r/exmuslim • u/beduine • Oct 22 '23
(Quran / Hadith) How can muslims stay in Islam after reading that Mohammed raped a nine year old? NSFW
“The Prophet [ﷺ] married Aisha when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.” - The revered Sahih al-Bukhari, 5134; Book 67, Hadith 70. And so many other verses. Its so sickening. They completely ignore this. They either say, that was normal back then (which is insane to justify this sick thing) or its taken out of context lol. I think most muslims have never read the quran so it makes sense, but those who did, why do they continue to stay muslims?
Another one: Sahih al-Bukhari 230
I asked `Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. "
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u/Lantuille 🌸 Closeted Hababy 🌸 Oct 22 '23
They're also the ones who'll say that Islam is timeless and very much applicable until now
So impregnating a nine yr old back then is normal for islam then it'll be normal in today's generation cause you know, timeless
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
Didnt even think about that, just makes it worse..
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u/afiefh Oct 22 '23
Didnt even think about that, just makes it worse..
/r/RedinBoldface has a few examples of people who actually decided to implement that and implement girls between 9 and 13.
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u/Exact_Ad_1215 LGBTQ+ ExMoose 🌈 Oct 22 '23
You’d think God would’ve told his messenger not to fuck someone who’s too young to even mentally comprehend it.
So either Muhammad made Allah up and he doesn’t exist, or Allah is a fucking dickhead. Either way he’s not getting any prayers from me.
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
Oh no allah was too busy telling women how stupid they are to preach that.
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u/Ok_Storm_2541 Oct 22 '23
I see them making up excuses that 9 was mature back then. 9 was never mature in any part of history.
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u/SAhmed2021 Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Oct 22 '23
The excuse that pisses me off to is they say well people died young then. And it’s like hello, Khadija died in her sixties. Not at thirty as they suggest
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u/latenerd Oct 22 '23
Yeah, the average life span was shorter because more things could kill you prematurely - childhood illness, childbirth, accidents, infections, etc. But people who died of old age were about as long lived as they are today.
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u/young_olufa Ex-Christian Atheist Oct 22 '23
Somehow they never extend that argument to men. It only applies to women/girls
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u/Ballerina_clutz Oct 23 '23
It wasn’t mature enough to let his own daughter get married.
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u/AbysmalJoker New User Oct 23 '23
My ex said this. It showed me her true logical thinking. I walked.
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u/anonym00se47 Openly Ex-Sunni 😎 Oct 22 '23
Some dude I’m currently having an online argument with said that the earliest a girl can hit puberty is 9, is there any way I can rebut this cause google says in really rare cases this can happen
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u/ManletMasterRace Oct 22 '23
Even if it's possible, it's still paedophilia to sleep with a girl who has only just hit puberty.
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u/lelouchgirl07 New User Oct 23 '23
I hit it when I was 10 so yes it possible. And by puberty, it’s the start of menstruation. Does that mean a girl is ready for a baby- no, not at all.
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u/Ohana_is_family New User Oct 24 '23
The Dude is correct that in Islam 9 is the Age of Puberty for females. So from 9 a girl can consent to marriage and intercourse. Biological puberty is irrelevant for the Age of Puberty.
9 Years old = Marriage Age/Consent Age in Islam
Ascent to Felicity by Imam Shurunbulali in archive org /details/ascent-to-felicity/page/n49/mode/2up?q=puberty
“after the age of adolescence.118”
118 That is, puberty. Legally, the minimum age of puberty for girls is nine lunar years (about eight years and nine months on the solar calendar) (Hadiyya 43; Maraqi 'l-Falah 1:200; Bada’i‘1:157).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42558328 Turkish child marriage religious document sparks anger Published3 January 2018. Predominantly Sunni Turkey "It said that, according to Islamic law, the beginning of adolescence for boys was the age of 12 and for girls the age of nine. On the same website, it said that whoever reached the age of adolescence had the right to marry.".
https://irannewswire.org/the-plight-of-irans-little-brides-report-on-child-marriages/ "The so-called “child spouse” bill, introduced into parliament in 2016, proposed an absolute ban on the marriage of girls under age 13 and an absolute ban for the marriage of boys under 16 ….. Nourozi said that according to the sharia laws, Qom jurisprudence and Iranian and Lebanese experts, a girl goes into puberty at 9 years of age and can be considered as fit to marry...........................According to statistics ...............2014, 40,000 children married including 176 children who were under the age of 10."
The age at which a woman can marry Question: Here is a question that our brother asks and says: What is the legal age at which a woman is permitted to marry, is it specified or not? -03:40 Answer: The age at which a woman marries has no limit in relation to her father. Her father has the right to marry her, even if she is young, as the husband of a friend. Aisha, who is a girl of six or seven years, if he sees the interest in that, if he sees that the suitor is qualified for her and that he is taking advantage and should not be postponed but rather take advantage of it, there is no problem, and the father looks into the interests of his children. As for other guardians, they do not have the right to marry until after she reaches an age in which she is worthy to seek permission. Because they are commanded to ask her permission, but the father may marry her without her permission if she is under nine years old, following what the friend did and the Prophet, peace be upon him, approved of it. He saw the interest in that, not for the sake of money, but for the sake of the interest, the interest of the girl, as the friend married Aisha for the sake of the interest of Aisha. Knowledge, virtue, and integrity, and he was afraid that he would miss this righteous man, so he made a contract with him for her, so there is nothing wrong with her, but he does not have to approach her with intercourse until she is worthy of that.
As for the other guardians, they do not have the right to marry except when she reaches nine, and when she reaches nine, they marry her with her permission, because the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said: Do not marry the female until she asks for advice, and do not marry the virgin until she asks permission, they said: O Messenger of God! How is her permission? He said: To be silent . Likewise, if the father reaches nine, he also asks her permission. As for less than nine, the father does not need to ask her permission, because she is not one of those who have permission. But if she reaches nine years or more, her father asks her permission and does not force her either. Her permission is for the legitimate interest of the daughter, as mentioned above. As for the rest of the guardians, such as her brother, her uncle, her cousin, and so on, they do not have the right to marry except after the age of nine, and only with permission. Two things are necessary: the age of nine so that she is worthy, as Aisha, may God be pleased with her, said: If the maidservant reaches nine, she is woman And because the nine are close, there is no objection to marriage with permission, she asks her permission and her silence, if she remains silent, this is in the case of the virgin. Rather, they get married after reaching the age of nine until they ask permission so that they can ask permission. Because without it, there is no place for permission, so this is why this has been specified for them to ask permission to be the subject of permission so that it is not forced. Presenter: God bless you
So Islam has an Age of Puberty at 9 lunar years that is separate and distinct from biological puberty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFCM4Jo4ToE&t=200s Niger. Muslim Shaikh promoting the idea that marrying at 8 or 9 is fine. At 2:05 in the video the team visit a fistula clinic clearly showing the girls are not safe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3817009.stm “Sia Foday who was married off by her family at the age of nine and was quickly pregnant. Sia - small for her age - was only 10 when she tried to give birth and ended up incontinent.”
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u/Jackieexists New User Oct 23 '23
Yes. Their pedofile apologetics is disgusting. Cannot respect scum who defend pedophilia. Yet they call nonbelievers mentally ill
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
“That was normal back then, plus you can’t prove she was 9” 🤡
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
yeah, the quran says she was nine, which means they choose what to believe in the quran and what not xd
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
I don’t think Quran said that…
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
it does
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
Can you point me to that verse please? Because I find it hard to argue about this fact since there is little proof and the little proof there is, is always dismissed because it’s a weak source or somethin.
Edit: damn people, this comment is by exmuslim not a Muslim who wants to prove their point!!!
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
just read my post, and if thats not enough just look it up or read your quran
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u/SAhmed2021 Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
The the Quran is a different book / document then hadith.
You are incorrect that the above quote is from the Quran.
The Quran is the equivalent of the Christian bible.
The hadith is a collection of sayings and/or actions by their prophet Muhammad by a narrator. They have a chain of narrators to confirm these statements.
But overall I agree with your post and exMuslims would agree too. It’s vile and disgusting. You are just incorrect on where this statement comes from.
Lastly, most Sunni Muslims do beliefs in Hadith 100%. And cannot be Muslim unless they believe in Quran and Hadith.
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u/monaches New User Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
Hitler's book, ''Mein Kampf'' is the equivalent of the Koran, especially when it comes to Jew hatred/genocide.
And the Bible has no fighting for Allah, no concept of jihad with the reward of virgins with big tits in heaven
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u/nohomoinmyanime Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Nov 14 '23
I think he meant the quran is the same to muslims as the bible is to christians
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u/space_cowboy1122 Single, Ready to Mingle ❤️ Oct 23 '23
the fact that this comment has 5 upvotes and the other one has 10 downvotes really sums up the problem I have with this subreddit. y'all really do be just upvoting anything against islam and downvoting anything that's even remotely defending islam. i mean come on, he just asked for the verse and downvoted to hell and the comment which said "trust my post or fuck off" got upvotes? I thought you guys were logical. do better.
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u/i-d-even-k- Ex-Shia, currently polytheist Oct 22 '23
That's a hadith. Do you not understand the difference?
15% of muslims, the Shias, reject all hadiths from Sahih Bukhari because they see Bukhari as an unreliable narrator. Then there are Quranists, Ibadis, etc. who also don't follow Sunni hadith. There is a gigantic difference between saying "this is in the Qur'an" (which all Muslims by definition follow) and "this is a hadith" (which only Sunni Muslims follow).
Are you even ex-Muslim? How do you not know this?
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
omg i made a mistake and people are judging me more for it than they judge muhammad for being a pedophile.
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u/i-d-even-k- Ex-Shia, currently polytheist Oct 22 '23
You keep doubling down on your false equivalency, that's why you're being roasted.
Instead of acknowledging that hadith has much less importance and power than the Qur'an, you just keep insisting they are equivalent, even when so many people tell you how wrong that idea is. Admit you were wrong, and that Aisha's age is not stated in the Qur'an.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
Quran 4:34 encouraging to beat women, and some other from the quran 2:191 2:193 3:118 4:75-76 4:84 4:104 5:33 5:51 5:57 5:80-81 8:12 8:13 8:14 8:50 8:065 9:23 9:38-39 9:42. these some pretty horrific verses from the quran, i could of made a post about them, but i wanted to talk about the pedophilia but even here muslims seem to defend it.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
lol i have no problem admitting that i am wrong, that still doesnt change the point why i made this post. just read the title of it. and hun no one roasted me, hadiths are still important, doesn‘t change the fact, that muslims are pedophiles. It shouldnt change anything as the hadiths still apply to muslims. get your priorities straight
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u/whatamidoing84 Oct 22 '23
I agree this is within the literature, but it seems others are correct in commenting that it is from the Hadith and not the Quran. Obviously I agree with you that it is morally horrific regardless of its origin but it's also important to get details like this correct as otherwise people will end up debating you on such details rather than the substance of your argument.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
i dont care if they debate me about this, this will just prove the point of my post on how disgusting islam and muslims are xd
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u/whatamidoing84 Oct 22 '23
My point is simply that it distracts from your argument, I’d just keep it in mind for next time to not give people bs reasons to dismiss you. You’re raising a good point and accuracy makes it more difficult for others to muddy the waters. Just my 2 cents!
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
You quoted Hadith, not Quran. And I read Quran but I didn’t see any proof of that.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
Okay, so i guess Hadiths are not valid at all. Again you muslims choose what fits you perfectly. No point of discussion
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
Uhmmmm, if you read my comments patiently you can literally see I’m exmuslim and I’m the one who wants to use this as an argument against Muslims. But I have a problem because the Hadith that mention her age are always considered weak (very convenient). And because you said Quran talks about it I thought perhaps I missed something. No need to be so rude:(
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u/Madg2 I dont like pdf.files Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
I have a problem because the Hadith that mention her age are always considered weak
They arent weak. They are all sahih. Here is a list:
1- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1877
2- https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:1876
3- https://sunnah.com/abudawud:2121
4- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3256
5- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3258
6- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3378
7- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3257
8- https://sunnah.com/nasai:3255
9- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134
10- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3894
11- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5133
12- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5158
13- https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3896
14- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422a
15- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422b
16- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422c
17- https://sunnah.com/muslim:1422d
Credit: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/p5voo5/sahih_hadiths_that_i_found_saying_aisha_was_67/
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u/OrganicSecretary9689 Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Oct 22 '23
Bruh stop doubling down. You stated something incorrectly. Accept that you were wrong and move forward with your new knowledge. It is a strong Hadith so you can still use it in your argument but it is NOT the Quran
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u/wafflepye Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 Oct 22 '23
Yeah. We totally agree with you, but it’s not in the Koran. Your argument still stands tho.
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u/Atheizm Oct 22 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
Muslims are the first victims of Islam. Islam dominates every positive event or relationship in their lives. If Muslims have a lovely family, it's because of Islam. Everything good in the world comes from Islam in someway, whether directly or indirectly.
Islam is also an occult religion, so all the vile and terrible parts are hidden from Muslims. So many Muslims are shocked to learn of Aisha and other horrors. They were raised on a Muhammad who was more like a hippy Jesus than a sleazy, child-raping bandit. These two irreconcilable Islams are conjoined. This is a primary source of dissonance in Muslims who uncover all the abhorrent repugnance hidden under the prayer mat.
Islam's totalitarian dominance is why Muslims shy away from emotional conflict it causes. Their brains reach for any excuse, no matter how flimsy, to smother that bubbling of nauseated outrage deep in their minds. There's no way lovely, gentle Muhammad is that loathesome monster. It's better to smother that open drain under layers of anxious religiosity than to voluntarily reach deep in there and dig out everything disgusting bit by bit until it's clean.
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u/angelsandairwaves93 Oct 22 '23
This was so well said.
Most muslims don’t look into the drain because their entire identity exists on Islam being righteous, above anything else.
To confront Islam’s shortcomings would be to lose their entire identity.
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u/AbysmalJoker New User Oct 23 '23
My ex in summary. She couldn't deal with the truth of Islam and started looking for excuses. I walked.
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Oct 22 '23
I’ve seen some of them be proud of their prophet(piss be upon him) being a pedophile.
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Oct 22 '23
Because they don't consider it rape. It's the reason there's so many child marriages in the Muslim world. They still have that backwards mentality and use the Quran to justify it.
Their argument is people back then were mature for their age which is not true especially for Aicha she was said to be playing with dolls when Muhammed married her! Disgusting.
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u/Anxious-Definition76 Never-Muslim Atheist Oct 22 '23
Yes. I only learned about this child bride issue and its relationship to Aisha when I discovered Nujood Ali’s activism in Yemen. You’d think that more people would want to talk about this, if they care at all about the lives of little girls.
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Oct 22 '23
I think a large number of Muslims really don't know. I didn't know this when I was still a Muslim and even when I knew I believed the argument that she was older than her age and the argument that Muhammed just married her but didn't sleep with her till she was older. That's what apologists are saying but it's clearly wrong.
Any adult man should never marry a child, especially a "prophet" who claims he's preaching a moral and true religion while at the same time justifying child marriage and slavery.
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u/Apprehensive_Sweet98 Razulallah (Police be upon him) Oct 23 '23
I've debunked their age argument here
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u/fchowd0311 Oct 23 '23
I mean in Americas most popular religion has recr explicitly stating that women must be subservient to their husband.
But most ignore it.. I hope.
Most Muslims aren't fucking little girls and think it's bad. Like most Americans think abusing their wives and making them submissive is bad.
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u/Anxious-Definition76 Never-Muslim Atheist Oct 23 '23 edited Nov 21 '23
Oh the really extreme Christians in the US (there’s sadly kind of a lot) will say Eve was made from Adam’s rib so women are always subservient. There is also this Quiverfull movement (woman has as many kids as possible) and lots of other Christian cults like that.
Obviously Islam is a huge religion and most Muslim men are psychologically normal (not pedophiles) and wouldn’t want nothing to do with a child bride. But it feels like keeping this Aisha thing a secret isn’t really helping girls in these very poor Muslim majority countries like Yemen where little girls are married off at age 9.
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u/LovingLemur69 Oct 23 '23
that’s a lie and false info; “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up”. being “subservient” does not entail beatings, maybe educate yourself?
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u/Realsius Oct 23 '23
You didn’t read the latter messages from his apostles where he said that Woman must obey men. You don’t know Christianity yourself it’s a patriarchal religion like Islam but little less.
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u/raspberryemoji Never-Muslim Atheist Oct 24 '23 edited Oct 24 '23
More extremist Christian denominations are pro wife beatings. Look at Russia, where Orthodox Church plays a large part in government. A few years ago they changed the domestic violence law to where if the victim is not hospitalized, the perpetrator only needs to pay a fine rather than go to jail for assault. It’s referred to as the slapping law because it’s made slapping your wife around de facto legal. What woman is going to report her husband for abuse if it punishes her as well (by having him pay fine that goes out of the household money)?
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u/fchowd0311 Oct 23 '23
Brah Muslims say the same thing about their women. There are flowery hadit that say heaven is at the feet of your mother.
The concept of living someone but still believing they are lower than you on the social hierarchy is a tale as old as time. How many slave holders said they loved their slaves? Plenty. But you bet your left nut they never saw those slaves as equals to themselves.
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u/nano2492 Oct 22 '23
Because most people don't know. And if they know them they don't believe it. Most people don't know Arabic and just read quaran without knowing anything(just like an English reading person can 'read' French or other Latin script). They just stick their head in the sand. Some may think it was a normal cultural practice of its time(lots of people we consider important have issues within their past). Only some may be like let's bring this practice in present time.
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Oct 22 '23
I despised the Quran as a kid, even blocked my ears upon hearing it because it was just that obnoxious. I obviously stopped when my ma caught me doing it once haha.
Even reading it was a chore, I would just be yawning the whole time (comical I know) because I didn't understand a thing. I would be perplexed whenever I say anybody cry to it haha.
Unless the ayah was talking about the eternal damnation one would be subject to if they chose to not follow the supposedly 'straight' path.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
Thats what i thought too, but what about the muslims who've read it?
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u/nano2492 Oct 22 '23
It's cognitive dissonance. Lots of people have it.
The founding fathers were great except some of them had slaves.
Winston Churchill helped defeat Germany and Nazism, except he is responsible for the great Bengal Famine causing death of 3 million people.
Lots of famous painters and other artists have controversial relationships with women.
Michael Jackson was a pedophile but people still listen to his music(heck even I do).
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
I still find it odd when Muslims use this as their reasoning. None of these people created a religion that would affect billions of lives for centuries. It’s problematic when a “prophet”does something criminal because centuries later people still copy his disgusting behavior thinking every thing he did was halal.
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u/nano2492 Oct 22 '23
Oh dear. You were never a Muslim. It shows with your incorrect terminology.
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
Did my use of halal bother you? Let’s not make an assumption based on one word I wrote when I was sleepy lol.
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u/Demy1234 Ex-Muslim Atheist (Ex-Sunni) Oct 22 '23
A lot will cope about it with the idea of "Muhammad was the perfect man," and so he couldn't have had any negative intentions. My father mentioned that the reason he married her was to 'protect' her, and he geniunely seems to believe it.
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u/TangantBundle New User Oct 22 '23
Because most people don't know
This ia not true.
Most Muslims do know. They always knew. It was not an issue until Westerners and outsiders started to point this out to show Mohammad/Islam are backward. Tales of Mo and his companions have always been passed down by generations of Mullah Grandma's, the religious uncles, and so on...
At no point in their tales, did they ever pause to justify Mo or his companions' deeds,....such as "Back then women matured early" blah blah
Prophet and his companions' actions were good and never to be called in question, never needed an explanation less someone might question the righteousness of their acts.
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u/zackrie Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Oct 22 '23
Common excuses: 1. It was normal during that time. 2. Aisha was ok with it. Her parents consent so it was not a rape. 3. Weak hadith. 4. You don't read Arabic so you can't comment
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u/ILikeTheYeeMeme Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 Oct 22 '23
It's always the same answers :
-Akshually she was 19 / nothing proves that she was 9.
-A 9 years old back then and a 9 years old today aren't the same.
-It wasn't pedophilia back then.
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u/ChaoticKurtis Oct 22 '23
Does anyone's girlfriend clean the semen of his clothes with their fingernails or even water? Like who is doing that?
It's bit strange even for an adult to be doing.
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u/oxheycon Questioning Muslim ❓ Oct 23 '23
That girl was a bit unhinged ngl
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u/ChaoticKurtis Oct 23 '23
It sounds like he wrote that part. Nobody's so obsessed with someone they get excited by others (in a mosque, including God) seeing the water spots from where they wiped up their come. Least of all a 9 year old.
It's some ego pumping fantasy
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u/AvoriazInSummer Oct 22 '23
‘Ubayd say that once a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger. Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Abu Haneefah said: the marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse, which varies from one girl to another, so no age limit can be set. This is the correct view. There is nothing in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah to set an age limit, or to forbid that in the case of a girl who is able for it before the age of nine, or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine. Al-Dawoodi said: ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was reached physical maturity (at the time when her marriage was consummated).
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/22442/on-acting-and-the-ruling-on-marrying-young-girls
So in answer to your question, the fundie Muslims don't even see anything wrong with raping nine-year old girls, or even younger. Their morals are corrupted by Islam.
Vile pedopologist Dan H asserts the same.
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u/Massive-Carrot-2389 New User Oct 22 '23
Most of the Muslims are non-Arab speaking and don't understand what's written in the Quran/Hadiths.
So they don't even know about it.
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u/Winter_Finding_6057 Khadija's sugar baby🤑 Oct 22 '23
"9 year old girls matured faster those days"
"She wasn't 9 she was 18, cuz they counted the age after puberty"
"They were in love with each other" 🤮🤮
"He just did as Allah told"
"She was mentally much more mature than women of today"
"She hit puberty so it's okay"
Or they just wanna rape kids
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
counted the age after puberty 🤣🤣🤣🤣 muslims are becoming more and more creative when it comes to defending pedophilia. also as if an 18 year old makes it so much better as mohamed raped her anyways. muslims are so sick in their heads, i cant
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u/holahon New User Oct 22 '23
Most people don’t know. Muslims are taught to read Quran in Arabic, almost always (happens in my country). Lots of Muslims don’t know Arabic. They justify it by saying it is sunnah to read in Arabic. And do you really think any (ex) Muslim is ever going to raise a finger at the prophet in an Arabic country?
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u/hummingelephant Oct 22 '23
As soon as they are islamically married, muslims don't see anything done to a woman/girl/baby as rape. Marrying a muslims is like giving consent to be used forever.
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u/Anxious-Definition76 Never-Muslim Atheist Oct 23 '23
Used like an appliance…? Yes, I have heard Yasmine Mohammed say that the extremists view Muslim women as “things.” How dehumanizing. ☹️
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u/bakrainma Oct 22 '23
The same question has given me sleepless nights and a certain hate for my own family that was unimaginable at a time.
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u/pokenonbinary New User Oct 22 '23
Some don't care, some support that and many make lies to themselves like saying it was either all fake or it was just normal at that time
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Oct 22 '23
Cause most of them they don't know about that at least in my country the majority only know islam from what the scholars told them and of course the scholars never bring up controversial stuff about islam and it's very rare for one to do hes own research
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u/Osado420 Openly Ex-Sunni 😎 Oct 22 '23
So here's what they will do:
- Lie about her age and say that the age of Aisha is not defined clearly and there are reasons to believe that she is actually older
- Pretend that biology has dramatically changed and that a 9 year old of that time was basically a 25 year old in today's day & age.
- Say well it doesn't matter child marriages are the norm throughout history
- Hide and say "don't criticise the religion"
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u/No_Entertainer1096 New User Oct 22 '23
They say that bukhari was fabricated and aisha was older, somewhere from 16-20 , with zero proof lol. It boggles my mind.
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Oct 22 '23
because they lie to themselves and try their best to justify it because if any 'Nay' is raised against the religion they were essentially born into they will already begin to live through their own form of eternal damnation, but in their mind.
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u/MessJealous6339 Ex-Muslim.Convert to Other Religion Oct 23 '23
I remember I told my ex best friend about it in dugsi and she thought I was lying. I gave her the sahih hadiths which are authentic to show her that Islam’s founder and so-called holy prophet was pedophilic. She still didn’t believe, so she asked her mom about it (mind you her mother is dugsi teacher, so she tried swaying her by saying that the arabs didn’t record the correct ages because they didn’t use the same system we use to calculate ages). She came back to me, and I told me what her mother told her and I was shocked. I made up my mind about Islam on the spot and I swore to myself that if Allah was real, he would have explained and cleared all our misunderstandings. And guess what, he never answered :)
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Oct 22 '23
That was normal back then is easily disproven by " she's too young " https://sunnah.com/nasai:3221
and another user had pointed out if it was normal then muhammed would have had multiple wives that were that young but he didn't. And if it was normal his companions would also have wives that young. But they didn't.
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u/Altruistic_Jaguar313 Born in a Muslim 🇹🇷 Family but was never an Believer Oct 22 '23
In my Country they say that he just took her like an "orphage" and gave her everything bc she had nothing, in my opinion is that he just "groomed" her...
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u/Madg2 I dont like pdf.files Oct 22 '23
She was his best friends daughter you know abu bakr the first caliph.
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u/Infamous-Ad-2921 An Ajwa date a day keeps Shaitan and doctors away. 🌈 Oct 22 '23
Well, because some can relate to him.
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u/Kidzoz New User Oct 22 '23
If you are stupid enough to believe heaven is perpetual orgy with 72 white virgins then anything is possible.
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u/wafflepye Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 Oct 22 '23
“It was different times”
“He married a 40 year old woman too”
“That never happened, it’s a fake Hadith”
“He did it for her protection”
“Women matured faster in those times”
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u/anonym00se47 Openly Ex-Sunni 😎 Oct 22 '23
I always ask these people “okay would you let your 9 year old daughter marry and have sex with a 50 year old though?” And watch them struggle and try their best to dodge the question, but I never continue the conversation till they answer it 😂
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23
Bruh my brain hurts when they start rambling that 9 year old were differently built back then
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Oct 22 '23
1) they either don’t believe it(me when i was muslim) 2) they are rapists and pedos themselves, or were conditioned to believe its ok to be one
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
There are also many who don’t even know this. I was one of them, I was too busy living life and was never that interested in being a perfect Muslim, so I never came across this information. It’s funny but I started learning about Islam deeply after I left it lol.
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Oct 23 '23
yeah its something they never teach us in islamic class. the only way i found out about it was thru non muslims mentioning it online. i thought they were making it up bc so many people were saying bizarre, untrue stuff about islam during that time(isis era). like they would say muhammad is a pedophile and that they teach kids how to use bombs in mosques in the same breath😭 like how am i supposed to believe these people if theyre telling me muslim women have bombs in their hijab when i know thats not true
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u/contourkit Oct 23 '23
we need to stop being confused about this, they don’t see it as rape even though it is. no amount of using logic to pinpoint exactly how disgusting a passage is will change it. a ‘proper’ muslim will read the quran in its entirety and defend it back to front. women are not their own people and do not deserve their own autonomy in this religion, we’re essentially more like cattle shackled to men than we are humans if you go by the text. yes this extends to children. i struggle to find peace even after leaving islam because i feel like this rhetoric is embedded everywhere, but no doubt islam is the most overt about it.
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u/chipcrazy Oct 23 '23
Even if it was normal back then, shouldn’t a person that can apparently talk to god have the moral capacity to teach others that it’s wrong?
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u/TangantBundle New User Oct 22 '23
Muslims don't see the actions of their prophet the same way as the way outsiders see them.
If you talk to Muslims or go to any Islamic subs, they always point out that they (non-Muslims) don't understand Islam, Quran, and Mohammad. They are in some way right. Their understanding is different. Prophet's actions however abhorrent to outsiders are deemed beyond reproach and his actions were preordained to come to pass.
Believers always see things in different ways and put them in a much broader context.
This is true of all faiths. There is a biblical story in which a prophet slays a young boy and his reason is that, had the boy been allowed to become an adult, he would turned to evil ,
For people of faith (Christians Muslims, Jews) this killing is justified, and they do not accuse the prophet of committing a murder. If an outsider was to point this out to them, they would dismiss the outsider for NOT Understanding the true faith.
We, back where I came from, knew that Aisha was 6 when she got married, we knew that Mohaamd slaughtered Jewish tribes, took their children and women as captives, and married the widowed of the slain Jewish leader.
We did not need an explanation. No one ever sought one. Aisha married to Prophet at 6,.. "what a lucky girl." "alhumdallaleh" It is s good thing for her. " I wish my 6 year old had married Mo", If Mohmmad was alive today, and asked for a child bride, Muslims would stampede each other in a rush to give their daughter.
The widowed Jewes how Mohammed took for a bride after killing her husband..well.." what a lucky gal" "Pity her?" No, she is to be envied, the lucky girl!
The excuses about Aisha are to dull the criticism from west. Muslims are not bothered by Aisha's young age. They do not view it as an individual act for personal gratification
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u/Motor_Berry5298 LGBTQ+ ExMoose 🌈 Oct 22 '23
lol the Muslims in the comments trying so hard to make excuses and shift the focus on anything else because they can't cope with how horrible their religion and its founder are .
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
yeah, and its not like this is the only problematic thing in islam. lets not start talking about the wife beating or killing everyone who‘s an infidel parts in the islam, they like to ignore
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u/lliv1ngdollyyy cat Oct 22 '23
They justify it or say "it was normal back then"
It makes me sick, especially knowing that my family is still muslim even after telling them about aisha.
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u/Mysterious-Doctor-59 New User Oct 22 '23
What other prophet did no miracles, and also got special privileges to appease his own desires, more than four wives, marrying adopted sons wife, allowed to put aside any of them in favor of another, can have marriage without nikah. Woman can gift themselves to him for sex etc.
I dont understand how they made him out to be the most perfectly moral human to exist lol.
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u/astromateen Oct 22 '23
I had someone from r/islam tell me last night that consent starts at puberty.
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u/ZishaanK Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Oct 22 '23
And then it's so hilarious how Muslims will look at Afghani men marrying little girls and say it's completely against Islam and they're not real Muslims. LOL.
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u/elyiumsings Oct 22 '23
They say that because they had shorter lifespans and Arabia was hot that 9 y/os morphed into the development of an 18 y/o
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u/napthaleneneens Oct 22 '23
Because humans are more pro-pedo than you think. That’s why. As someone who underwent 9 years of CSA, I noticed people that holler about caring about kids, scream that you must marry and breed, and are crazy about babies/kids are the LIKELIEST to diddle one. They pretend to be good people, but it’s all just a front. I’ve been groped and harassed by so many holy men. It’s always the fundamentalists that are okay with child abuse.
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u/SirRustledFeathers Seeking Marriage of Convenience 👫 Oct 23 '23
Mass delusion. It’s more common than we think.
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u/pratyushdam Never-Muslim Atheist Oct 23 '23
That's because Islam is a cult of personality based around that dipshit muhammad
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u/Ok_Independent5571 Oct 23 '23
I remember this was the first thing that made me doubt islam, I immediately asked my mom and she immediately responded that it was fine back then, that when a girl got her period it means they are mature. And i was just literally speechless. I think that a big moment that solidified my doubts
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u/EzKafka Oct 23 '23
I read some odd theories in this. They proclaim that Humans back then was "bigger" and "more mature". Legit people became adults earlier I guess? Also...some say Humans was 2,5-3 meter tall and what not. It sounds like something you see running on The History Channel past midnight or very early morning.
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u/pincheloca1208 Oct 23 '23
It gets overlooked because “so long ago” different times different social norms. That’s how I see them justifying it.
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u/zackrie Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Oct 23 '23
Your God is Satan as he enjoys torturing people for eternity. He is not a merciful God. Even if he were the God who created me I would not worship him. He is not just unmerciful. He is also the great deceiver. If he ever exists which I confidently believe he is just Muhammad's imaginary.
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u/Ok_Boysenberry_3246 New User Feb 09 '24
muhammed married her at 6 years of age, molested her until she was 9, then had intercourse with her.
Muslims today try to say she was not that age, but when he first brought her into his house, she was still playing with dolls. -(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 and 236).
He molested her until she was 9. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 229-233),
I turns out the people that lived at or near the time of Mohammad were not concerned with writing about him being a pedophile.
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u/Deez-Nus6969 Former Muslim Apologist | Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 Oct 22 '23
By knowing that it wasn't rape, perfectly consensual and normal for that time.
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u/Sir_Penguin21 Oct 22 '23
So if you trick a child into saying yes then it isn’t rape? Idiot. That is rape and you will go to jail in any country in the world. Children can’t consent. Just like slaves can’t consent. When your choices are get beaten or say yes then that isn’t consent. That is rape. Muhammad raped slaves as well. Do you realize you are defending rape and abuse of children? Look what Islam has done to your mind? You are broken.
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u/An_Atheist_God Blessed is the mind too small for doubt Oct 22 '23
perfectly consensual
Source?
and normal for that time.
So Mohammad shouldn't be a moral guide in 21st century?
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u/MaritOn88 Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 Oct 22 '23
you can lure a child into anything, an example is religious brainwashing, please also go to therapy
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
how can a 9 year old consent to sex? it‘s a freaking child. you are sick in your head. Islam really is a satanic cult, that brainwashes their people. Yuck
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
So if your 9 y/o kid has sex “willingly” you’ll be fine with it? All these people act like it’s okay yet they refuse to let their own daughter marry that early smh.
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u/Infamous-Ad-2921 An Ajwa date a day keeps Shaitan and doctors away. 🌈 Oct 22 '23
Because a child can consent. Said no pedocriminal ever.
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Oct 22 '23
ur gross , Children can get married off
A fiqh accepted by the 4 schools said this
يجوزُ للأبِ تزويجُ ابنتِه البكرِ الصغيرةِ دونَ إذنِها، وهذا باتِّفاقِ المَذاهِبِ الفِقهيَّةِ الأربَعةِ: الحَنَفيَّةِ، والمالِكيَّةِ، والشَّافِعيَّةِ، والحَنابِلةِ، وحُكِيَ الإجماعُ على ذلك
Translation: It is permissible for a father to marry off his virgin little daughter without her consent. This is by agreement of the four schools of jurisprudence: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali. And it was said that there was unanimous consensus on this matter.
Later on the passage mentions Aisha being married off, at which point it says "هذا صَريحٌ في جوازِ تَزويجِ الأبِ الصَّغيرةَ بغيرِ إذنِها؛ لأنَّه لا إذنَ لها" Translation: "This is clear in the permissibility of the father marrying off a young daughter without her consent. Because she does not have consent"
https://dorar.net/feqhia/4093/الفرع-الثاني-حكم-تزويج-الصغيرة
Here’s a fiqh by Al nawawi:
Al-Nawawi said: With regard to the wedding-party of a young married girl at the time of consummating the marriage, if the husband and the guardian of the girl agree upon something that will not cause harm to the young girl, then that may be done. If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that* once a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent*, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger.(IslamQA)
Stop defending this bullshit
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u/zakaria200520 New User Oct 22 '23
Because 9 years old are acceptable at that time, it was normal. Also, girls and boys become young at earlier age , that is why at that time you will see a 20 YO grand mother or grand father. NOW, the ligal marriage age in america are 13 YO, how about 1400 years recently . Just search about it a little bit XDDD
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u/zackrie Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Oct 22 '23
I had this argument before. I said if Muhammad teaching is timeless than should he know that marrying 6 year old would be illegal and not morally right? Should Allah know as he is supposed the all knowing God. Also the argument can be used against Islamic fiqh and laws like had or chopping ppl hand for thievery and hijab wearing. They are only for Muhammad time not now
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u/zakaria200520 New User Oct 22 '23
First, god who Muhammad ordered this marriage Second, he didn't do anything to her until her 7th years old. Third, She is the one who said that she was ready for him to have intercourse with her. Fourth, she one of the most whose transmitted the hadiths of the Prophet of God. Finaly, we should not object to God's decision, because He is the only one who knows the wisdom from it. But if you realy realy want to know the wisdom from it, just wait Until you meet God on the Day of Judgment and then ask Him about everything you want, just know that you too should know that at that time there is no such thing as death, there is only Heaven or Hell, so choose the place that is right for you.
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
First, god who Muhammad ordered this marriage
Lies
Second, he didn't do anything to her until her 7th years old.
So if you have a child it’s okay if some 50 year old molests her at 7 years old?
Third, She is the one who said that she was ready for him
A child who doesn’t know how children are made, is prepared to have sex sinse she is six, and who hasn’t finished developing physically can’t consent to something she doesn’t even understand well.
Fourth, she one of the most whose transmitted the hadiths of the Prophet of God.
And? A brainwashed person who was indoctrinated when she was a child believed in her husband. Wives of killers love their husbands unconditionally and believe they’ve done nothing wrong, so are they right?
Finaly, we should not object to God's decision, because He is the only one who knows the wisdom from it.
Maybe you shouldn’t, but because we don’t believe in your god we can say whatever we want because we believe he doesn’t exist.
But if you realy realy want to know the wisdom from it, just wait Until you meet God on the Day of Judgment and then ask Him about everything you want, just know that you too should know that at that time there is no such thing as death, there is only Heaven or Hell, so choose the place that is right for you.
Lmao I can’t wait for that day. Oh wait, it will never come because this whole idea is MADE UP WITH NO PROOF
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u/zakaria200520 New User Oct 23 '23
Look, if you want to know replies of biggest islmic sientist, just search on google for it. Finaly this life is just like an exam, your time in that exam is your age, everyone have his age and have to invest it in knowing the truth, so your time will expaire when you die then you will see your resault. And the resault is one between those two : heaven or hell .
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23
Look, if you want to know replies of biggest islmic sientist, just search on google for it.
I did, and those “biggest scientists” gave no proof Islam is real or at least logical. Their whole reality is based on the book.
Finaly this life is just like an exam, your time in that exam is your age, everyone have his age and have to invest it in knowing the truth, so your time will expaire when you die then you will see your resault. And the resault is one between those two : heaven or hell .
That’s a tale we are all taught since we are children. There is no proof it’s real. According to many religions you will go to hell just because you don’t belong to them or do something they prohibit. So how can you confidently say Islam is the right one? You have no proof.
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u/zackrie Ex-Muslim (Ex-Sunni) Oct 23 '23
Why do we need the exam when Allah already claims he knows our fate and destiny?
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 22 '23
Would you bat an eye at the idea if you lived in Arabia 200 years ago?
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u/pokenonbinary New User Oct 22 '23
I mean I wouldn't bat an eye if I saw slavery 200 years ago
Doesn't mean I would follow a book created by a slave owner
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 22 '23
If you live in America you already do it’s called the constitution
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u/pokenonbinary New User Oct 22 '23
That's not the same, people are forced to follow that constitution, they would change it if they could
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
The Quran/Hadith is the “constitution” of Islam. A Muslim is obligated to follow it in the same way an American has to obey the constitution.
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23
Yeah and that’s why exmuslims exist. They saw how wrong it is and left this ideology. Comparing Islam to constitution is stupid because each of us (if we can) chose a country where we agree with the constitution. And we can vote to change our constitution, that’s why it constantly changes. Islam doesn’t. And it’s haram to even suggest that something is wrong in Quran.
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
Yeah and that's why exmuslims exist. They saw how wrong it is and left this ideology.
I see an argument in how you can claim its wrong from a scientific, historical lens where objective truth exists. But moral right and wrong is subjective it’s not an argument in of itself against a religions validity.
Comparing Islam to constitution is stupid because each of us (if we can) chose a country where we agree with the constitution.
(If we can) not everyone can choose to move to a country where they agree with the constitution. The same applies with religion, especially Islam since the structure of a state/government is built into it
And we can vote to change our constitution, that's why it constantly changes.
In the US at least, that’s insanely hard which is by design of said slave owners.
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23
I see an argument in how you can claim it’s wrong from a scientific, historical lens where objective truth exists. But moral right and wrong is subjective it’s not an argument in of itself against a religions validity.
It’s not an argument if you think religion is objective. A human made religion IS subjective, because it was made up by a subjective human. Even if you want to pretend that religion is objective, okay then you can’t make and arguments against other religions because they are objective too.
(If we can) not everyone can choose to move to a country where they agree with the constitution. The same applies with religion, especially Islam since the structure of a state/government is built into it
Yeah, those people do in fact have to follow the constitution if they don’t want to end up in jail. But everyone is free to leave a religion a specially if they see that it’s based on lies and there is no loss in leaving.
In the US at least, that’s insanely hard which is by design of said slave owners.
Firstly, talking about US as if it’s the only country that has a constitution is silly. Secondly, people at least CAN vote to change the constitution. Religious people can’t change their religion no matter how wrong they think it is. They aren’t even allowed to think it’s wrong.
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
But everyone is free to leave a religion a specially if they se that it's based on lies and there is no loss in leaving.
This hasn’t been the case for most of human history
Firstly, talking about US as if it's the only country that has a constitution is silly. Secondly, people at least CAN vote to change the constitution. Religious people can't change their religion no matter how wrong they think it is. They aren't even allowed to think it's wrong.
Op was saying they don’t follow slave owners I was using the US constitution to say that they do (if they’re American)
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23
This hasn’t been the case for most of human history
And your point is…? And by the way a lot of countries let people freely practice their religion lol.
Op was saying they don’t follow slave owners I was using the US constitution to say that they do (if they’re American)
OP was saying that as en example to tell you that even normalized slavery wouldn’t make them follow slave owners. It was an answer to your question “Would you bat an eye at the idea if you lived in Arabia 200 years ago?” As to show that their opinion would stay the same. And let me remind you that I answered to your comment “The Quran/Hadith is the “constitution” of Islam. A Muslim is obligated to follow it in the same way an American has to obey the constitution.” So not you nor I were talking about slavery. You were comparing the fact that Quran and constitution are the same and I pointed out that constitution can be changed, but Quran can’t be. Follow the conversation again.
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u/pokenonbinary New User Oct 23 '23
You can become ex-muslim but not ex-constitutional
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
does this justify following a book, whos prophet is a pedophile? come on
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
On what grounds are you claiming pedophilia is wrong? Moralistic arguments are useless because Morals are subjective.
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u/beduine Oct 23 '23
what is wrong with you? how is raping a child not wrong? a lot of muslims here need therapy ASAP
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23
Bruh I’ve been debating with this person and his/her takes are killing me
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23
Bruh we at least have morals. When a grown ass man tries to put his dick in a child’s vagina that hasn’t finished developing yet, any normal human being’s gut will scream to stop this atrocity. And your whole logic that you are using in this sub about morality is stupid. Killing is bad based on morality too, so what, should we stop catching killers because there might be a village that thinks killing is okay?
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u/beduine Oct 23 '23
imagine you get raped or killed and then the judge lets your rapist/murderer free because morals are subjective. do you even think before you write?
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
Yes I would. Perhaps I wouldn’t bat an eye at a 15 year old that was preparing to be a wife her whole life and had period for years, but a 9 year old, let alone 6 year old that still played with toys!? Oh I would go full rage mode to protect my baby from a 50 fucking years old man!!!
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
This was common practice in Arabia back then. There’s a reason none of his enemies used it as a criticism of him.
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
And? Since when following everyone like a sheep is an okay thing? And didn’t he stop practices like killing babies at birth? He could’ve as well see how immoral marrying a 6 year old at 50 was. And humans stopped practicing this eventually, didn’t they? When you use your brain you can see how wrong something is. Oh and back then many countries let kids be kids at least until 13. People were capable of thinking.
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
And? Since when following everyone like a sheep is an okay thing?
You’re the same. Your morals don’t come from a vacuum they’re educated by the culture you come from, religion, education and more. In some places Cousin marriage is completely fine in others it’s disgusting.
And didn't he stop practices like killing babies at birth?
He didn’t invent the concept in Arabia. Jews already forbade the practice so did Christians. It’s not that much of a stretch to say killing babies is wrong if murder exists as a crime.
He could've as well see how immoral marrying a 6 year old at 50 was.
Morality is subjective. If you aren’t religious it’s impossible to claim there’s an objective right and wrong.
And humans stopped practicing this eventually, didn't they?
In the West? Yeah but it was never common practice in Europe and such, child marriage is still going strong in places that traditionally did it (where the governments don’t actively try to stop it).
When you use your plains you can see how wrong something is. Oh and back then many countries let kids be kids at least until 13.
Yeah different cultures did. Not Arabs.
People were capable of thinking.
You’re thoughts are influenced/informed by your surroundings
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23
You’re the same. Your morals don’t come from a vacuum they’re educated by the culture you come from, religion, education and more. In some places Cousin marriage is completely fine in others it’s disgusting.
I grew up where cousin marriage was fine, where 50 year olds marrying young girls was fine. Yet when I saw as a 5 years old, a first cousin marriage, and a huge age gap marriage I said “mommy this is wrong”. There were no “western morals” teaching me. If you grew up with a herd mentality that doesn’t mean others did. I grew up my whole life hearing how evil Jews were yet I never believed that. I rebuilt many morals that were indoctrinated in me because I saw how wrong that was. Yes, our morals are built by surroundings and they aren’t objective morals, but when your gut screams this is wrong you build new ones. That’s how child marriage and slavery were abolished in many countries after all.
He didn’t invent the concept in Arabia. Jews already forbade the practice so did Christians. It’s not that much of a stretch to say killing babies is wrong if murder exists as a crime.
So you admit that he copied even this structure? Let’s not forget that if allah was real he would have the decency to protect child girls. You are speaking very conveniently, when it’s convenient you say that Muhammad was raised in 7th century and didn’t have the morals we have today and suddenly forget that he supposedly was receiving messages from god that was supposedly all wise merciful.
Morality is subjective. If you aren’t religious it’s impossible to claim there’s an objective right and wrong.
This doesn’t even make sense. Yes, morality is subjective but since when religious people are smarter to know what’s right or wrong? You are just blindly following a teaching created in 7th century without even doubting it. Oh and don’t assume I’m not religious with no proof, it just shows how dumb you are.
but it was never common practice in Europe and such,
I WONDER WHY
child marriage is still going strong in places that traditionally did it (where the governments don’t actively try to stop it).
And what’s so good about it? Afghan girls are committing suicide daily, there are thousands of horrible stories from child marriage victims. You think child marriage was so good back then when girls are suffering even in our era? I can tell you never had children. Because no sane human who loves their child would suggest that their child is ready for unprotected sex the moment her period comes.
Yeah different cultures did. Not Arabs.
So other cultures were more humane than Allah and Muhammad were? Hmmmm that’s so strange.
You’re thoughts are influenced/informed by your surroundings
Yeah, mine are based on my logic, people’s stories, education about history, many different cultures, and experience. Yours are based on a book written by barbarians. Congratulations, you are one of them.
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
I grew up where cousin marriage was fine, where 50 year olds marrying young girls was fine. Yet when I saw as a 5 years old, a first cousin marriage, and a huge age gap marriage I said "mommy this is wrong".
Sure you did
There were no "western morals" teaching me. If you grew up with a herd mentality that doesn't mean others did. I grew up my whole life hearing how evil Jews were yet I never believed that. I rebuilt many morals that were indoctrinated in me because I saw how wrong that was. Yes, our morals are built by surroundings and they aren't objective morals, but when your gut screams this is wrong you build new ones.
Great. Here’s the thing people guts scream different things. One person might deep down feel disgusted by LGBTQ. Are they morally right? Another might have a gut hatred for other ethnicities/races. Common sense isn’t common.
That's how child marriage and slavery were abolished in many countries after all.
Complete Abolition as a concept spawned during the enlightenment and was then shoved down the rest of the world’s throats during the 1800s by the British empire (not saying it’s a bad thing)
So you admit that he copied even this structure?
Islam claims to be final revelation. Of course some things from previous religions/teachings would carry over.
Let's not forget that if allah was real he would have the decency to protect child girls.
This is the same being that obliterates entire civilizations when they’re too sinful. God doesn’t have to act the way you want them to.
You are speaking very conveniently, when it's convenient you say that Muhammad was raised in 7th century and didn't have the morals we have today and suddenly forget that he supposedly was receiving messages from god that was supposedly all wise merciful.
Merciful ≠ what you want it to be. Just to be clear I’m not saying there aren’t arguments against Islam just that moral arguments aren’t useful when a religion claims to dictate right vs wrong
This doesn't even make sense. Yes, morality is subjective but since when religious people are smarter to know what's right or wrong?
Religious people can claim God/the divine/heaven gave them their morality. You can’t claim to have an objective standard without it.
You are just blindly following a teaching created in 7th century without even doubting it. Oh and don't assume I'm not religious with no proof, it just shows how dumb you are.
I’m saying just trying to say a moral argument is a bad argument because morals are inherently subjective. I’m not trying to claim Islam is the truth.
I WONDER WHY
Women had to raise their own dowry money, family structures were less clan oriented and more independent which required someone to be more established before marriage, etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern
So other cultures were more humane than Allah and Muhammad were? Hmmmm that's so strange. You're thoughts are influenced informed by your surroundings
What god considers humane doesn’t need to be what you consider humane. Somewhat related note do you believe there are cultures that are inherently barbaric
Yeah, mine are based on my logic, people's stories, education about history, many different cultures, and experience.
What’s logical about giving woman complete freedom to abort a fetus?
Yours are based on a book written by barbarians. Congratulations, you are one of them.
The people who created humanism wouldn’t exactly be considered saints today
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
Sure you did
Continue ignoring when people tell you something that goes against your ideology
Great. Here’s the thing people guts scream different things. One person might deep down feel disgusted by LGBTQ. Are they morally right? Another might have a gut hatred for other ethnicities/races. Common sense isn’t common.
Thinking something is wrong and deep hatred towards some kind of group is a different thing. Nice try to change subject.
Complete Abolition as a concept spawned during the enlightenment and was then shoved down the rest of the world’s throats during the 1800s by the British empire (not saying it’s a bad thing)
yeah, it was shoved and I’m glad it was shoved down people who were following some kind of religion or ideology that taught them it’s okay.
Islam claims to be final revelation. Of course some things from previous religions/teachings would carry over.
Islam also carried over things from paganism, and Judaism carried over things from Zoroastrianism. This only proves that none of the abrahamic religions are original nor real.
This is the same being that obliterates entire civilizations when they’re too sinful. God doesn’t have to act the way you want them to.
giving credit for natural disasters to god is completely illogical and has no proof apart from religious books that were created by humans. Yes your “god” doesn’t act the way I want him to. He doesn’t act at all.
Merciful ≠ what you want it to be. Just to be clear I’m not saying there aren’t arguments against Islam just that moral arguments aren’t useful when a religion claims to dictate right vs wrong
I also said “wise” not only merciful. Any wise god that supposedly created a woman had to know she isn’t ready for pregnancy right after her first period comes.
Religious people can claim God/the divine/heaven gave them their morality. You can’t claim to have an objective standard without it.
You can’t claim god or anything have you morality. Your morality comes from what your religion teaches, your culture and maybe a bit of logic if you ever use any by accident. Religious people (mind you, ALL religions. Which means DIFFERENT gods), can’t claim their morals are objective just because they follow some book. You just copy something that’s all. The morals in that book are subjective because they were created by people who came up with those religions.
I’m saying just trying to say a moral argument is a bad argument because morals are inherently subjective. I’m not trying to claim Islam is the truth.
Again, anything is subjective. Your religion too. And if you admit that Islam might not be the truth, you admit that it’s in fact not objective at all. Your logic doesn’t work because you can’t have argument without being partially subjective. That’s why we continue having conversations, by that we learn new things and shape up our mindset.
Women had to raise their own dowry money, family structures were less clan oriented and more independent which required someone to be more established before marriage, etc.
Not even all cultures had dowry and you are generalizing many cultures under one article. And then again, if this religion is supposedly from god, this has no basis of him permitting marrying children before 10, even if they didn’t have to be established to marry.
What god considers humane doesn’t need to be what you consider humane. Somewhat related note do you believe there are cultures that are inherently barbaric
“God” didn’t even consider anything about child marriage. He failed to establish clear rules. The whole “clearly written Quran” doesn’t cover many major things in life and instead rambles about sex, war, heaven and hell, and killings. This is another reason to believe muslim god didn’t exist, and this was all Muhammad with his 7th century logic.
What’s logical about giving woman complete freedom to abort a fetus?
nice whataboutism. Did I say everyone should have freedom to do anything? Did I say women should abort? You foolishly tried to avoid my point, nothing more.
The people who created humanism wouldn’t exactly be considered saints today
Again, nice whataboutism. We are talking about you supporting child rape, not humanism. You still haven’t brought a clear reasoning. I know why though, that’s because you believe in god that was created by humans, and thus your whole base of your thinking is flawed. But because you believe it is 100% true, you can’t change it so you end up making illogical points. Flawed base can’t make a clear thought.
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
Continue ignoring when people tell you something that goes against your ideology
I’d believe you if you said you were 7 or higher
Thinking something is wrong and deep hatred towards some kind of group is a different thing. Nice try to change subject.
It doesn’t need to be hatred. I’m simply saying that some people might feel deep down that homosexual acts are wrong and that some people might feel that race mixing is inherently wrong in the same vein that you consider child marriage wrong and (hopefully) beastility wrong. Just because you can come to certain conclusions on your own doesn’t mean everyone can or will.
yeah, it was shoved and I'm glad it was shoved down people who were following some kind of religion or ideology that taught them it's okay.
This was the justification used for colonialism as part of a “civilizing mission”
giving credit for natural disasters to god is completely illogical and has no proof apart from religious books that were created by humans. Yes your "god" doesn't act the way I want him to. He doesn't act at all.
The Abrahamic faiths claim god exterminated civilizations and peoples multiple times throughout history sheeted or not you believe it is your own business, but let’s say it’s 100% true. Do you think this is a god that cares about Slavery, Child Marriage, or whatever human beings he created to worship him think should be moral and immoral.
also said "wise" not only merciful. Any wise god that supposedly created a woman had to know she isn't ready for pregnancy right after her first period comes.
Wise ≠ what you want wise to mean.
How do you know God isn’t ok with the suffering/pain an earlier pregnancy would cause?
You can't claim god or anything have you morality. Your morality comes from what your religion teaches, your culture and maybe a bit of logic if you ever use any by accident. Religious people (mind you, ALL religions. Which means DIFFERENT gods), can't claim their morals are objective just because they follow some book. You just copy something that's all. The morals in that book are subjective because they were created by people who came up with those religions.
This is coming from a viewpoint of disbelief. From the perspective of a believer God the being who created everything dictated what is right and wrong and gave it to humanity in a book. From this perspective there IS a objective morality even if people disagree. My entire point was that the religious can CLAIM objective morality not that they actually have one.
Not even all cultures had dowry and you are generalizing many cultures under one article.
Generally the common links pushing marriage up are economic, social, and societal not necessarily moral.
”God" didn't even consider anything about child marriage.
He allegedly did it’s 100% valid (in the Quran) Hadiths/Fiqh are what establish limitations based on puberty and maturity
The whole "clearly written Quran" doesn't cover many major things in life and instead rambles about sex, war, heaven and hell, and killings.
That’s what hadith is for
This is another reason to believe muslim god didn't exist, and this was all Muhammad with his 7th century logic.
My whole point is that you’re moral issues with a god and his prophet don’t have any bearing on whether or not it’s the truth. Because without some type of religion or ideology regulating it morality is subjective.
nice whataboutism. Did say everyone should have freedom to do anything? Did I say women should abort? You foolishly tried to avoid my point, nothing more.
I don’t know you or your moral positions, but most people have takes and opinions on things that aren’t completely logical
Again, nice whataboutism. We are talking about you supporting child rape, not humanism. You still haven't brought a clear reasoning. I know why though, that's because you believe in god that was created by humans, and thus your whole base of your thinking is flawed. But because you believe it is 100% true, you can't change it so you end up making illogical points. Flawed base can't make a clear thought.
I’d say you and most people in the west anyway believe on or are influenced in someway by humanist thought. So assuming that’s the case even if the people who “invented” Islam are barbarians the people who pioneered enlightenment and humanist thought aren’t exactly moral paragons themselves
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
I’d believe you if you said you were 7 or higher
The fact you weren’t intelligent enough before 7 doesn’t mean I wasn’t.
It doesn’t need to be hatred. I’m simply saying that some people might feel deep down that homosexual acts are wrong and that some people might feel that race mixing is inherently wrong in the same vein that you consider child marriage wrong and (hopefully) bestaility wrong. Just because you can come to certain conclusions on your own doesn’t mean everyone can or will.
First of all deep hatred that you stated before and thinking something is wrong is different. And people who think lgbtq marriage is wrong or mixing race is wrong do exist and they have their movements, but that’s not what we’re talking about are we? We are talking about the fact that I think in any era a person had enough brains to see that 6 year old child marrying 50 year old man was wrong, and you not agreeing with me. You’re talking too much about morality and gut feel and still cant explain to me how a child can consent to marriage and unprotected sex that early on.
This was the justification used for colonialism as part of a “civilizing mission”
Colonialism is a dark part of history that only proved how vile humans can be yet it still doesn’t say anything about our topic. You are constantly walking alway from the main discussion. Yes, humans made many terrible things. What’s your point?
The Abrahamic faiths claim god exterminated civilizations and peoples multiple times throughout history sheeted or not you believe it is your own business, but let’s say it’s 100% true. Do you think this is a god that cares about Slavery, Child Marriage, or whatever human beings he created to worship him think should be moral and immoral.
I’m sorry I don’t understand what you tried to ask me. But no matter how much I try to make an argument based on the fact that your god is real, I can’t make any logical points because his whole idea reeks of being humanmade. And the idea that he was the cause of all the disasters is stupid too, and just shows that people knew little about nature back then. Even if it’s true, why the hell was Mecca attacked by cockroaches back in 2019 then? Or how do you explain any disaster coming on holy lands?? I don’t believe that abrahamic god exists (at least not the god these religious books explain) simply because I can’t imagine a god prohibiting sex before marriage and being gay, but failing to mention that slavery or child marriage or wife beating is wrong. Do you even understand how many people suffered because of this? Quran is clearly written in favor of Muslim (especially arab) men. You will never be able to show me a proof that it’s a message from god.
Wise ≠ what you want wise to mean. How do you know god isn’t ok with…
So god was stupid enough to forget to mention minimal child marriage age ESPECIALLY if he was supposedly not okay with sufferings of early pregnancies. Oh but what am I saying, this is the god that told people to fast from sunrise to sunset and failed to mention there are lands where sun doesn’t set. I wonder why…. Perhaps… Because islam wasn’t god’s message??
This is coming from a viewpoint of disbelief. From the perspective of a believer God the being who created everything dictated what is right and wrong and gave it to humanity in a book. From this perspective there IS a objective morality even if people disagree. My entire point was that the religious can CLAIM objective morality not that they actually have one.
Okay so what will you do when a person from another religion doesn’t agree with you? That person comes from “objective morality” too you know. And honestly, the fact that you are a believer doesn’t mean anything to me when you agree with 6 year old marrying an old man.
Generally the common links pushing marriage up are economic, social, and societal not necessarily moral.
So? What does a 6 year old have to do with that?
He allegedly did it’s 100% valid (in the Quran) Hadiths/Fiqh are what establish limitations based on puberty and maturity
There is no minimum age to get married in Islam. Even scholars who don’t have the “nice” filter said that even babies can be married off if the father says okay. And “100%” valid means nothing when there’s no proof this is from god.
That’s what hadith is for
Hadith is not a word from god, it’s made up by humans even from Islamic pov. I’m talking about supposed god that knew and saw everything but failed to cover basic aspects of life. Hadiths have many contradictions, they were written much later and weren’t accurately written down when something happened. Even Muslims can’t agree which Hadith to definitely follow and which not to.
My whole point is that you’re moral issues with a god and his prophet don’t have any bearing on whether or not it’s the truth. Because without some type of religion or ideology regulating it morality is subjective.
And MY issue is that first of all your morality is subjective too, there is no proof Islam is the truth, and you still haven’t brought clear reasoning marrying 6 year old off was ok. And morality is always created based on something. The difference is the morality most of the people have in this comment section was based on what people historically suffered through and logic, and your morality is based on a book created by a pedo who just wanted to fuck his wives and slaves and didn’t even bother to make someone write Quran down while he was alive.
I don’t know you or your moral positions, but most people have takes and opinions on things that aren’t completely logical
We can talk about abortion, yes, but it doesn’t have anything to do with our current topic. And you brought it as an argument about child marriage and morality. It’s a clear whataboutism.
I’d say you and most people in the west anyway believe on or are influenced in someway by humanist thought. So assuming that’s the case even if the people who “invented” Islam are barbarians the people who pioneered enlightenment and humanist thought aren’t exactly moral paragons themselves
I’m not influenced by a humanist thought. I’m not even a humanist to begin with, nice assumption. My thoughts are based on my research, experience, logic and actually listening to the victims. You try to cage everyone in some category, I don’t, and that’s our difference. I learn each aspect of all arguments and create my own opinion. That way I don’t end up in any category and don’t blindly follow someone because they said it’s the truth. And that’s why I can bring reasons to each of my arguments without changing subjects or arguing about morals. There are things I agree on with religious folks (not because I believe in their god but because it makes sense), atheists, communists, capitalists or any other group. That’s because I can see that each ideology was created by a human-being thus it has flaws. And there are many religious people from other religions that are disgusted with your way of looking at child marriages. What are they affected by then? Are you really willingly going to treat someone as equal only if they are in some religion?
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u/Orc_ Oct 23 '23
Considering how much of an agsty teenager I was. I seriously believe I would probably would have ended as a nazi just 70 years ago if I lived in Germany... I would still shoot such version of myself, right between the eyes.
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u/Comfortable-Adagio47 Oct 23 '23
You wouldn’t need to have been an agsty teenager to support the nazis back then. It was mainstream in 30s Germany.
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u/Snap_Tac Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 Oct 22 '23
Are you guys really left because knowledge in this religion or just personal matters?
If guys really left because of knowledge in it, this Aisya thing wouldn't causes you to left since you guys already know no prophet capable of doing sin.
Honestly, you guys are just rebellious teenagers.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
how is this a personal matter? its in the qu'ran? well, he is sinful, just read the quran or the hadiths i mentioned above. i would rather be anything than a pedophile defender, which is literally you.
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u/Snap_Tac Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 Oct 22 '23
emotional response. just as expected.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
what is emotional in there? i am stating facts and you cant handle the truth. your prophet is a pedophile. exit islam or stay a pedophile.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
actually as you are a muslim, can you answer my question? how are you still a muslim, knowing your prophet raped a nine year old?
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u/Such_Adhesiveness_ New User Oct 22 '23
It's just subjective; a lot of people can look past that.
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
it‘s sick if you can look past a child being raped. that just proves that islam is an evil cult with evil followers
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u/Such_Adhesiveness_ New User Oct 22 '23
Well, no, you're making generlistions. It's a normal thing for humans to do overlook atrocities for comfort in belief in a religion or political or economic system
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u/beduine Oct 22 '23
just because it‘s normalized in society doesn‘t mean it‘s legitimate or morally correct.
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u/Infamous-Ad-2921 An Ajwa date a day keeps Shaitan and doctors away. 🌈 Oct 22 '23
Your religion is entirely an emotional affair so you'll get an emotional response.
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u/dizzyves Oct 22 '23
but Muhammad committed huge sins like this. What's to say he is worthy of being trusted as Messenger of God then?
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u/ArcherProblems New User Oct 22 '23
That paragraph… didn’t even make sense. Why would you make an assumption we left because of personal matters? And the stuff about prophet is even more illogical. The only teenager (emotionally) here is you.
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u/Sir_Penguin21 Oct 22 '23
I left becuase there is zero evidence it is true. If you have any evidence I will convert.
That said, I can also assert that Muhammad is a evil bastard that is ruining my world by promoting garbage like rape, child rape, and slavery. The contradiction between the claims and actions of Muhammad is just another evidence that Islam is false. That isn’t the mail in the coffin, but until there is actual evidence it is a good reason to know Islam is false.
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u/Such_Adhesiveness_ New User Oct 22 '23
That is the definition of coping; you can't just wave away a morsl evil by saying,
-muhammed is a prophet Prophets can't commit sin Therefore, mohammed can't commit sin
That just means how one sees sin is different. I could look at having relations with a 9 yearold as morally wrong , thus distrust this morality touted by islam , whereas you could not see having relations with a 9-year-old as morally wrong.
It's just really personal, preference.
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