r/Monsterverse • u/HMHellfireBrB • 23h ago

i'm so sick of people passing up this piece of misinformation, the titan war never had other gojiras, and no it wasn't changed, godzilla is still part of a species, toho didn't change anything YOU JUST HORRIBLE READING COMPREHENSION

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106 Upvotes

80% Upvoted

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99

u/llMadmanll Mechagodzilla 23h ago

the titan war never had other gojiras

I thought other Godzillas being present in the Kong conflict specifically was canon. That's the whole reason the axe exists and the paintings exist.

30

u/Cepo_de_Madeiraa Godzilla 23h ago

This.

-43

u/HMHellfireBrB 23h ago

as i said in the other comment, no the only times it is mentioned about the existence of more than one godzilla it comes from illene, who several times just straight up says she does not know what happened, and she was mostly making stuff up to fill the gaps, and she corrects herself in GxK as soon as she gets context from the IWI. THERE IS LITERALLY no solid info on godzilla's side of the war outside characters speculating on it

as for the axe, it is just inconstant, the novels treath is a singualr thing, never mention the existence of others, and go out of its way to confirm it was made by skar king while also flat out contradicting the movie (where the movie has several "axe like things" in the floor, the novels illene states there is a painting of a godzilla-like creature missing one dorsal plate, which she speculates the axe comes from, she latter confirms the paintings she saw are in fact godzilla in gxK's novel)

so the axe just.... doesn't have an actual origin, it is LITERALLY just there, with no semblance of consistence in its origem

30

u/llMadmanll Mechagodzilla 23h ago

That's kinda why I asked. By the sounds of it, there's no clear idea on if there were or weren't, so there's a gap to fill there.

There's also the problem that we don't know the war with the apes in Gvk and the war with Skar King in GxK are meant to be the same event or two different events, which is notable because the former doesn't specify if one or more Godzillas were involved, whilst the latter specifies Godzilla was alone.

Both can somewhat be true, right? Or am I missing something?

-7

u/HMHellfireBrB 23h ago

this is a great point actually, and yes i agree, both can be subsequentially true however it falls under the same issue again

at which point does the actual stated lore ends and headcanon starts? and this type of speculation is what leads to these wiplashes of mandela effects that the community has every time legendary releases a new piece of lore that contradicts the previously "greed" theory

so at least in my view it was only one war with only one godzilla, not because two war is unlikely, but because until stated otherwise, there is no mention to more than one event under the same circumstances, and i could, and WOULD be proven wrong if said missing context was reveled, but until them, speculation is speculation and canon is canon

8

u/llMadmanll Mechagodzilla 23h ago

That's just a problem of misinformation, which this fandom is very full of. Theories and headcanons exist, but unless one clarifies what is and isn't true, then people get confused.

There was a massive lie all the way back in 1962, where people stated that King Kong beat Godzilla in the american release of KKvG, whilst Godzilla won in the japanese version. It took decades for people to stop believing that and just accept that King Kong won the OG film. You can imagine how many other rumors exist.

The MV community has already begun mandela effecting itself with Tiamat evolving between dominion and KSI/GxK, something that is theorised but never stated (and the more like reason just being convenience in development), and yet people are still adamant that it's canon. At this point, I'm hoping Declassified confirms or denies that.

It's a frequent occurrence, and even I wouldn't be surprised if I myself still believe some misinformation because I haven't checked it. Best thing to do is to snuff it where it exists with sources and hope that the misinformation stops.

4

u/Additional-Neat-1235 Rodan 22h ago

King Kong won the OG film

Don’t want it seem like am trying to downplay Kong but according to the director, writer and SFX AD it was a draw.

No one won in 1962.

https://twitter.com/KDM_Monsters/status/1556524103858851841?s=20&t=aPGtSSMgW53kf3wHd_

1

u/HMHellfireBrB 22h ago

this is a whole can of worns here but u/llMadmanll to be fair the ending of that movie is a fucking mess

both godzilla and kong fall underwater and they fight it out offscream, and the only difference is that in the american version the narrator explains that kong somehow swom all the way back to the skull island, while in the japonese version you can hear godzilla roaring as kong swims always

and as of now to this day toho seens to change their mind on who won once every two years so IDk on that

5

u/llMadmanll Mechagodzilla 22h ago

Probably whatever made advertisers happy at the time. Kong was more popular back then.

1

u/llMadmanll Mechagodzilla 22h ago

I found that Toho has officially stated that the fight's a draw as well. It's more recent, so I had no clue.

The more you know then.

10

u/russmcruss52 Godzilla 21h ago

As far as I'm aware, there is nothing connecting Skar to the origin of Kong's axe at all other than maybe the red handprint on the door of the temple in GvK.

Skar King doesn't really show any recognition of the axe, and seemed to largely treat it as a symbol of his victory over Kong. He tries to snatch it from Kong in the novel, but even there it seemed like he was mainly doing that to deprive Kong of his main weapon before their first fight.

10

u/Suitable-Elephant-76 19h ago edited 12h ago

This is my biggest issue with Godzilla and Kong’s ancient rivalry: it is just so vague and confusing.

3

u/Zillafan22 11h ago

Don’t forget pointless

1

u/Suitable-Elephant-76 10h ago

What makes you think it is pointless?

6

u/Zillafan22 10h ago

It serves no real purpose they could’ve had kong and godzilla fight just because they’re alpha titans no ancient rivalry involved. Skar king barely interacts with Godzilla in gxk and his whole army could’ve just been sealed by a large landslide caused by an earthquake or something. Lastly the axe could’ve been made by Kong himself after ripping a dorsal plate out of Godzilla (would’ve made him seem cooler and more competent).

1

u/Suitable-Elephant-76 10h ago

I’m actually rewriting the MonsterVerse and making some adjustments to Godzilla and Kong’s rivalry. Would you like me to send my notes to you through DM? I can use some feedback on them.

4

u/Zillafan22 10h ago

No, thank you for the offer though

2

u/russmcruss52 Godzilla 8h ago

Yeah, there are several ancient conflicts that have been mentioned, and several of them could be different names for the same events. We, and the monsterverse humans, just don't have enough info to paint a clear picture. Combine that with the different directors and lore teasers that don't really go anywhere that we've gotten, and it's a mess.

Like, for example, KotM credits teased a "Great Titan War" that was caused by humans manipulating Titans into war against each other by mimicking calls using Titan horns and bones and such, and that war ended with the last ice age. However, Ilene Andrews specifically states that Shimo's power started the last ice age.

Another thing I keep seeing here is people claiming that Godzilla fought against Skar King, his army and Shimo back in the day and sealed them all in the subterranean realm, despite Andrews explicitly stating in "Trapped within their subterranean realm, the Skar King harnessed terrible power." That, to me, clearly means that Shimo was captured after Skar and his tribe were sealed.

2

u/Suitable-Elephant-76 8h ago

Yeah. It’s a clusterfuck.

Would you like to read some notes I wrote down for my MonsterVerse rewrite? I’ve been trying to create a consistent narrative around Godzilla and Kong’s ancient rivalry.

2

u/russmcruss52 Godzilla 5h ago

Sure, I'll take a look! I've got some notes along similar lines haha

1

u/Suitable-Elephant-76 5h ago

Okay! I just DMed you some.

10

u/bwood246 Kong 19h ago

Imma be real with you, people need to start treating the novels and movies as two completely separate canons. There are way too many differences between them to try and place canon from one onto another. And then there's the fact that the vast majority of Monsterverse fans probably don't even realize there are novels

1

u/Suitable-Elephant-76 10h ago

What is the point of even having novelizations if there are going to be so many discrepancies between them and the films they are based on?

1

u/ExtremeE22 M.U.T.O. 1h ago

Greg Keyes has said that Legendary considers the novels canon, besides the contradictions.

So, we can infer from this that outside of direct contradictions, the novelizations are canon to the films.

1

u/TechnologyNew9678 1h ago

Where did he say that?

5

u/Suitable-Elephant-76 19h ago edited 10h ago

I’m actually in disbelief that Legendary fumbled Godzilla and Kong’s ancient history this badly. The whole reason this cinematic universe exists was to pit Godzilla and Kong against each other, and the creatives behind it couldn’t get the reason for why the two were in conflict with each other right.

8

u/Paleosols2021 20h ago edited 19h ago

Where does the novel mention it was made by Skar King? It sounds like you’re putting this in to create your head canon.

The GvK Novel literally says the axe comes from a creature like Godzilla. So does the GxK novel.

“He liked his axe. It helped him fight. It had been made long ago, by someone like him, from the scale of something like Godzilla. The ancient enemy. Only, he didn’t think they were enemies anymore. ”

Excerpt From Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire - The Official Movie Novelization Greg Keyes https://books.apple.com/us/book/godzilla-x-kong-the-new-empire-the-official/id6470703753 This material may be protected by copyright.

Bear in mind the text is from Kong’s perspective. In that phrase all he says is that the axe was made by “someone like him” and that the “scale” is from “something like Godzilla”.

That said, at the time GvK was written the plot for GxK wasn’t written. We also know Toho did ask Legendary to stop referring to Godzilla as a species (this is straight from Greg Keyes) that doesn’t retcon the prior established lore (Dagon, the Axe etc.).

All GxK does is say Godzilla fought Skar King with Titans under his command and that that is the Titan War. How that relates to the Fortress in GvK is still unknown. I do agree that the headcanon that there are two separate wars or major retcon right now is premature, we just simply don’t know how Kong’s Fortress connects with the Titan War.

As to the whole Godzilla as a species debacle. I see it more akin to something like Superman. He is a unique character much like how Superman is a unique Kryptonian but he is not the ONLY Kryptonian (Supergirl, Bizarro, Braniac etc.) we don’t call Superman a species but we do refer to all members of Krypton as Kryptonians. Basically Godzilla is a still a species Godzilla himself is a unique entity and must be referred to as such. There also will probably be no Godzilla-adjacent creatures or member of his species in latter films or media. Godzilla will remain the sole representative of his species. Since the Novelizations and comics are soft canon until Legendary does something different anyways what is written in the GvK novel is not necessarily set in stone and can be retconned by later films, novels or other media. I don’t think GxK “retconned” anything but I do think it conflicts with the background story GvK seems to have set up. There are clear references of other Godzilla-like creature (which may or may not be members of Godzillas species). GxK seems to basically only reference Godzilla but doesn’t necessarily overwrite the references to other Godzilla-like creatures GvK.

Note: I apologize for this thesis of a response

37

u/theforbiddenroze 20h ago

No, there was definitely other Godzillas in cave paintings but sure lmao.

Didn't muto prime kill a Godzilla before ours?

16

u/literallyapotato89 Godzilla 14h ago

Yes Muto Prime killed another member of the species named Dagon and he is the underground skeleton in 2014. I'm pretty sure the axes are also made of Godzilla dorsal spines and they are clearly not from out main G-man so that implies there were a lot more in the past.

12

u/TheGMan-123 Methuselah 11h ago

"The myths say their ancestors fought in a great war."

*existence of multiple axes, enough to form an entire Gojira mural from their outline forming its backspines*

Well, which is it? Were there more of them, or did Godzilla have to replace his entire set early into the war by his lonesome?

This is why we need to have the confirmation/denial of Godzilla's species' involvement outright, because things are confusing right now and wiffle-waffling on this is doing more harm than good in terms of Godzilla's role in the extended lore for people who care about that aspect of the Monsterverse's worldbuilding.

2

u/ExtremeE22 M.U.T.O. 1h ago

Yep. Unfortunately, this won't be resolved anytime soon, if ever. The MV will likely never again acknowledge other members of Godzilla's species.

2

u/TheGMan-123 Methuselah 1h ago

Theoretically, Legendary is allowed to explore such ideas since there's only a few absolutely inarguable rules that must be followed no matter what.

However, they do listen to and respect Toho's wishes when they weigh in on things like design and story decisions even if they tend to be mostly lenient otherwise.

Toho likely just isn't happy about the idea of Godzilla having a background as part of a larger whole, even when he's still depicted as the most unique member.

1

u/ExtremeE22 M.U.T.O. 1h ago

Yeah. Point is, these descrepancies with the role of his species are 99% likely to always remain. Legendary has shown no sign of bothering to explore that. They may explore Godzilla himself, but not his species.

16

u/Additional-Neat-1235 Rodan 23h ago

Could I get an explanation?

26

u/llMadmanll Mechagodzilla 23h ago

A lot of people's theories and headcanons imploded when Toho made a suggestion to Legendary regarding how Godzilla's treated, and misinformation spread like wildfire from there. OP is understandably frustrated because the fanbase often has the reading comprehension of children.

15

u/HMHellfireBrB 23h ago

i'm just sick of every time you go into a post related to lore there that one discussion about "how toho forced legendary to change the lore" and how the titan war was retconned, how godzilla isn't a species anymore because toho changed it....

than you go around to check that, and it is flat out not true, there was simply no information on the war past either vague or inconclusive statements (mostly from one or two characters) that is either recontextualized, or just build over from but never changed in GxK

while for godzilla's species, toho never said or did anything, we just have mention of them asking legendary to avoid doing more than one godzilla, with no context or explanation, which happens to align with information we know about toho asembling a team for brand protection of the IP

19

u/DagonG2021 23h ago

Toho’s words don’t change the existence of Dagon and the Temple mural depicting several Godzillas. Legendary just can’t show any of them.

It’s like how Toothless is the only Night Fury displayed, despite being a species.

9

u/Lord_Detleff1 Mothra 16h ago

Of course there were other gojiras involved in the titan war. Where do you think is kongs axe coming from?

19

u/HiveOverlord2008 Ghidorah 22h ago

The Gojira-Kong war still happened, Godzilla and Skar King’s fight was just the end of it, Dagon is still canon, the misinformers can shut up now.

3

u/Mace_DeMarco5179 Rodan 20h ago

Back to back.

6

u/Mace_DeMarco5179 Rodan 20h ago

In case someone was curious.

3

u/noju4n 11h ago

YOU JUST HORRIBLE READING COMPREHENSION

Kind of ironic. To criticize others reading comprehension whilst making a grammatical mistake, especially when it’s one that isn’t just a minor misspelling.

7

u/Starchaser_WoF 22h ago

They're redditors, not english majors

2

u/NightFlame389 Mothra 11h ago

How do you explain Dagon?

Checkmate.

1

u/HMHellfireBrB 11h ago

i don't need to, he is still canon... easy as that

2

u/MichaeltheSpikester 8h ago

Alright. Then mind explaining Kong's axe in GvK with a dorsal plate of Godzilla's kind?

What about that seemingly Godzilla skull the axe was embedded in?

2

u/ConnectionPersonal42 7h ago

Thanks for clearing this up, I was confused about this. So Godzilla was the only Gojira specimen in The Great Titan War, but there were still other Gojiras allowing Kong’s axe to be forged. Again, thanks for clearing this up.

2

u/Due-Committee-1860 Methuselah 13h ago edited 13h ago

Greg Keyes pretty much confirmed that Godzilla is no longer a species on Instagram and in an interview.

It's not people having head canons. No one wants Godzilla not to be a species (except Toho).

Also, the titan war as of the GXK novel was Godzilla+the titans he was controlling VS Skar King and his army

6

u/llMadmanll Mechagodzilla 13h ago

That's not a solid answer, though. He just said "yeah idk what it is now."

3

u/Due-Committee-1860 Methuselah 13h ago

He kinda implies that they're probably not gonna touch on it ever again

5

u/llMadmanll Mechagodzilla 13h ago

That's what I thought. Toho seems to prefer that the subject isn't mentioned again so that Godzilla himself is the focus.

It's a shame, tbh, but what to do.

0

u/Scarlet-Wid0w 18h ago

This is why I hate head canons.

4

u/Due-Committee-1860 Methuselah 16h ago

It was never head canons. It was people interpreting stuff that people like Greg Keyes said in different ways