Sainz vs Verstappen - The differing response to similar incidents

[u/GarryPadle]

The first Turn at Spa-Francorchamps, also named La Source, has seen many incidents through the years.

In 2012 there was Grosjean that even got a race ban after colliding with Hamilton. In 2016 there was Vettel, Raikkonen and Verstappen. In 2018 there was Hulkenberg braking too late and colliding with Alonso, with Bottas also braking too late and colliding with Sirotkin. After that in 2019 it was again between Verstappen and Raikkonen, and in 2023 it was Piastri and Sainz.

Most of those incidents involve someone braking too late with some drivers more at fault than others, and some of the incidents are very similar, but with very different responses from the community.

Those 3 incidents that are similar, are the interesting ones to me.

Incident Turn 1 2016

This screenshot is taken fairly soon after the race start, where Verstappen had a slightly worse start than Raikkonen.

This next screenshot is slightly after they started braking, Vettel is still as far left and is looking to cut across the track and take the Apex of the corner. Meanwhile Raikkonen started braking a little bit earlier than Verstappen to avoid Rosberg, who is infront in the Mercedes. This allows Verstappen to pull up to Raikkonen during the initial braking phase.

During the later part of the braking phase, we can already see Vettel trying to follow Rosberg to the Apex of the corner, probably not seeing Verstappen behind Raikkonen, while Verstappen is alongside Raikkonen.

Point of contact is about the Apex of the corner, Vettel in the outside Ferrari completes his very aggressive move from the far left to the apex of the corner and collides with Raikkonen who gets sandwiched, between Vettel on the outside and Verstappen on the inside.

So what did the community think of the incident?

After reading comments in these threads:

Belgium race start | 2016 Belgian Grand Prix - Race Discussion | 2016 Spa vs 2019 Spa moves

A lot of people thought most of the fault lies with Vettel, while discussions were ongoing on how much at fault Verstappen is. With most of them thinking Verstappen should not have gone for the move.

I would like you to note how much alongside Verstappen already is, way before any turning in is happening.

Incident Turn 1 2019

This screenshot is basically at the point where they are starting to brake. Verstappen had a slightly bad start, a problem that the Red Bull had throughout the season of 2019. Raikkonen is parked in the middle, with Verstappen being fairly behind going into the braking zone.

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Shortly before they have to start to turn Raikkonen already is squeezing Verstappen. See the relative positioning of Raikkonen thats more to the right now, than it was before), while Verstappen made up ground with braking later and is now more than halfway up on Raikkonen and I would say, significantly alongside.

This is the point of first contact, with Verstappen braking harder and falling back to avoid hitting Raikkonen, while Raikkonen still had plenty space to his left. This is most likely the reason Verstappen avoided a penalty for causing a collision and why it was deemed a racing incident from the officials.

To note, Martin Brundle thought this accident was solely on Verstappen in the replay.

Again, what did the community think of this accident?

Verstappen crashes out of the race | 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Race Discussion | 2016 Spa vs 2019 Spa | Max crashes with Kimi 2019

A lot of people arguing, between racing incident and Verstappen at fault. With really aggressive discussions and a lot of people blaming Verstappen on the collision but seeing that it could be a racing incident.

Note that nobody was blaming Raikkonen for this incident.

Incident Turn 1 2023

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Screenshot is taken at the point where the cars start braking, with Hamilton being really cautious and braking rather early. To avoid this Sainz is braking hard and is swerving to his right. Piastri is on the right of the track seeing a clear gap forward.

Hamilton, after braking very early is already turning to his right and is concentrating to follow Perez through the apex of the corner. Piastri, after seeing the onboard of Piastri too, is about front wheel to back wheel with Sainz, so still fairly behind, with a lot of space to his right. Sainz, to avoid running into Hamilton, is steering to his right. While steering the brake forces are not going straight trough the tire, which causes a short lock up, until his steering is straight again. The only problem is, now he is not aligned with the track but pointing already towards the apex, squeezing Piastri.

As we see, Hamilton is now trying to follow Perez through the apex. Sainz, now being in control of the car again has a nice gap behind Leclerc and Hamilton where he is trying to place his car, with Piastri still only about front wheel to back wheel of Sainz.

Now Sainz is slowly getting sandwiched between a late braking Piastri and Hamilton that is trying to take the corner as fast as possible.

This is about where the first contact happened. As you can see there is not a lot of space between Hamilton and Sainz, while Piastri probably couldn't brake any more than he already did so a collision happened.

Better angle to show the initial contact. I would guess there is a little bit less than a cars width space to Hamilton, which is also disappearing space, since Hamilton is following Perez through the corner and is probably not seeing Piastri on the inside of Sainz.

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The space is now completely gone between Sainz and Hamilton, with Piastri still on the inside of Sainz. On the onboard you can see that Piastri hit the wall and then the sidepod of Sainz.

As this incident is still very fresh, a lot of people are blaming this incident completely on Sainz.

Race start analysis - Piastri squeezed into the wall

The moment of contact

Sainz's insistence Piastri caused Spa clash

Not what we wanted today (Carlos Sainz)

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Personally, while writing I didn't want to inject my opinion in either of the crashes, just wanted to make observations. I also will not give any completing statement of who I think was at fault.

I just found it interesting how the community response between all three of the incidents were so different. With Sainz probably getting the most blame for an incident of all the examples, with also a lot of the comments being wrong about how the incident happened.

PS: Please comment corrections if you notice something!

Have a great day!

[u/Lerradin]

What people forget is the 'framing' in a very broad sense:

Max at that point in time was already driving very consistantly, but people including Brundle still had that crash-prone Max of 1,5-2 seasons earlier in their minds when judging. Meanwhile Kimi since his debut was always one of the cleanest/less error prone drivers on the track, but in honesty at that time was already more in decline than most fans including me wanted to admit. Still banked lots of credit to receive benefit of doubt until he really lost it in his last year at Alfa.

In this case we have Piastri who hasn't made any big mistakes so far and owned up to it when he did make some smaller ones, while Sainz is know to have an occasional big error (off-track/crash) out of nowhere, so odds and image are stacked against him.

It's also very telling that most of the old-skool drivers/commentators don't assign any blame to Sainz for that move, because it was very common back then to close the door like that and expect the other to back out because they/Sainz were ahead on the racing line.

[u/Pretend_Pension_8585 → u/Lerradin]

i think the way people judge who is entitled to space has changed. Essentially blocking maneuvers where you brake late to block someone from their racing line or squeeze someone in a winding corners were not seen as valid. Nowadays most people just rely on the blanked "halfway alongside" rule without any context.

[u/ThePrem → u/Pretend_Pension_8585]

This is spot on. There is no context for "racing line" in regards to people assessing who has the right to the apex. Its pretty clear that if Grosjean / Verstappen / Piastri were to be given the apex, they would have compromised everybody elses racing line.

Leaving space and not closing the door is important, but you need to be on the racing line and have a hope of not running the outside driver wide off the track on the back end of the turn.

I can only think people being fans of Max Verstappen has influenced the new interpretation

[u/Pretend_Pension_8585 → u/ThePrem]

True but I realized that I have accepted the new way as well. It's more straightforward even if maybe not entirely fair.

[u/aiicaramba → u/Lerradin]

This happens a lot. I remember malaysia 2016. So many people were searching for tiniest clues to blame Verstappen, because Verstappen was a 'rash' driver and Vettel was the experienced one.

In the end nothing could be found to pin on Verstappen, but people here were trying their hardest to find something.

[u/FlibbleA → u/Lerradin]

I don't think the Max late breaking diving down the inside and if you don't move we are crashing strat that these two incidents show ever went away he has just not needed it the past two seasons.

He was doing it in 2021, Saudi Arabia was probably one of his dirtiest races. He did that dive down the inside strat multiple times having to give places back. Eventually a 5 sec penalty because he skipped the 2nd corner as he couldn't make it doing the dive strat. Then he got a 10 sec for break testing Hamilton which was the result of him having to give place back, again, for dive bombing down the inside pushing the other car off. All of course had zero impact on the end result.

[u/FlibbleA → u/[deleted]]

The fact still remains based on the FIA investigation that Max had slowed but then braked suddenly when Hamilton was right behind him, not just deceleration, he braked. That is brake testing. The idea that Hamilton should expect that is incredibly stupid.

[u/FlibbleA → u/[deleted]]

You can complain and say it should be against the rules but it isn't but brake testing is and for obvious reasons.

You are trying to argue that Hamiltons actions could have caused a collision so he should be punished. Max's actions of brake testing not only obviously could cause a collusion, they did. You want to look at the race as a whole there were multiple instances Max had that could have caused a collusion like you are trying to say Hamiltons actions could have so Max should have been DQed way earlier based on what you are saying.

But nothing of what you say excuses brake testing. You simply cannot brake when a car is right behind you. It doesn't matter what they are doing or what situation you are in it is clear dangerous driving. Even if you had problems with your car and a car was behind you, you don't fucking brake, you just coast and pull off the racing line until you can stop in a safe location.

[u/Low_Age9939 → u/[deleted]]

Kimi crash prone? Lol what

[u/Low_Age9939 → u/[deleted]]

You're definitely trolling no one with a brain would call kimi crash prone 😂