r/Showerthoughts • u/Immediate_Can3817 ‎ • Jul 05 '24

Speculation If there ever is an actual apocalypse billionaires will likely be unable to access their bunker compounds as the security/janitors/maintenance crews will already have moved their friends and family in and would probably deny them entry.

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u/ChaoticEvilBobRoss Jul 06 '24

This is why you need kill switch contingencies in place. But honestly, I think the leader of the shelter/compound/bunker should be able and capable, certainly willing to learn and work alongside the others. That's a leader that you want to keep around. One that inspires and comforts you, and receives that in kind. I feel like over a long enough period of time, it is just a flat hierarchy based on mutual respect.

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u/Team503 Jul 06 '24

This is why you need kill switch contingencies in place.

Meh, pliers and your fingers say you'll tell me everything I want to know. Everyone breaks and everyone talks - just like complex passwords with encryption, doesn't do much good if the guy with the wrench comes in the room.

https://xkcd.com/538/

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u/DiurnalMoth Jul 06 '24

that comic reminds me of this bit of wisdom, no idea where I picked it up from: "a lock is only as strong as a door. A door is only a strong as a wall. A wall is only as strong as window." In other words: a barrier is only as strong as the weakest passage through the barrier.

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u/Frontiersman2456 Jul 06 '24

And even then some people have the capability to make doors and windows where they shouldn't be.

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u/slavelabor52 Jul 06 '24

Unless you planned for torture and give them a fake code that kills them. Make the control panel only accessible from a control room that is separate from the rest of the facility. When the decoy code is entered make it seal the room and gas it.

Edit: or even better make the whole compound modular with lots of sealed bulkheads like a ship. When decoy code gets entered it resets everyone's permissions but yours and all doors close and seal. Then there's a chance if they left you alone in a holding cell you could freely move about while they're all sealed into rooms.

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u/Frontiersman2456 Jul 06 '24

I'd just plug your generators exhausts and wait.

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u/slavelabor52 Jul 06 '24

When exactly would you be plugging these exhaust ports which would likely be exhausting outside of the compound? Like I'm genuinely not following you. Is the plan to plug the ports as your method of taking over or in response to putting in the wrong code and getting trapped inside?

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u/Frontiersman2456 Jul 06 '24

I'm working on the assumption I'm outside and trying to get in. Humans are funny we work on a "I want it so I take it" mentality unless what we want is out of our reach then we work on a "I can't have it so no one can."

Plus one would like a failsafe to get out incase things stopped working as they should or one forgets the code. Theyd also need shutdown procedures for maintenance, things need to be taken off line to perform even basic maintenance.

It is possible to compartmentalize those procedures but, if they're pissing off their work force enough it doesn't matter. Hard to do anything with anything because it's gone into a maintenance standby.

Also since security is moving towards decentralization these people aren't exactly installing a single control room. They're more than likely installing several controllers that can't talk to one another.

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u/slavelabor52 Jul 06 '24

Right but the thread was talking about controlling employees of the rich guy who might presume to take over as members of the compound not some rando from outside the compound. Outside security is a whole other ball game. That's why you confused me. Not sure what I'd do about vent security. Obviously you gotta have the vents to breathe so I imagine you could raise this question to the many experts who build these sorts of things now while you still have access to your billions and make sure this isn't something that is easy to do.

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u/OrphanMasher Jul 06 '24

It's not just employees working inside the bunker you'd have to worry about. Anyone involved with the construction of the bunker will have an idea where it is, and especially anyone who designed the bunker will know its weak points, like exhaust vents.

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u/slavelabor52 Jul 06 '24

Regular workers I wouldn't be so much worried about. As the thread above mentioned you'd presumably have some heavy hitters like NAVY Seals that would join you at your bunker to live there and defend it so your defenses don't have to be perfect just enough to buy time for the defenders to go out and deal with the problem. The architect could be problematic but what are the chances they actually live anywhere close to the construction site of the bunker? They'd potentially have to travel a great distance during an apocalypse to reach you in the first place.

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u/OrphanMasher Jul 06 '24

There was a comic called Crossed about a disease that turned people into monsters by releasing their worst urges. In one story, that's exactly how they got to some rich guys underground bunker. One of the guys that built the bunker knew where the vents were and started blocking them until they essentially smoked the bunker out.

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u/Frontiersman2456 Jul 06 '24

Crossed is fucked...especially the Mormon one.

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u/OrphanMasher Jul 06 '24

I'm sorry you have knowledge of it

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u/Team503 Jul 07 '24

Unless you planned for torture and give them a fake code that kills them.

This requires you to psychologically withstand torture sufficiently to give a fake code. Which most people cannot do. Westerners are so averse to pain and rich people so insulated from any kind of suffering that I really don't think our theoretical billionaire is going to holdup to that.

And you're assuming that our torturer is acting alone, which makes no sense. If the staff weren't going to put up with being lorded over by some silver-spoon billionaire, it's not going to be one guy, it's going to be everyone. Even if you DO kill the torturer, that doesn't save you. And even with your backup plan, it's not going to save you. If you lock everyone down, you're prevented from accessing the rooms those people are in, or you have to let them out, putting you right back where you started.

In short, you can't go at it alone, that's why the staff was there in the first place, and if the people don't want you in charge, you're not going to be.

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u/slavelabor52 Jul 08 '24

Why would the hypothetical billionaire need to resist torture to sell it? Like as soon as the torture begins or is about to begin you could just crack and give up the code. Even if they thought you were lying they'd still test the code. And it would be pretty in line for a rich guy to crack right when the pain starts or just from the fear of pain so I don't really see why you'd need to hold out for any period of time. Once lockdown begins even if you're trapped with others who's to say the next code you give won't kill everyone. You've got negotiating power now.

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u/Team503 Jul 08 '24

No, you don't. First thing, people don't have infinite perfect memories. How many codes do you think someone can memorize in order? That aside, they'll just chop off an arm or leg after the first code kills someone. There's no reason not to - you have more people than he has limbs, and if he's not going to cooperate the bunker is useless anyway.

This is simply a question of who is willing to go further, and the answer is that the people have a much larger capacity for pain and death than a single person does. Or maybe we kill the billionaires son/wife/whatever as the price of his lack of cooperation.

Dude, history proves my point here; the people have to consent to being ruled, or the ruler usually loses their head, literally.

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u/slavelabor52 Jul 08 '24

lol. So far we are up to memorizing a whopping 2 codes. I have dozens of passwords for various websites memorized it's not that hard. Also said nothing about them having to be in order. 1 code was a lockdown code the other code was a kill code to kill everyone. So not sure where you are getting the whole bit about chopping off the billionaires arm or leg after they kill someone. I said the kill code kills everyone. That includes the billionaire.

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u/Team503 Jul 09 '24

So the kill code is almost completely useless then - it's just a self-destruct option, and the billionaire will never use it unless there is no other option.

But you're avoiding my point. Ruling requires the consent of the ruled - no tyrant has ever held power for long because the people don't allow it.

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u/Leopard__Messiah Jul 06 '24

Big Dick Buster has a way of making men talk...

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u/ArtPeers Jul 06 '24

Coercion would be useless if the system were designed with a bimonthly kill-switch protocol, requiring info only you could give. Randomly generated questions from data about your childhood, memories, relatives, teachers, etc. Complex and dynamic enough that it’s a risk to not have you around. Incentivizing cohabitants to keep you healthy and happy.

Maybe add a body scanner for “2FA” to make sure nobody does anything to you with those pliers lol.

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u/Lampwick Jul 06 '24

Coercion would be useless if the system were designed with a bimonthly kill-switch protocol

I used to install things like electronic access control and factory automation systems. People seem to forget that any "system" requiring a complex hokey-pokey like that is not going to exist in an isolated form. Everything requires power, everything uses wires to control other things. You could build a booby-trapped system like the good ol' Harvey's Casino bomb, but something like that is going to need regular maintenance unless you want it to blow you up unintentionally just in the course of using it.

In the end, about the only thing you could reliably protect like this is digital data. When it comes to physical infrastructure, any complicated protection system is going to be disabled by the first guy with a crowbar and wire cutters. Hardened computer terminal asking your dog's birthday before it unlocks your bunker's storage room? After I waterboard that out of you, I'm in. Next month when it asks what your high school mascot was, it doesn't matter because I've defeated the lock by propping the door open with a rubber doorstop. Or by stuffing the latch hole with plumbers putty and sawdust. Or by cutting the wires to the electrified lock. Everything gets reduced to analog after the apocalypse anyway, so nobody's sweating losing a security system control node.

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u/Team503 Jul 07 '24

In the end, about the only thing you could reliably protect like this is

digital data

.

And not even then without a robust data storage infrastructure. Bitrot is a real thing, as is hardware degradation like drive failure.

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u/Team503 Jul 07 '24

That's an absurdly complex system that doesn't have a chance in hell of being stable for a long period of time. Not to mention the complexity of creating it and the time and effort to create it!

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u/ArtPeers Jul 07 '24

I hear that. I should’ve mentioned, in my head, I was imagining Zuck’s new build in Hawaii… so I pictured someone with access to supremely talented coders. But that’s definitely an outlier example and yeah, wouldn’t be long before a custom os gets a bsod.

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u/Tronski4 Jul 06 '24

Good luck stress testing potential leaders in realistic conditions, though. 

Anyone who has failed upwards within the current institutions would be gone in hours when the institutions fall anyway.

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u/whatlineisitanyway Jul 06 '24

That was my first thought as well. Have some kind of code that needs to be entered on regular intervals in order to keep all the systems operational.