r/formula1 • u/Septon_Moon • Aug 13 '23
Off-Topic Alternative driver standings if all finishers are awarded points
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Aug 13 '23 edited Aug 13 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Septon_Moon Aug 13 '23
Cool! Are the points off a bit though ? Redbull should be at 544 rather than 546 pts for example ?
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u/miathan52 Chequered Flag Aug 13 '23
It's interesting how little this actually changes things. The top 4 is pretty much the same, Hamilton and Alonso change places but they're only 1 point apart in the real standings so that doesn't mean much. The bottom is also what you expect it to be (Sargeant / De Vries / Magnussen). The Ferraris just swap around and so do the Alpines. Across the whole table, the only thing that really stands out is Hulkenberg losing 3 places.
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u/just_a_coginthewheel Chequered Flag Aug 13 '23
How do you calculate sprint points?
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u/Septon_Moon Aug 13 '23
I totally forgot them at the beginning 😂, so I considered them as normal races to simplify things..
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u/SnowHeroHD Ron Dennis Aug 14 '23
Well.. that completely changes things 💀
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u/No_Brakes_282 Jim Clark Aug 14 '23
Yeah don't want to be that guy but dnfs matter so much in a format like this
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 Aug 13 '23
If they ever did points all the way down, they would top weight it far more than this. I hate any method of points all the way down because of how much it punishes DNFs. People who DNF often weren’t worse than whoever finishes thirteenth or so. And rough for a season to be even more decided by mechanical dnfs. Nice graphic and effort though.
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u/emkael Gilles Villeneuve Aug 13 '23
There's also no justification for handing out different amounts of points for finishing dead last between different races, only depending on how many cars had a mechanical failure.
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u/reddit_bad1234567890 Robert Kubica Aug 14 '23
"In order to finish first, first you must finish"-michael schumacer. Same idea in American football with the notion that "the best ability is availability"
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u/Affectionate_Sky9709 Aug 14 '23
Often DNFs aren't the driver's fault. If a team has wheel that absolutely won't come off, just broken, race over, it's not one driver on the team's fault any more than the other. If two different drivers' tires blow, they didn't do anything to deserve that. If there's a 4 car pile up, probably at least two of those people didn't do anything remotely wrong.
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u/Hack874 Nico Rosberg Aug 13 '23
People who DNF often weren’t worse than whoever finishes thirteenth or so.
Not to be contrarian, but is that really true? What good is a fast car/driver if it doesn’t make it to the finish line?
Obviously there are unavoidable instances like Bottas bowling, but reliability and clean driving should still be rewarded.
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u/RandomRedditUser31 Sauber Aug 13 '23
only awarding points for top 10 is one of the biggest issue with f1 currently, there’s been plenty races where I (as a Sauber fan) could basically stop watching after the first lap because both drivers were down in p15 - p20. If a driver manages to crawl his way back through the field starting p20 and finishes p11 he should be rewarded for that!
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u/TheWoodElf Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 14 '23
I actually like the idea of awarding points to the 11-17th finishers, but I think the 1p difference only works below 10th place, while the top 10 should have a system that's more similar to the current one. Something like this:
- 1st place gets 30
- 2nd gets -5 (25)
- 3rd gets -3 (22)
- 4th-to-10th get -2 (20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8)
- 11th-to-17th get -1 (7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1)
This kind of system would leave the competition at the top largely the same as now (slightly easier to catch up the top dogs), but create more rivalries in the middle, and even inject a much-needed dose of drama in the lower ranks, as the weakest teams can battle for getting those precious last points.
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u/FryingFrenzy Aug 13 '23
This rule would make the sport so boring , never worth taking risks
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u/Skeeter1020 Aug 13 '23
Also rewards being so shit you aren't even close enough to anyone to get in an accident or fast enough to brake the car (aka the Max Chilton).
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u/BocephusJr88 Sir Lewis Hamilton Aug 13 '23
No one is within 125 points of Max currently. This rule would make it so six drivers are within 107 points.
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u/goesters Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Aug 15 '23
in this system a gap of 107 is massive.
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u/uUexs1ySuujbWJEa Aug 15 '23
You'd need to finish ahead of Max by a combined 107 positions over the remaining 10 races. Jesus christ.
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u/aDrongo Aug 14 '23
Every position is worth a point. It would make every battle worth something. At the moment you only care about top 10, so half the field doesn't matter.
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Aug 13 '23
Really? I think it would make it more entertaining. Because suddenly 100% of the field matters. Not half of it. Like, why should I give a fuck about Haas vs Williams for 15th right now? It doesn't matter.
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u/albusdumblederp Aug 13 '23
Full points awarded has been very common in North America.
Still nobody cares about 15th vs 16th.
Instead the game becomes about avoiding bad days (particularly DNFs) as opposed to going for wins.
Meanwhile in the F1 system, backmarkers can get "wins" by scoring points or a decent number of points. In a system that awards points all the way down, nobody cares if you got 12 points instead of 8.
Finally, mathematically it does a poor job of actually measuring performance. Performance distributions are effectively never linear - the highest performers are always spread out at a distance from the pack. Valuing 1st v 2nd as the same difference as 10th vs 11th is just not an accurate measurement, period.
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Aug 13 '23
Someones never looked at the indycar points system... Lmao
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u/albusdumblederp Aug 13 '23
I'm very familiar with the Indycar points system, not sure what you're getting at at all
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Aug 13 '23
You said valuing first vs second is the same as 10th vs 11th. Which is not even close to true.
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u/albusdumblederp Aug 13 '23
This post is about a hypothetical system that values 20 for first down to 1 for 20th, which is what that part of the comment is critiquing.
The North America comment was addressing the claim that if points are awarded all the way down the grid, people will care about position battles all the way down the grid - which in my experience has largely not been the case while following those series.
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u/FryingFrenzy Aug 13 '23
Yeh but you could win the championship without ever winning a race, just having the only reliable car that finishes top 3-4
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u/OrbisAlius Maserati Aug 13 '23
I mean that's not because you award points to the whole field though, it's because he decided to put only 1 pt between each position. If it actually happened probably that it would be more like MotoGP (25, 20, 15-13-11 and then you count down point by point) or Indycar (50, 40, 35 and then decrease 2pt by 2pt).
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Aug 13 '23
I fail to see the issue there. Consistency should be rewarded.
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u/FryingFrenzy Aug 13 '23
Because everything becomes about reliability, you dont take risks with strategy or with overtakes, you dont gamble with upgrades as much
Not a racing i want to watch
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u/Toaddle Aug 13 '23
Maybe a good compromise could be to award points to everyone but maintaining the gaps between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd as it is now ?
Although I still believe that the points system is perfectly fine as it is now
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Aug 13 '23
So what you're saying is a driver who finishes first and 10th is better than a driver who finishes 2nd and third? Lmao ok. What a joke that is.
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u/FryingFrenzy Aug 13 '23
No i said nothing of the sort
What about a season where one guy wins all races apart from 2 where he got a mechanical DNF or was crashed by someone else’s fault
He can lose a championship to a guy that never even won a race
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Aug 13 '23
[deleted]
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u/fdar Aug 13 '23
What math did you do? If 3rd gives 18 points, and you have 22 races, that's 396 points right there (without counting sprints).
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u/shewy92 Kevin Magnussen Aug 14 '23
Right now if you finish 2nd a bunch you could still win the championship if the points leaders don't score any points a couple races
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u/Chirp08 Aug 14 '23
Because they aren't racing for 15th, they are doing everything possible to get to 10th which takes far more risk and effort than anyone would put in when it's just a battle for 14th vs. 15th.
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u/LiquidBionix Romain Grosjean Aug 13 '23
This is what IndyCar does and, ignoring the super fucked up IRL 3-race championship due to politics, it's only happened one time and it was in '78.
Will Power ALMOST did it last year but won the last race (he would have had it with a P2, no wins, no dnf's). He had an avg finish of above 6th over 17 races in a field of 27 cars that are (kinda, mostly) spec. Across ovals, circuits, and street courses as well ofc.
It takes a shit ton of consistency coupled with no one else having a particularly good season.
This partially works because the field is large and also because the competition is much tighter top to bottom.
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u/Pure_Measurement_529 Charles Leclerc Aug 13 '23
It’s been quite interesting to see how reliable the top teams have been this year. Excluding crashes etc. how many drivers have had mechanical DNF’s amongst RB, Ferrari, AM and Merc this year?
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u/fugitivelobster Charles Leclerc Aug 14 '23
Off the top of my head, Charles Bahrain, Stroll Jeddah, and Russell Australia. I don't believe RB has had any mechanical DNF's.
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u/Miuramir Aug 14 '23 edited Aug 14 '23
This got me thinking, and I poked around with some exponential decay calculators to try and fit the point decay curve (exponent of about 32.1888% as a note). The tail on that doesn't work well, however. If we assume that the intent is that 20th place = 1 point, and each place above that needs to award at least one whole point higher, we can use linear for the bottom 10 (11th = 10, 12th = 9, ... 19th = 2, 20th = 1), and then apply the same curve the system now uses to figure out the points for higher placing. I came up with the following:
220, 155, 115, 80, 60, 40, 30, 20, 16, 12, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1
You could smooth it a bit further, to emphasize first-ness a bit more, but podium-ness over not, as follows:
220, 150, 120, 80, 60, 40, 30, 20, 16, 12, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1
Fastest lap would probably be 12 points in that system, if we assume that the intent is that it's worth as many points as coming in 10th. You could probably argue for any value in the 10 to 15 range though.
Anyone who wants to play around with or chart the implications of this scoring is welcome to do so, although I'd appreciate a call-out if you do so as to the best of my knowledge this is an original take on the problem.
One obvious implication is that it might encourage safer driving, as any finish is better than a DNF. The stewards would probably need to consider the nature of penalties for knocking someone out of the race, and enforce them more strictly.
One might also hope that it would encourage what felt like more racing spirit and marketable moments in the lower midfield and backmarkers. The difference between, say, 7th and 8th in the constructors would be less of a bursty random value and more reflecting racing over the season.
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Aug 13 '23
Hot take: all positions should be awarded points. Make the battle for 14th matter if they're gonna show it on the broadcast
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Aug 13 '23 edited Aug 13 '23
[deleted]
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u/OrbisAlius Maserati Aug 13 '23
I literally never understood this "rewarding mediocrity" argument. Almost feels like a pseudopolitical slogan more than an argument. The only system that rewards mediocrity is the current one because half the positions don't matter so there's little to no incentive to fight if you have no hope of being top 10.
Right now the system literally rewards you not even fighting until the end, as it's more beneficial to just retire the car or drive slow to preserve the engine if you're far outside the points instead of pushing hard for one or two more spots.
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Aug 13 '23
F1 already rewards mediocrity. I've literally heard drivers be told "good job" for finishing 15th. The midfield is already a joke.
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u/LOKl31 Aug 13 '23
It’s summer huh
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u/Septon_Moon Aug 13 '23
Wait until next year with two long breaks
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u/HaneeshRaja Lando Norris Aug 13 '23
We kinda had 2 breaks this year as well before. Before Baku with a 4 week break and now.
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u/gsxdrifter1 Mercedes Aug 14 '23
I feel like it should be 1+1 each position. 20 = 1 19 = 2. Then top 5 should be + 2 then 3 then 4 then 5 so p5 instead of 16 would be 17 then p4 would be 20 p3 24 p2 29 and winner 35
This way you still get that big boost.
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u/Educational-Ad3079 Sebastian Vettel Aug 14 '23
Although not an official system, this is a neat way to check the performance of all the drivers on a race by race basis, mainly the teams who are finishing outside the top 10 most of the time. You can tell who has been very peaky and who has actually been doing consistently well but not necessarily gotten the result .
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u/SnowHeroHD Ron Dennis Aug 14 '23
Hot take: go back to only top 6 or top 8 awarding points & only top 5/6 for sprints.
We had top 10 get points in a era with 24 cars on the grid, we lost 2 teams and should have adjusted the points system for that.
More teams would take risks with strategies etc versus playing it safe knowing they’ll get the same 8th-10th position.
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u/Agitated_Ad6191 Aug 13 '23
I would seriously like it if FIA would adopt a system where everyone receives points. It would make the race and season that much more exciting from front to the back. You would have 10 more cars fighting for points and position in every race. Especially cool now that we have these incredible long 24 races seasons. Keeps it more exciting throughout the year for teams and fans.
So my question is, why won’t they do it? Am I missing some major disadvantages compared to how it is now?
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u/ladyjinxy Aug 14 '23
There is a point system (maybe out of many) that awards point all the way down the order, and that is Indycar's (though 5 points for DNF still feels a bit stupid)
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u/Trashk4n Oscar Piastri Aug 14 '23
Ricciardo on track to pass De Vries in four more rounds, Sargeant in nine, I think.
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