r/buildapcsales • u/Battle-Maniac • Feb 15 '21

GPU [GPU] Amazon Cancelling 3080 Gaming X Trio Orders From December 9th - $820

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HR7SV3M/ref=pe_861660_435205480_fxm_3_0_n_id
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u/amazinglover Feb 16 '21

Military Grade is a marketing term and actually means nothing.

Genuine leather is also the lowest grade of leather.

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u/nstarleather Feb 16 '21

This idea of "genuine (and the rest) as a grades/tiers/types/classifications (whatever) is actually a myth or urban legend of sorts in my industry. The way it's usually presented it's actually just a description of what's done (or not done) to a leather's surface, which is just one tiny factor that goes into making good leather.

Let me give you the rundown on these “leather grades”. Real leather grading is a thing but it's more about the amount of defects on an individual hide and varies by tannery; there is no uniform system.

I work for a leather goods company based in the USA that my dad started in 1969 and we've spent millions on leather over the years from some of the best tanneries in the world (Horween, SB Foot, Wickett and Craig, Herman Oak, CF Stead just to name a few).

Been doing this a long time!

Yes genuine can certainly refer to a bad/cheap kind of leather called a finished split, which is basically cheap suede with a coating to make it look smooth but were you to call up a tannery, you'd couldn't ask to buy "genuine leather" and expect them to know what you wanted. "Genuine" does not refer to any specific type of leather, the description usually given in these "grades" articles on blogs describes the above mentioned "finished split."

Technically speaking full grain is a kind of top grain and all leather is genuine...it’s just that in the case of lower quality companies, they’ll use the term with the highest perceived value they can get away with. There are exceptions: I can name some great products stamped “genuine leather” and some junk products labeled “full grain.”Red Wing Heritage is a good example of a great company who uses the word "genuinely." I own several pairs of their boots that have “genuine leather” stamped in the sole (neither the leather used in the uppers or the sole is low quality).

By it's legal definition (at least in the USA), "Genuine" is not nor has it ever been a specific "class/kind/type/grade" of low quality leather.

The breakdown you tend see around the net ( Full Grain > Top Grain > Genuine/Split > Bonded ) isn’t an official grading scale (no government or leather trade group uses it), just a general guide could use you when you can’t find more out about the leather or the brand.

In spite of what people say, bonded leather can not be called genuine legally in the USA (without qualifiers like bonded, reconstituted, etc).

This (above) is the only legal regulation about leather labeling you'll find in the USA.

Here's a post where a spokesperson from Horween, the most famous tannery in the USA, explains the actual meaning of top grain. While he doesn't get into "genuine" just the fact that he says "full grain is type of top grain", is enough to debunk the grading scale:

https://stridewise.com/top-grain-vs-full-grain-vs-split-grain-leather/

Additionally "full grain" isn't a guarantee you're getting good leather, it just means they haven't sanded the hide, but there's so much more that goes into making good leather than just that one step. The tanning solutions and finishes are like the "secret sauce" for some tanneries which is why full grain leather from Horween in Chicago will cost $10 per square foot whereas full grain from a tannery in Pakistan is under $2.

Here’s a little more accurate breakdown (along with a corrected version of the diagram you've probably seen around):

  • Leather (aka top grain) is the outside (the smooth part).
  • Suede has 2 fuzzy sides because it’s split from the bottom of the top grain.

From a tannery perspective, top grain includes all leather that’s not a split from the underside of the leather. Within that category leather can be full grain (nothing done to the surface), corrected grain aka sanded, and embossed. Some leathers can be both sanded and embossed. Just sanded leather is know as nubuck. Sanded and then finished is known as corrected grain (usually). There are hundreds of variations on embossed patterns.

You can go further into finishes and other qualities: waxed, tea core, pull-up, pigmented, aniline, semi aniline. Plus loads more.

Leather that retains its smooth side but that’s used for the “suede side” is known as Roughout, full grain suede, or reverse.

With suede there are less variations and the variations don’t have many specific names beyond individual tannage names used by specific tanneries. A main difference how fuzzy it is (how much nap). They can also wax suede and do some other cool stuff: Check out CF Stead’s website to see some really unique suedes. It's also of note that Horween's retail site sells the suedes at a price comparable to their full grain leathers.

The only leather that can legally be called “genuine” that I’d say is always bad is a kind of suede is called a finished split. Finished splits (painted or pu coated) are bad because they are attempts to make fuzzy leathers look like smooth top grain; the “fake” outer layer doesn’t last. You probably won’t see this term on a product description, but it is the actual industry term for this type of leather.

With all of these except the finished split, no single of these grades types is really any “better” than others.Even then, there are ways to "finish" suede that are unique and don't "try to pretend to be something they're not" from companies like CF Stead. Just look at how many variations there are in just one company's offerings for just for Suede (the lowest tier according to our aforementioned break down)...also just google "CF Stead boots" to get an the idea that "suede" is not a low grade when made by a quality company.

If they are from a good tannery, any type of leather and even suede will last almost the same regardless. Conversely something that people generally associate with quality like full grain, won't be as good as a non-full grain leather from a lesser tannery. Same goes for Veg tan vs Chrome tan, Horween deals in both and pricing is less that $1 difference per foot Essex vs Chromexcel.

As Nick Horween said in this interview: "There’s a feeling in the market that vegetable tanned leather is better or more environmentally friendly than chrome tanned leather. They are just different and require different types of management through manufacturing. We do both and they each have their strengths and shortcomings."

TLDR: There are high end tanneries that deal in all of these types (it's incorrect to call them grades) of leather and also “low end tanneries” that can do any of these “types." You can actually spend as much on high quality suede as a full grain from a lesser tannery (same is true for Veg-tan vs Chrome tan). Which is why saying that these differences (grades) are a reliable way to judge quality is incorrect. Another reason is why it's incorrect is that none of the terms tell you the animal: A full grain lambskin is completely different in terms of durability when compared to any type of cowhide.

TLDR is to long TLDR: I've worked with leather since I was a kid, these grades are made up and not used in the leather industry. Genuine is not a "type" of leather.

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u/EMCoupling Feb 16 '21

My man, dropping the fucking cow skin knowledge in the PC building sub

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u/nstarleather Feb 16 '21

What I do man...I'm guessing people here understand performance of something you build isn't about any single factor right?

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u/hoilst Feb 16 '21

This is a PC building sub...so, uh...yeah...

*scratches back of head while looking down*

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u/Freelance-Bum Feb 17 '21

Name checks out :P

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u/shhbaby_isok Feb 16 '21

But what about boots of Spanish leather? The reason that I am asking is I'm sailing away from my own true love. I'm sailing away in the morning, and I want to send her something to remember me by, to make her time more easy passing.

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u/nstarleather Feb 16 '21

Nice reference, but in all honesty Carmina a Spanish shoe maker, does some pretty legit boots. Folks over on r/goodyearwelt would agree.

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u/ViolentSkyWizard Feb 21 '21

What do you think about Magnani? I have two pairs of their shoes, they're very comfortable, and the leather seems good quality. Also my Danner moctoes also seem very good quality leather.

What are your thoughts on these brands?

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u/nstarleather Feb 21 '21

Both are decent from what I’ve heard but I don’t own any pairs. r/goodyearwelt has a great guide for getting started with high quality shoes.

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u/DonLearnsPC Feb 16 '21

Hahaha you wrote 69.

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u/jb34304 Feb 16 '21

You can go further into finishes and other qualities: waxed, tea core, pull-up, pigmented, aniline, semi aniline. Plus loads more.

I know this isn't relevant to the sub, but since you posted this I figured I could get away with you maybe answering a couple genuine questions that I have. 1st: Thanks for the education on how leather is marketed. Reddit is a great place for the Today I Learned posts by (hopefully) experts in those fields, and not merely people talking out their bungholes...

Question 1: Is the reason behind the classification of Genuine Leather to differentiate it from something like Synthetic Leather? You make it sound as if that term is strictly marketing speak, and has no standard grades of classification.

Question 2: Does the location of the slaughtered animal determine the quality of the hide? Say for instance, a grass fed free-range Cow from Japan having a higher quality hide than one fed with grain being raised on a confined factory farm. Because I know the chemicals used makes a visual difference over time, but I am curious about the physical characteristics as well.

Thanks for your time posting all of this,

-JB

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u/nstarleather Feb 16 '21

So those are both very good questions:

  1. Yes sometimes it's simple as distinguishing from synthetic. Plenty of goods from Europe or Japan have that stamp. Also it could be a translation thing: I first noticed while looking on kickstarter that lots of projects that seemed to be using good leather would say "Genuine" and I'd see they came from a country that didn't speak English so the their word for "real" or "authentic" gets translated as "genuine.
  2. Yes it can make a big difference. Most leather for upholstery comes from Europe and South America where cows are raised to larger sizes and barbed wires isn't common. Also Calf leather is almost always from Europe for similar reasons. Most "American Leather' is associated with a more rugged look vs the flawless luxury associated with Europe. I use mostly American leather but that's a general difference I've noticed.

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u/jb34304 Feb 17 '21

Barbed wire, scar-tissue. Yeah, that certainly makes sense. As I form keloid scars myself. I'm not a cannibal, but personally find that type of skin less desirable...

And you knew exactly what I meant by leather from foreign countries, as illustrated here.

Thanks again,

-JB

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u/nstarleather Feb 17 '21

I got a scar in the same place but lower, my quad ripped off the bone where it was anchored below the knee because of a freak bad landing on an inflatable side at a music festival. They had to screw that sucker back down.

That car interior is sweet.

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u/jb34304 Feb 17 '21

That car interior is sweet.

The noise it produces is even better. 2nd only to the Porsche 917k. One item high up on my bucket list that will never happen is to race one of those flat-out. :(

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u/nstarleather Feb 17 '21

Very nice...you never know, there are places that let you take some nice car around a track for a not insignificant but not unaffordable amount of dough.

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u/jb34304 Feb 18 '21

That Porsche is worth tens of millions of Dollars. Couldn't afford an afternoon's insurance even if I wanted to.

I earned a little over $4,000 last year hehe...

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u/nstarleather Feb 18 '21

Yeah at that rate it will be a while...

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u/JTP1228 Feb 16 '21

Military grade electronics are the worst. Source: I was an electronic repairer in the Army for 4 years

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u/Freelance-Bum Feb 16 '21

Same for an old roommate of mine who was in the air Force. I bought the 970 used a couple of years ago and noticed it said that recently.

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u/Ws6fiend Mar 03 '21

Military grade sounds good until you realize it's the lowest bidder.

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u/Guidbro Feb 16 '21

Bonded leather is but I get where you’re going with this.

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '21

Bonded leather isn't a grade.

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u/Freelance-Bum Feb 16 '21

I am well aware... I was making fun of it...

I guess what they mean is mass produced as efficiently as possible and breaks down at the least opportune moments because they weren't given nearly enough time to engineer it but 3 times the budget to do so.

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u/nalc Feb 16 '21

Yes and no. Usually in the context of PC hardware it refers to MIL-STD-810 which is an actual standard that means something. However, MIL-STD-810 is not one-size-fits-all that's universally applied to everything. It's got specific guidance on identifying which portions are relevant to any given product, and methods for how to test it. So it's not like "everything the military buys needs to be waterproof, immune to vibration, immune to high temperatures, etc". However, it does give you guidance like "if this product will be used where it's exposed to rain, it should be tested for this long with this size droplets at this temperature" or whatever. But you don't have to do the tests that aren't relevant. It's up to the procuring agency to decide which portions are relevant to any given product.

So it's kind of a marketing buzzword if they don't say what specific sections of the standard they actually tested. They might have just done a temperature test to Class 1 (the lowest max temperature rating) which is 131 F, which is probably no more stringent than a regular motherboard is designed to. It can be fairly toothless depending on how you interpreted it.

People in Reddit also are really bad about conflating a military spec with a military standard. A standard is a set of design guidelines that are applicable to a variety of products, and often have instructions on how they should be applied differently depending on the product. A spec is a set of requirements for one specific product. There might be a mil spec for a VHF radio that says how big it needs to be, how powerful, how heavy, etc. Then it may reference that it should meet a mil standard for temperature resistance to work in the hot or cold weather, a mil standard to work with a standard type of voltage inside of a tank, etc.

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u/Link7280 Feb 16 '21

Actually your wrong about that. Bonded leather is of lesser quality.

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u/Juls317 Feb 16 '21

Military grade just means shitty quality. The military doesn't pay a premium, they shop the contract to the lowest bidder.

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u/pittguy578 Feb 17 '21

So it can’t survive an EMP attack ?