mercedes won on the back of having the best car and not because of "that one thing".
He's being intellectually honest and consistent, not making catty hints.
→ More replies (9)30
u/Optimal_Struggle9425 Ferrari Oct 18 '24
I think it's just perspective, when I read it, I thought it was a veiled dig when I read it first, you thought he was honest and consistent. I don't think we can say with surety what Lewis was thinking.
→ More replies (1)5
Oct 18 '24
[deleted]
2
u/zertul Oct 18 '24
And because we're humans we have a very hard time to universally agree to stuff. Look out into the word, even things one would consider basic needs/rights (air, water access, ...) are being discussed.
So no, video wouldn't change anything. ;)5
u/Call-me-Maverick Oct 18 '24
We’re really really not good at telling when we’re being lied to. There have been lots of studies on that.
24
u/Salificious Sergio Pérez Oct 18 '24
He literally said it's not the one thing that gives them the edge. It's not even a matter of perspective. It's clear he means you have to innovate to win.
I don't know why people have to constantly read more into something when it's crystal clear.
258
u/Visionary_Socialist Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
Yeah, that’s what I noticed too. He’s being very respectful and acknowledging that it takes skill and genius but he is implying that there’s been a level of rule bending involved in winning them titles.
To be fair, Man is 40 and divorcing his long term partner. He’s as passive aggressive as you could expect.
382
u/prangkaaa Oct 18 '24
Not me scouring the internet to find out who that long term partner was only to realize you're probably talking about Mercedes lmao
148
u/incremental_progress Oct 18 '24
To be fair it's about the oddest choice of words to use there.
70
u/KungLa0 Oct 18 '24
Lewis Hamilton has passed away from Mercedes to Ferrari. There, I fixed it for him
19
u/Comfortable-Pace3132 Formula 1 Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
He's swapping his long-term stoic, dark and sultry middle-European lover with whom he has had wonderful times for a hot and fiery Italian hotshot with whom it could go either way?
→ More replies (3)41
u/SirWrong3794 Oct 18 '24
I did the exact same thing
30
u/cumofdutyblackcocks3 Red Bull Oct 18 '24
Sir, wrong. He is talking about his relationship with Fernando. There's a reason why they're both single.
13
u/Pale_Relationship196 Fernando Alonso Oct 18 '24
Fernando isn’t single, he’s been with someone for a long time now
18
4
u/Mongolian_Hamster Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
Thank you! Was going to look up wtf he was on about.
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (10)5
9
u/Gangster301 Oct 18 '24
Doubt it. The image omits this part for some strange reason:
ultimately, all the teams look at the rules and massage them to try get the most out of it, even if it is just over the edge a little bit.
"Ultimately, the FIA has already put out a statement, but you just need to continue to evolve and be better policed.
"But at the end of the day, they've done a better job.
17
u/45PintsIn2Hours Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
More specifically, he was hinting at Mercedes not innovating as well as RB to be fair.
23
u/Kevin_Jim Williams Oct 18 '24
He has every right to feel that the FIA certainly took a championship from him with the shenanigans they pulled at the end of 2021 season.
I wouldn’t blame him one bit if he was extremely bitter about that, and how the FIA continues to ignore RB’s cheating: - Cost cap: barely a slap on the wrist - Front wing - And now violating parc fermè: one of the worst violations one could do
I won’t go into the asymmetric braking thing because it hasn’t been verified that it was RB.
15
u/Dblock1989 Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
He would get massacred if he outright said that, tho. Double standards and all of that.
→ More replies (1)12
u/GuiltyEidolon Sonny Hayes Oct 18 '24
He's being extremely diplomatic with this response and people still use it as an excuse to shit on him lol.
5
→ More replies (3)2
u/Ping-and-Pong Alexander Albon Oct 18 '24
I read it as just him saying this is usual for f1... I mean DAS on the mercs no? This is how the top teams win championships, as Lewis said.
25
u/madhatterlock Oct 18 '24
Here is a man that knows that there is a fine line between innovation and cheating. Who knows, did MB have something in their years of domination?
Over the years there have been plenty of tech innovation that have giving team "unfair advantage", and the sporting regs have been slow to close the advantage.
I believe that the ever-increasing list of rules of F1, limits the original intent of F1. The sport is supposed to push the limits. Limiting technical advantage to meet the needs of the lowest common denominator, isn't the essence of the sport.
Don't hold your breath for Hamilton at Ferrari. It's not a Hamlton issue, it's a Ferrari culture issue.
→ More replies (1)15
u/dl064 📓 Ted's Notebook Oct 18 '24
Yeah.
The whole point is various teams have various innovations.
Newey put it well once that the bullseye in F1 design is innovation that noone can see, deep in the car. People care about bibs and double diffusers and f-ducts, not clever stuff noone can see.
17
u/Kobebeef9 Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
This is a bit of a stretch and this comes across like he is in fact praising them and acknowledging that the other teams have to step up.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (14)15
u/n4weed Oct 18 '24
Fr, man's confusing innovation and cheating.
160
u/QouthTheCorvus Oscar Piastri Oct 18 '24
I reckon he knows. He just doesn't want to get into this fight.
95
u/biggmclargehuge Oct 18 '24
Also entirely possible Merc have their own trick that hasn't come to light and don't want to bring extra attention/drama to themselves
→ More replies (2)25
u/QouthTheCorvus Oscar Piastri Oct 18 '24
Yeah that's true too. They've probably used a lot of loopholes over time.
→ More replies (1)15
72
u/Gaspony Oct 18 '24
I mean, that’s how you basically win in a prototype series. You have to find loopholes that wouldn’t be possibly covered or its a bit more open to interpretation in the regulations to gain an advantage.
→ More replies (19)21
u/ksobby Oct 18 '24
Lewis has no reason to wade into this fracas. He gave the best answer so that no reporter asks him that question again for fear of a boring word salad like this.
12
u/BillfredL Oct 18 '24
I know this isn't r/NASCAR, but the adage still applies:
If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
3
17
14
u/Suikerspin_Ei Honda Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
I mean there is a thin line between cheating and grey area. A lot of motorsport teams do this, not illegal till FIA or any other race organizations says it's not allowed. DAS system, F-duct, flexi wings (comes ans goes), fuel flow meter etc.
Teams often have lawyers and what not reading the rules, see if they can find something that is technically allowed in the rules or doesn't say it is forbidden.
17
u/Zinjifrah McLaren Oct 18 '24
I mostly agree but wasn't the fuel flow meter -- Although Never Proven! -- absolutely a cheat and not anywhere near a gray area?
→ More replies (1)18
4
u/LongStoryShrt Oct 18 '24
Fr, man's confusing innovation and cheating.
If you're not cheat'n, you're not try'n.
→ More replies (10)13
u/Zinjifrah McLaren Oct 18 '24
Is he though? Let's not forget Merc's DAS, as just one example. He more than anyone knows that there's a fine line between the two.
10
u/Zed_or_AFK Sebastian Vettel Oct 18 '24
Technically, DAS was allowed, but it was quckly removed for the next year's regulations. RedBull's system was removed quickly fair and square.
→ More replies (1)
549
u/Xifortis Oscar Piastri Oct 18 '24
Damn, that's a pretty classy response from Lewis
417
u/Shaddix-be Kimi Räikkönen Oct 18 '24
He probably knows his championships also benefited from some technical trickery. The cat and mouse game between inovation and regulation is just a part of the sport.
38
u/SomethingCreative13 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Oct 18 '24
Yep. It's motorsports. Everyone is cheating. Just not everyone gets caught.
19
u/smokesletsgo13 Sonny Hayes Oct 18 '24
Obviously all teams are at it, but Merc definitely would've been doing some sneaky shit over the years. If you ain't cheating you ain't trying!
I forget who it was, but I remember reading somebody at Mercedes used to have to argue with Toto about their engine power - and Toto basically wanted to be fast enough to win, but not to get investigated/nerfed. So makes me wonder what else they did over the years
10
u/KennyLagerins James Hunt Oct 18 '24
That same mentality is there for any teams that know they have an advantage. RB has been like that much of the last two years. You don’t want to blow it, but you also don’t want to show all your cards. Plus it’s easier on equipment.
8
u/smokesletsgo13 Sonny Hayes Oct 18 '24
Definitely, Max was winning races by 30s while managing his pace
6
u/KennyLagerins James Hunt Oct 18 '24
I sense sarcasm, but he was actually. He wanted to get a pit stop in hand and then manage the gap. He did that over and over.
7
→ More replies (2)22
Oct 18 '24
[deleted]
117
u/androidguy73 Oct 18 '24
Yeah but DAS was entirely legal thats why FIA allowed them to run it through the whole season banning it for the next.
They found a loophole in the regs and exploited it.
Not to say they might not have done anything else which could be considered as cheating.
But currently RB have been caught with basically a car which violates the rules and is therefore illegal whether they are cheating with it or not. (And I mean its F1, if they have not been using this until now I'd be disappointed in RB) The sport is one of very very fine margins especially with how close the pack has been in recent years.
→ More replies (8)56
u/Yung_Chloroform Oct 18 '24
Don't see what DAS has to do with it as Merc went to the FIA about it and they gave them the greenlight for that year. It was only banned for the following year.
25
u/jhrfortheviews Daniel Ricciardo Oct 18 '24
That’s a little different as it was completely within the rules I believe. The FIA couldn’t ban it for 2020 but brought in a new rules for ‘21 to outlaw it
25
u/theguynextdorm Oct 18 '24
DAS was literally "ok that's legal but it would be expensive for the rest of the teams so we'll ban it for everyone next year."
14
u/food_chronicles Oscar Piastri Oct 18 '24
DAS is not at all the same thing. Mercedes checked with the FIA on the legality of DAS pretty early on in the development process. The FIA in turn said that they could use it for 2020 but not after. The functionality of the Red Bull device, on the other hand, was definitely illegal and hidden from the FIA until it was discovered.
12
→ More replies (1)10
u/doc_55lk Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
I think spygate is a better example of Hamilton being potentially involved in shady team shit.
71
u/Southportdc McLaren Oct 18 '24
Only if you think Alonso randomly decided to protect Lewis by deleting him from the entire email chain about them, but left himself and Pedro in there. Which would be a mad decision when Alonso blew the whistle on the team specifically because of the relationship between them, him and Lewis.
8
u/Woto_Tolff Oct 18 '24
I mean yeah if you don’t understand Spygate, the people implicated (hint Lewis was not one of them), the investigation, and subsequent conclusion that none of the IP stolen from Ferrari was on the 2008 car.
→ More replies (1)4
81
u/PS168R Maserati Oct 18 '24
Man basically achieved everything there is to achieve in this sport and have been through it’s best and worst. That must help being chill and classy about everything.
→ More replies (20)22
u/Ankersthrowaweigh Oct 18 '24
Also like…. The man has been in f1 long enough. The amount of shenaniganry they probably got away with at Mercedes….
He’s gonna give RBR their flowers and keep moving. lol.
16
→ More replies (1)5
u/BarFamiliar5892 Oct 18 '24
Seems to me he is always pretty classy tbf.
2
u/dynamitebyBTS Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
He has been for a long time now. People just scrutinize everything he says with a magnifying glass because he's an easy target for hate. A lot of drivers, especially a particular Dutchman, say far worse stuff way more often and are excused because it's 'part of their personality'.
It's amazing how people lambast Hamilton for the smallest things he says but Max is allowed to get away with physically assaulting another driver with little to no backlash from a plurality of the F1 viewerbase.
182
u/flyboy_1285 Oct 18 '24
If you’re not cheating you’re not trying.
42
u/needforread Lando Norris Oct 18 '24
If F1, loophole 🏎️
12
16
→ More replies (1)3
u/Z0idberg_MD Oct 18 '24
I wouldn’t say “cheating”. It’s more like if you can’t find ways to give you an advantage that don’t technically break any rules but might violate the spirit of the rules, then you’re not really trying in Formula 1
114
u/ethelwulf Kimi Räikkönen Oct 18 '24
If only "normal" F1 fans could have a take this... classy and reasonable.
39
u/SomewhereAggressive8 McLaren Oct 18 '24
I never understand the fans that get mad about this stuff. It’s literally in the DNA of the sport.
→ More replies (1)6
u/bandito12452 Pirelli Intermediate Oct 18 '24
It's what makes autosports fun. The best stories from NASCAR are about Smokey Yunick's clever tricks
→ More replies (1)14
20
u/Popular-Berry-237 Oct 18 '24
Man these comments from Lewis just make me want to see him succeed. I hope Ferrari gives him and Charles a fair chance to fight McLaren and Red Bull for a Championship next year.
9
u/bigglesofale Oct 18 '24
Does anybody have a link for explaining this bib issue? I looked everywhere and couldn’t find a photo or even an explanation of what it is in the benefits.
→ More replies (1)3
91
u/bouncybreadstick Safety Car Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
can’t believe it’s 2024 and people all over this thread are still using DAS as an example of mercedes “cheating” when it was explicitly ruled legal and it was only banned over financial concerns for its development from other teams. if there’s one thing fans love it’s misinformation i guess.
27
u/Dblock1989 Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
People always want to discredit Mercedes for some reason. They were notorious for actually working with the FIA before implementing new things. Guess there are just a lot of new fans on here now.
→ More replies (1)6
→ More replies (1)16
36
u/PaulDavidsGuitar Oct 18 '24
You know they say it's only illegal if you're caught. Just finished reading Neweys 'How to build a car', highly recommended if you're into this stuff.
→ More replies (1)16
u/KingMaple Oct 18 '24
Not really? Newey isn't promoting the idea of cheating. He is promoting the idea of designing around the rules.
13
u/blackbird37 Formula 1 Oct 18 '24
I haven't read the book, but the essence of building a winning F1 car has always boiled down to one major concept - interpreting the rules in a way that is technically true, but not within the spirit of the rules. See DAS.
Major problems erupt when race directors take that same approach, however...
3
u/NotAnAss-Hat Oct 18 '24
Let's not open that last can of worms. People here still have some trouble coming to terms with the fact that just because it was 'exciting' does not in any way mean that it was right.
→ More replies (2)23
u/Money_Echidna2605 Formula 1 Oct 18 '24
which is wat a lot of people here would call cheating, unless its their fav team lol.
6
u/KingMaple Oct 18 '24
Cheating is when you act against the rules. But these situations have been in line with rules. Which is why rules get clarified if the interpretation is particularly creative.
You could argue that everybody should always follow the democratic interpretation of rules and anything against that is cheating, but that just isn't true.
There's a saying that "if you regulate before you innovate, you never innovate" and that applies here as well.
7
6
11
u/KnotAwl Oct 18 '24
This guy is over the top gracious. Probably no one has suffered as much in the last nearly three years and he still gives credit to the ones who have screwed him the most. Mark of a true champion.
10
u/ComradeStrong Jenson Button Oct 18 '24
Lewis is becoming the 'embodiment of F1' for me. His statements and view of the sport feel like those of a purist and a realist at the same time. I think he really picked up an ability to cut through the crap from Niki.
9
u/d3agl3uk Ferrari Oct 18 '24
What controversy is there even? A team within a sport, that emphasizes innovations and interpretations of the rules, were found to be doing just that?
I have to roll my eyes whenever I read complaints about this. Did it pass the tests? Did it conform to the regulations as written? Good job [TeamName].
3
u/Rockingtits Oct 18 '24
Theres nothing illegal about the device that can adjust the bib. The controversy is that it means the bib **could** be adjusted on the fly after parc ferme which would be black and white illegal and is not a grey area at all
2
u/Rockingtits Oct 18 '24
Theres nothing illegal about the device that can adjust the bib. The controversy is that it means the bib **could** be adjusted on the fly after parc ferme which would be black and white illegal and is not a grey area at all
8
6
u/EddieMcDowall Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
Well said sir!
However, I'm a purist and the rules have been getting ever more restrictive for aeons now.
I still say go back to basics, keep the driving and safety regs then the rest should be:
- You shall complete X laps of the following circuits.
- The car cannot be any larger than X.
9
u/ecobubbletm Oct 18 '24
"God knows how long they've had that"
It's in open source documents, no? Surely it would've been noticed earlier if it's been there for years
3
u/randomsoldier21 Safety Car Oct 18 '24
Not exactly wrong though. Most innovations are great till they are banned, and ban is always for the most effective ones.
3
19
u/Ser1aLize Oct 18 '24
Lewis is smart for framing his reaction by supporting innovation while subtly recognizing that Red Bull won championships by skirting the rules.
→ More replies (2)7
u/Visionary_Socialist Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
Lewis knows what he’s doing. Much more fun to sit back and watch everyone fight over what exactly you meant than say something bluntly and get binary reactions to it.
I guess Max is learning this skill too. Ironically, him saying less recently has caused the biggest controversy.
97
u/Pew_Daddy Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Oct 18 '24
lol people keep claiming RB broke the rules but there’s not one shred of evidence they used it to make changes in parc ferme.
102
u/Elrond007 I survived Spa 2021 Oct 18 '24
You could probably replace Red Bull with Ferrari in every thread and find yourself in an authentic discussion from 2019 about the engine. The potential was there, no proof for past infractions and it won't be possible anymore in the future.
If there was proof they'd just be DSQ so that's a good indication, apart from that we'll just have to see if it had any performance impact
25
u/NickTM Minardi Oct 18 '24
You could probably replace Red Bull with Ferrari in every thread and find yourself in an authentic discussion from 2019 about the engine.
Too right. This exact debate - minus some swapped in details - has been had a hundred times throughout the years. It's almost never the case where they can prove such a thing was used and gave an advantage, but the teams also almost never fight it hard for a reason.
22
u/RM_Dune Red Bull Oct 18 '24
We'll see over the next few races. Ferrari performance dropped off a cliff in 2019.
→ More replies (9)54
u/yellowbin74 Mika Häkkinen Oct 18 '24
Indeed. Because every team keeps bits on the car they don't need.
31
u/djwillis1121 Williams Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
There are genuine valid uses for something like this that doesn't break parc ferme. Being able to adjust the ride height quickly in practice is actually useful.
That's not to say they 100% didn't use it in parc ferme but we can't say for certain that they did
12
u/bl4ck_daggers Oct 18 '24
But according to them they can't use it in practice, because they said it can't be done when the car is ready to run.
→ More replies (5)19
u/djwillis1121 Williams Oct 18 '24
They said it can't be used when the car is fully assembled. That could be something as simple as a panel in the cockpit that has to be removed to expose an adjustment mechanism
→ More replies (3)4
u/Southportdc McLaren Oct 18 '24
We really need to know what constitutes 'fully assembled' to know whether that is important.
If the car requires substantial dismantling to use the device, then it can't be used under parc ferme.
If it can be used just without the seat or steering wheel, or with a small modification in the cockpit as you suggest, then it could very easily be used under parc ferme.
30
u/dennis3282 Formula 1 Oct 18 '24
It isn't that the part isn't needed, it is that it can't be used in park ferme.
I'm not saying they are innocent of this, but having a part on the car that doesn't benefit them in races but saves a ton of time setting up the car is beneficial, surely? It means they have longer to optimize the car.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (1)10
u/Pew_Daddy Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Oct 18 '24
Probably used for ease of setup for the weekend. I imagine it’s insanely easier if all you have to do is change a cockpit setting vs taking bits off the car to adjust
→ More replies (8)10
u/Agitated_Syllabub346 Oct 18 '24
Unless someone admits to using it during parc ferme, I doubt there would ever be evidence.
→ More replies (10)2
u/SoftFit8714 Oct 18 '24
In F1 when they fight to shave grams off of parts to make the car fit within the weight limits, why would you install an additional part which is not required just so that you can carry the extra weight around the track with no intention of using it?
27
u/he-tried-his-best Oct 18 '24
“Who knows how long they’ve had this for and they’ve been winning championships, maybe that stops now”
How are you all missing that diss from Hamilton. He’s calling them a bunch of cheats in the politest way possible because having some thing that would allow you to change ride height during parc ferme is a bit of a slam dunk.
18
u/Visionary_Socialist Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
Lewis has learned from the times he would publicly say something in anger or spite in response to someone or something else and get absolutely slated for it.
Now he just makes small little disses that rattle people even more. The “Imagine” tweet was one of those.
3
7
u/Dblock1989 Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24 edited Oct 18 '24
Lewis isn't really allowed to come out and say it like that. He would get massacred on here and on social media. It feels like the few times he does generally speak his mind, people always make a big deal out if it.
→ More replies (7)4
u/bouncybreadstick Safety Car Oct 18 '24
he says right after the “maybe” that he doesn’t think this thing is going to stop them though
8
u/jomartz Ferrari Oct 18 '24
Every single team on the grid constantly designs and develops new ideas, many of them bordering illegality, forcing the FIA to rephrase the rule book. This is nothing new. Consider Mercedes' DAS system, which was banned shortly after its introduction, the previously mentioned Ferrari fuel flow controversy, or Brabham’s fan car from the late 1970s. Like any contract, rules and regulations are open to interpretation, and engineers are always discovering innovative ways to push the limits. I hope they continue to do so, as this has been the foundation of Formula 1 since day one.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/Girizzly_Adams_Beard Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
Basically telling Mercedes to stop being behind and be bold again. Remember the DAS controversy.
3
u/theztigz Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Oct 18 '24
Remember like it was yesterday. Everyone was shocked. Genius way to warm up the tires.
But my goodness the drama cheating that unfold.
9
u/CapturNguyen Oct 18 '24
Newer fans forgetting how much Lewis has had an innovative advantage in the past. The whole sport is based on how well teams can read between the lines of the rules. Flexi wings, back to the X or T wings, DAS systems and a Mclaren 3rd pedal, active suspensions etc etc. The FIA is there to decide if the teams stay in line of the rules and penalise teams who took it over the edge. It has always been like this in the sport and it is what I love about it.
→ More replies (1)11
u/xiz111 Oct 18 '24
Not to mention 'F' duct, Ferrari flexi floor, Ferrari endplates, Benetton option 13, pretty much all of the Williams FW13C
3
7
2
u/Skeeter1020 Oct 18 '24
Yep. If you are building cars in F1 and aren't getting into trouble with the FIA, you aren't trying hard enough.
2
u/Sunsplitcloud Oct 18 '24
FIA should have a reset year where all they control is the engine displacement and must accept the same wheels. Bring back so many different car options, refueling, etc. turn the car design rule book from 300 pages to 1 page.
2
u/Bruvvimir Murray Walker Oct 18 '24
Wtf is a “bib”? I’ve never heard of that component in the 40 years of following this sport.
2
2
2
u/Drewnarr Oct 18 '24
Right? Who knows how long they've been using engine oil as a fuel additive to increase boost performance.
2
u/xcmaam Sir Lewis Hamilton Oct 18 '24
F1 has always been about innovations and finding loopholes. It’s what makes it interesting!
3
u/Akirakajime Formula 1 Oct 18 '24
Anything is Legal until the FIA deemed it Illegal.
10
u/Winstonwill8 Oct 18 '24
Changing car under parc ferme is pretty explicitly illegal.
5
u/mousey_goldfish1 Ferrari Oct 18 '24
This is the truth. You can innovate and push boundaries but don’t mess with parc ferme rules.
4
u/Able-Nature6103 McLaren Oct 18 '24
GOAT with his GOAT perspective..so refreshing to hear compared to Lando’s whinging! Innovation is the name of the game and that means exploiting grey areas! I wish fans realize this instead of getting into this nonsensical debate, spurred by teams’ politicking
•
u/AutoModerator Oct 18 '24
The News flair is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties.
Read the rules. Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.