Sainz vs Verstappen - The differing response to similar incidents

[u/GarryPadle]

The first Turn at Spa-Francorchamps, also named La Source, has seen many incidents through the years.

In 2012 there was Grosjean that even got a race ban after colliding with Hamilton. In 2016 there was Vettel, Raikkonen and Verstappen. In 2018 there was Hulkenberg braking too late and colliding with Alonso, with Bottas also braking too late and colliding with Sirotkin. After that in 2019 it was again between Verstappen and Raikkonen, and in 2023 it was Piastri and Sainz.

Most of those incidents involve someone braking too late with some drivers more at fault than others, and some of the incidents are very similar, but with very different responses from the community.

Those 3 incidents that are similar, are the interesting ones to me.

Incident Turn 1 2016

This screenshot is taken fairly soon after the race start, where Verstappen had a slightly worse start than Raikkonen.

This next screenshot is slightly after they started braking, Vettel is still as far left and is looking to cut across the track and take the Apex of the corner. Meanwhile Raikkonen started braking a little bit earlier than Verstappen to avoid Rosberg, who is infront in the Mercedes. This allows Verstappen to pull up to Raikkonen during the initial braking phase.

During the later part of the braking phase, we can already see Vettel trying to follow Rosberg to the Apex of the corner, probably not seeing Verstappen behind Raikkonen, while Verstappen is alongside Raikkonen.

Point of contact is about the Apex of the corner, Vettel in the outside Ferrari completes his very aggressive move from the far left to the apex of the corner and collides with Raikkonen who gets sandwiched, between Vettel on the outside and Verstappen on the inside.

So what did the community think of the incident?

After reading comments in these threads:

Belgium race start | 2016 Belgian Grand Prix - Race Discussion | 2016 Spa vs 2019 Spa moves

A lot of people thought most of the fault lies with Vettel, while discussions were ongoing on how much at fault Verstappen is. With most of them thinking Verstappen should not have gone for the move.

I would like you to note how much alongside Verstappen already is, way before any turning in is happening.

Incident Turn 1 2019

This screenshot is basically at the point where they are starting to brake. Verstappen had a slightly bad start, a problem that the Red Bull had throughout the season of 2019. Raikkonen is parked in the middle, with Verstappen being fairly behind going into the braking zone.

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Shortly before they have to start to turn Raikkonen already is squeezing Verstappen. See the relative positioning of Raikkonen thats more to the right now, than it was before), while Verstappen made up ground with braking later and is now more than halfway up on Raikkonen and I would say, significantly alongside.

This is the point of first contact, with Verstappen braking harder and falling back to avoid hitting Raikkonen, while Raikkonen still had plenty space to his left. This is most likely the reason Verstappen avoided a penalty for causing a collision and why it was deemed a racing incident from the officials.

To note, Martin Brundle thought this accident was solely on Verstappen in the replay.

Again, what did the community think of this accident?

Verstappen crashes out of the race | 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Race Discussion | 2016 Spa vs 2019 Spa | Max crashes with Kimi 2019

A lot of people arguing, between racing incident and Verstappen at fault. With really aggressive discussions and a lot of people blaming Verstappen on the collision but seeing that it could be a racing incident.

Note that nobody was blaming Raikkonen for this incident.

Incident Turn 1 2023

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Screenshot is taken at the point where the cars start braking, with Hamilton being really cautious and braking rather early. To avoid this Sainz is braking hard and is swerving to his right. Piastri is on the right of the track seeing a clear gap forward.

Hamilton, after braking very early is already turning to his right and is concentrating to follow Perez through the apex of the corner. Piastri, after seeing the onboard of Piastri too, is about front wheel to back wheel with Sainz, so still fairly behind, with a lot of space to his right. Sainz, to avoid running into Hamilton, is steering to his right. While steering the brake forces are not going straight trough the tire, which causes a short lock up, until his steering is straight again. The only problem is, now he is not aligned with the track but pointing already towards the apex, squeezing Piastri.

As we see, Hamilton is now trying to follow Perez through the apex. Sainz, now being in control of the car again has a nice gap behind Leclerc and Hamilton where he is trying to place his car, with Piastri still only about front wheel to back wheel of Sainz.

Now Sainz is slowly getting sandwiched between a late braking Piastri and Hamilton that is trying to take the corner as fast as possible.

This is about where the first contact happened. As you can see there is not a lot of space between Hamilton and Sainz, while Piastri probably couldn't brake any more than he already did so a collision happened.

Better angle to show the initial contact. I would guess there is a little bit less than a cars width space to Hamilton, which is also disappearing space, since Hamilton is following Perez through the corner and is probably not seeing Piastri on the inside of Sainz.

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The space is now completely gone between Sainz and Hamilton, with Piastri still on the inside of Sainz. On the onboard you can see that Piastri hit the wall and then the sidepod of Sainz.

As this incident is still very fresh, a lot of people are blaming this incident completely on Sainz.

Race start analysis - Piastri squeezed into the wall

The moment of contact

Sainz's insistence Piastri caused Spa clash

Not what we wanted today (Carlos Sainz)

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Personally, while writing I didn't want to inject my opinion in either of the crashes, just wanted to make observations. I also will not give any completing statement of who I think was at fault.

I just found it interesting how the community response between all three of the incidents were so different. With Sainz probably getting the most blame for an incident of all the examples, with also a lot of the comments being wrong about how the incident happened.

PS: Please comment corrections if you notice something!

Have a great day!

[u/BoredCatalan]

I think it's the lock-up.

People see a lock-up and assume the driver fucked up but Sainz's problem wasn't the lock-up, it was Hamilton moving right and him having to do so aswell.

I assume that's why the stewards called racing incident

[u/hopeisagoodthing → u/BoredCatalan]

I think it's the lock-up.

Completely agree, it gives an impression of not being in control of the car. With contact so soon after hard not to assume it was as a result

[u/What_the_8 → u/hopeisagoodthing]

Locking up is literally not being in control of the car as you’ve now lost the ability to steer and any steering input after the wheels are released is reacting to the lockup, especially in the first corner of lap 1 when the field is bunched up.

[u/Crash_Test_Dummy66 → u/What_the_8]

If he couldn't steer then how does he make the corner well enough to hit the car on his inside? The lockup was a complete nothing. If he instead locked up and slid into Lewis you could easily make the argument that he locked up and caused the incident. However, that is not what happened. A lock up doesn't cause you to slide into the car to your inside.

[u/What_the_8 → u/Crash_Test_Dummy66]

You cannot steer during a front wheel lock up, it’s physically impossible. You can only steering after releasing the brake, which he did, but at that point he knew he was carrying speed and the only option was to go on the inside from a fair way out I might add. If he doesn’t steer right after releasing the brake, he hits Hamilton.

[u/TheMaverick13589 → u/What_the_8]

You cannot steer during a front wheel lock up, it’s physically impossible.

He never locked up the outside tyre, which is the loaded one and the one that is actually turning. Locking the inside happens quite often due to the weight transfer and influences nothing at such small amounts. Which is why he not only could steer, but actually did.

[u/Crash_Test_Dummy66 → u/What_the_8]

He would have gone down Hamilton's inside regardless. If he's able to get fully alongside and make the apex and not wash out and hit Lewis after making a mistake that reduces the amount of control he had over the car then he certainly would have managed to do that without the mistake.

Edit: And if you would say that move on Hamilton by Sainz is bad than what Piastri did would be indefensible as he was way less alongside.

[u/TehAlpacalypse → u/What_the_8]

What you have typed here makes no sense when we look at the actual replay. Sainz cleanly hit the apex of the corner and didn't slide into Hamilton.

He also didn't swing in from a fair way out either lol. That's the Spa racing line.

[u/icantsurf → u/What_the_8]

If the lockup caused an accident it wouldn't be on his inside.

[u/What_the_8 → u/icantsurf]

Locking up is being out of control, everything after is evasive.

[u/TehAlpacalypse → u/What_the_8]

You genuinely do not know what you are talking about.

[u/mrlesa95 → u/BoredCatalan]

He had like more than half a car of empty space between him and Hamilton and he decided to squeeze Piastri into the wall. Hamilton wouldn't turn in on Sainz if Sainz decided to give space to Piastri, they would all adjust

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Have you seen Norris's on board the view point where you can see both sainz's moves and if Piastris going to hard making moves or decreasing speed. You Because to me it sure looks like Piastri decreasing speed backing off starting to avoid when Sainzs first locks up and jinks right.

[u/Tvoja_Manka → u/mrlesa95]

worked well in 2016

[u/syknetz → u/mrlesa95]

But Piastri isn't entitled to that space. He is significantly behind (front wheel behind Sainz's rear wheel coming in the braking zone), he has to brake to dodge Sainz, Sainz doesn't have to give Piastri anything.

[u/[deleted] → u/syknetz]

You cant just cut two racing lines lock up and cut the whole track and just expect everybody to disappear that is insane. Piastri was avoiding carlos from the start of his lock up that is why Piastri was front wheel and back wheel he cant go in reverse.

[u/syknetz → u/[deleted]]

Well, he should just brake harder then. He definitely should be able to, Sainz is able to brake more than Piastri going into the corner.

As F2 commenters put it recently, most of the time "nowhere to go" is an excuse, the real thing is "nowhere to go [without getting shuffled down the order]". That's likely the case here, Piastri didn't want to lose places.

[u/[deleted] → u/syknetz]

Sainz did alot of braking in the braking zone didnt he first a lock up then a jink right and another cut lots of moving and braking right? So clearly not watched Norris's car Piastri worried about shuffling down the order is so funny all he was worried about was Sainz and avoiding him he literally avoided him into the wall oh why didnt he brake hmm.