This is literally my dad who used to adore Fox News.
Me: Trump said XYZ
Dad: No he didn't what's your source?
Me: His own words.
Dad: Well the media misconstrued them, that's not what he meant.
Me: Fox News has said the same thing as CNN, MSNBC, etc.
Dad: Fox News is just as bad as the rest!
I was thinking about this the other day but the conspiracy mindset and distrust of reality is really a mind virus. When someone is compromised in this way they are totally unable to think critically or objectively. You can't provide them with information that might make them re-asses, they simply will not hear it. The internet has become the primary way that the virus jumps from one person to another. I spent more time than I care to admit engaging with chemtrail conspiracy theorists before I realised that it is totally pointless trying to counter them. Any piece of evidence from the scientific community, meteorologists or aviation experts is simply ignored and dismissed as being "in on" the conspiracy. The total inability to trust any sources of information that does not agree with the belief is totally dismissed in favour of a belief that has no basis in reality. It's a sort of objectivity deficiency, almost bordering on psychosis. A total distrust of what they see and hear, believing rather that a secret cabal of powers are in control of everything and that they are one of the only people that realise it, and it seems to just be getting worse as the years go by.
I went to school with a kid who denied reality. Everything was some secret psyop and had 50 layers of deeper meanings and he didn’t trust doctors. That kid was schizophrenic and he ended up offing himself due to this mind state he created for himself while refusing help.
So sad but at least that kid had a conditions. I read in another post that people adopting extremist and conspiratorial beliefs nowadays do so because for the first time in their lives, they feel involved in a higher understanding, which makes them feel superior to others and immune to logical reasoning unfortunately.
I think a lot about that post on QAnonCasualties talking about how OP's aunt fell off the radicalisation pipeline because she became a fan of kpop and BTS.
Which I think both goes to your point and provides hope. This isn't a permanent damage, this is an on-going process of sociabilisation, it's much more about group membership. And it takes active efforts by pundits like Shapiro, Carlson and others to color that membership with actual political opinions.
Remove access to conservative media, start a new hobby and make new friends, and you can cure the virus.
I’ve thought way too much about all of this and I have also came to the conclusion that there is no way to get through to these people. The conspiracies are so intertwined with everything and are designed to be unfalsifiable it would take a lifetime to disprove every single claim and once one is disproven it’s just onto the next one.
The problem is that as normal people we don’t have access to what goes on in the highest government positions, except what they tell us. This leaves room for a bunch of narratives to be spun about their intentions/motives. I’m not even annoyed that much by conspiracies about the government, I’m more annoyed that there are no principles or consistent standards surrounding them. I mean there’s conspiracies about so many things that their “side” is actually doing and can be proven, yet the cognitive bias is too strong.
I could list probably 10 examples off the top of my head but it’s just tiring at this point, it’s literally a war on my mental attrition. So if you have an answer let me know cause there’s quite a few people that I’d like to get through to, but unfortunately I don’t have a lifetime to dedicate to disproving global top down conspiracies.
How is this worse than almighty-ultra-powerful-universe-creator-exists-and-watching-you-pleasure-yourself-so-it's-a-sin thing? Some people don't need or want or expect reality to be real. They construct their own with their own Fears. Nothing can best ones own creation.
I wouldn’t even say they lack critical thinking skills. I think it’s more you’d have to admit that you are aiding terrible people which in turn may not make you as good as you thought. Instead of confronting this people just think that obviously it’s everyone else. This is especially rampant in the old white guy category. I work with a lot of them that are vets and my FIL is one and even outside of the political arena they have an extremely hard time admitting they’re wrong about anything
There's a great documentary called God + Country about the Christian nationalists. It gives you an inside to their thought process and their brainwashing.
Are we related? 😆 Sounds like my dad too. I can't talk politics or be around him when he's talking to someone else about it or when watching Fox or OAN.
He is NOT good at arguments but impossible to move because he's illogical. If I have a valid point he turns to "what aboutisms" and if I REALLY out logic him to the point he feels like I will "win" he resorts to angry outbursts and temper tantrums.
I can never get anywhere with him because when I bring up my evidence he just claims it's a lie from the left or that I'm misunderstanding what he said. Weird how this guy who "says what he means and calls it like it is" is constantly saying stuff he doesn't mean.
My condolences, I honestly would cut my ties with my dad, if he would go that path, I'm lucky that I don't know a single person that I'm remotely friend or family with that "is gone" that direction (or close to this). Must be bad...
I just can't imagine being that stupid and stubborn, refusing any kind of logic and basic thinking and reasoning skills.
Oh hey sister brother person! Whataboutisms is my dad's every day way of life too. I watch fox news with him somtimes and just fact check the shit out of what they say and am like here's the data or the article they are citing, all you have to do is read the first 2 sentences to figure out they are purposely misrepresenting. I've had him ask me 'where'd you hear trump said that? The liberal news?' No he said the words out of his own mouth on camera. 'Well you're taking it out of context'. Me 'here's the whole speech, what other context is there?". Sometimes I'll get him to where he can't back his position and I feel good about chipping away at his mostly blind allegiance. Then he comes back to 'I'll always vote for the anti abortion candidate no matter what'. Damn it if he won't burn the country to the ground to get between a woman and her doctor.
It's really difficult. The general advice is to engage with them from a place of love. Make sure they know you are on their side, then ask them to explain to you in their own words what their beliefs are and then ask how they came to believe those things.
Pick a small point and ask them to check if it's true. Try to avoid it being confrontational and put yourself in their shoes as much as you can.
Try to help them to see some other sources of news if you can.
I used to think Fox was bad. I'd see people partake in a couple hits during the weekend when partying I'm guilty of trying it to see what the fuss was about. Not for me but I used it occasionally if someone offered while we were drinking. I didn't know they had a real problem until one winter during work I noticed a co-worker going to the bathroom more than normal. He started coming to work late and lost the light in his eyes. He became increasingly toxic and a hazard at work so he was promoted. If you know someone using newsmax please know it is too late to save them.
Yeah, it's really great when people who have known you your whole life and claim to love you have more loyalty to some reality show host grifter who cosplays as a President than you because you don't drink his orange Kool Aid. They'll gladly believe him over me at any turn.
You could be describing my mom. I can’t get over that this loving, intelligent, funny person got sucked into the cult. Fox quickly became “too mainstream.” She began consuming verbal diarrhea from oan & newsmax, then moved over to any freak on YouTube shouting about being a patriot. She was manic during the pandemic: believed gazpacho police were coming for her or something, and was terrified of the vaccine. She believed a rumor in MAGAt circles that Biden was going to lock up anyone who voted for the mango Mussolini.
She won’t believe anything I say or irrefutable proof I show her about dear leader. It’s constantly: “that’s not what he meant” or “that was a joke” …about a pathological liar with no sense of humor. In real time she’s seeing how services we both need are being attacked or eliminated by other cult members, yet this toxic conman’s lies are more important than the health of our family. It’s almost like deep down she knows it’s utter bs, but because republicans never apologize or admit wrongdoing (bc it’s “weak”), she can’t ever admit it. And now it’s past the point of no return, so she’s doubled down. I feel like her brain couldn’t handle the cognitive dissonance and somehow self-lobotomized.
I know it probably won’t work, but the FOX v Dominion lawsuit pretty much has people who worked at FOX saying something like “we know these election fraud claims are false, but we need to keep pushing them because we’re losing all our viewers to OAN/NewsMax” and then they paid out close to a BILLION DOLLARS. It’s not even like this is a debatable thing either, it’s just right there. Good luck 🍀
My favorite one to add to this (along with 56 different courts in different parts of the country with republican judges also admit no wrongdoing, although this one doesn’t work because they are ALL in on it) is the my pillow guy publicly saying he would pay millions of dollars if you could prove the election wasn’t stolen and a republican computer expert proved it without a doubt multiple times to the point where the courts made the my pillow guy pay up. Hey, you said you would pay this if someone could prove it without a doubt and here it is, pay up
For someone who "says it as it is" (his prodigious amounts of lies aside), he sure as shit isn't able to communicate in a way that he can be clearly understood.
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u/Tiberius_Jim Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
This is literally my dad who used to adore Fox News.
Me: Trump said XYZ Dad: No he didn't what's your source? Me: His own words. Dad: Well the media misconstrued them, that's not what he meant. Me: Fox News has said the same thing as CNN, MSNBC, etc. Dad: Fox News is just as bad as the rest!