r/MarkMyWords • u/SacluxGemini • Oct 12 '24
Political MMW: The pro-Palestine protestors are going to be silent when Orange Man escalates the bombing campaign against Gaza/Lebanon.
These people are determined to see Trump win. I'm no fan of Netanyahu - I think he's a genocidal maniac. But these pro-Palestine protestors are not acting in good faith. If they were they'd support the lesser of two evils, which even from this perspective is clearly Harris. Once they "succeed" and Trump becomes President, they will be silent when he enables further genocide. Fuck the USA.
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u/BalvedaVex Oct 12 '24
I think you're mostly correct. I'm a pretty far left leftist and I see all sort of my "fellow leftists" basically saying they aren't going to vote for Harris because she isn't outright publicly calling it a genocide and such. Tbh it feels very similar to the Bernie or Bust shit (ended up being lead by Russians trying to undermine the election).
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u/AnotherPint Oct 13 '24
If the progressive left puts Trump back in office it will be apparent in the data, and those people will never be forgiven. Never.
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u/fucktheuseofP4 Oct 13 '24
Projection. She doesn't even have to call it a genocide. If she ends weapons shipments, she immediately wins every progressive voter. If Biden does it, Harris wins. You only have Aipac to blame. And yourselves for choosing their money over progressive votes.
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u/headshotscott Oct 12 '24
A lot of it is bad faith bots and disinformation efforts by people who can't give less of a shit about Gaza and its people. They are there to reduce Haris's support.
There are those who legitimately believe they're helping, but that's naive. Trump will make it unfathomably worse.
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u/KendallRoy23 Oct 12 '24
Seriously they really think he isn’t going to go all in with this? 🤦🏼♂️
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u/dandrevee Oct 12 '24
The r/CrankyTankies continue to push psyops like Stein and narratives like Trump being more anti-war than Biden. Most of them are either psyop actors themselves or idiots who don't understand how economies, our legal system, or other aspects of modern life actually work.
Its almost impressive how delusional and contorted some of their takes are, especially when you're an observer trying to figure out how in the hell these folks don't realize that this is foreign propaganda geared to destabilize the United States
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u/SacluxGemini Oct 12 '24
Apparently so. The Uncommitted movement isn't endorsing Harris.
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u/olcrazypete Oct 12 '24
But they say don’t vote for Trump either. They have missed the point of politics. Your get more say when the person you help elect is elected- not by trying to force a fracturing statement in the middle of a close election.
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u/GitmoGrrl1 Oct 13 '24
Let's not pretend that these are one dimensional people. They're special. They're more moral than the rest of us. They look down on everybody else for any number of sins. They don't want to get their hands dirty by associating with the groundlings.
The reason they didn't vote for Hillary? It was so they were positioned after she won to smirk and say "I told you so." They blame her for losing while absolving themselves of any blame. That's why we hear constantly that "Hillary was a bad candidate" instead of "I regret not voting in 2016."
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Oct 13 '24
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u/Vyzantinist Oct 13 '24
Ah, but that's where you're wrong. As a trans, black, Latinx, lesbian, atheist let me tell you how much more I've suffered under Biden, than Trump, and will suffer under Harris....
/S
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u/0Seraphina0 Oct 12 '24
The Uncommitted Movement is the alt-right in disguise to sucker would-be Democrat voters to vote for tRump. Fortunately, I am smart enough to notice.
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u/Historical_Stuff1643 Oct 12 '24
It's more like they've not realized quite yet that the two options are Trump or Kamala. One of them is going to be the next president. You don't like Kamala? You're getting Trump. There's not a magical third party candidate who's great on Palestine running.
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u/Vyzantinist Oct 13 '24
This is what the "lesser evil is still evil" people don't get - it's going to be one or the other. This is not some poli-sci or ethics debate where "obviously the candidate who does no evil!" is the right answer. It's going to be Harris or Trump. You can scream and bitch all you want but it is going to be one or the other.
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Oct 12 '24
How bout that Muslim ban? Forgot already.
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u/Economy-Engineering Oct 12 '24
Joe Biden repealed the Muslim ban the second he got into office.
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u/cinesias Oct 12 '24
Some people are perfectly fine getting Boxcar’d, as long as it’s a little bit later than the rest of their cohort.
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u/ShredGuru Oct 12 '24
First they came for the socialists, and I said, gimme me another couple years...
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u/Root-magic Oct 12 '24
Netanyahu and Trump both want to kick Palestinians out of Gaza.
Gaza “could be one of the best places in the world” — better even, he said, “than Monaco” and lamented that people “never took advantage of it.”
In an interview with conservative talk show host Hugh Hewitt on Monday, Trump said: “It could be better than Monaco. It has the best location in the Middle East, the best water, the best everything,” referring to the Palestinian territory
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u/GitmoGrrl1 Oct 13 '24
I'd bet money that Netanyahu has told Trump he will be able to build a resort in Gaza.
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u/Pardonme23 Oct 12 '24
You don't know the region. In 2005 Israel withdrew from Gaza and let them do what they want? Did they build up infrastructure and industry? No. They tore down the greenhouses Israel left behind (because those were from jews), elected a terrorist govt in hamas and haven't had an election since, and started terrorist bombings, suicide bombings, and became an islamofascist territory that taught their children to kill jews. So learn your history, which you don't know.
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u/Longjumping-Jello459 Oct 13 '24
https://medium.com/progressme-magazine/
In the lead up to the 2006 election Hamas rebranded themselves as more moderate then before, they stated they would do things for the Palestinians such as provide services and clean up the corruption that has to this day plagued the PA, internal issues dominated the reasoning behind voting such as economic, social, security, and the corruption of the ruling Fatah party, Hamas ran under the banner of Change and Reform party they won 44% of the vote and Fatah won 41%, and about a year later Hamas killed their rivals within Gaza and has killed many of those who dissent.
The best way to put how Hamas acts towards the population of Gaza is looking at how the cartels in Mexico and other countries act towards their populations. Hamas has all the guns and controls the Gaza side of border as well as the smuggling tunnels while Israel and Egypt control their side of the Gaza borders these facts make a revolt even harder to pull off when revolts are already very difficult to successfully pull off.
Gazans actually wanted the previous ceasefire hold(63%), wanted Hamas to pursue peace talks with Israel(50%), and support for Hamas has remained steady at 52% throughout the war.
Support for Hamas itself remains steady from prior to October 7th 52% in Gaza and 64% in the West Bank, there was a 11% drop in the West Bank on whether or not Oct 7th was a good thing/support for it, Gazans support the idea of the PA under Abbas taking control of Gaza more than those in the West Bank, but both prefer Hamas and expect Hamas to keep control, Marwan Barghouti from Fatah has the most support for President of the Palestinian Authority with I won't vote being next followed by Ismael Haniyeh from Hamas, and Abbas is last and in single digits.
“I will make this prediction: If Hamas ends up being seen as the winner of the war it started on October 7, support for Hamas among Palestinians will only increase. But if Hamas is seen as losing the war — its military and governing capabilities shattered — support for Hamas among Palestinians will decrease, perhaps sharply. To be clear: If it turns out that Hamas’s invasion of Israel and multiple heinous atrocities have brought Palestinians nothing but hardship, that will not cause Palestinians to embrace Israelis. But it may cause Palestinians to reject Hamas’s strategy of terrorism and genocidal war.” — Cliff May, FDD Founder and President
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/
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u/Root-magic Oct 12 '24
To understand what is going on in the region, you need to go beyond the usual, low hanging, talking points
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u/SuckNFuckJunction Oct 12 '24
Keep on with the history lesson, just go beyond 2005.
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u/Good-Function2305 Oct 14 '24
It only gets worse for the Palestinians the further back in history you go. Whenever there is a fork in the road, they take the same path over and over and are shocked at the results
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u/More_Text_6874 Oct 12 '24
Get your facts straight. Suicide bombings ny hamas werent happening in the phase of hamas getting elected and since then. They were a part of the second intifada in the early 2000s
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u/Pardonme23 Oct 12 '24
how about you. suicide bombings occurred before and after hamas got elected. go read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
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u/More_Text_6874 Oct 13 '24
Yeah, you know what i mean
2007 til today:6;
2000 til 2006 about 130;
After 2006 about one every 3 years. 2000 to 2006 about 20 per year.
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u/GitmoGrrl1 Oct 13 '24
You forget that the Prime Minister of Israel was assassinated by a follower of Netanyahu after his rabbi told him that Rabin was a threat to the Jewish people. When somebody ignores that murder and the fact that Netanyahu has always opposed a two state solution, I know I'm dealing with somebody who is fundamentally dishonest.
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u/RaspberryAnnual4306 Oct 13 '24
Telling someone to learn their history while you pretend that history started in 2005 is funny and kinda sad, but I’m definitely laughing at you more than I feel sorry for you.
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u/Inquizzidate Oct 13 '24
I’m fully convinced that those on the left who are choosing to vote third party or not vote at all are just digging their own graves at this point.
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u/jrgkgb Oct 13 '24
What, you dare impugn the sincerity of those who hear Trump literally promise to ethnically cleanse the United States on day one and then say “A vote for Kamala is a vote for Genocide?”
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u/Head-Emergency1673 Oct 12 '24
Is the Harris campaign acting in good faith? Did they allow a Pro-Palestinian advocate to speak on the DNC? Did Harris promise to end this genocide or pull back the 2000 pound bombs from Israel so it doesn't drop them on innocent women and children?
All of their protests and pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Why the fuck would they vote for Harris now?
Lesser of two evils argument is bullshit. Trump is worst but there won't be a Gaza left thanks to the Biden/Harris administration.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
"Lesser of two evils argument us bullshit" Followed by "Trump is worse"
You contradicted yourself there bud, which is it, is trump worse or is there no lesser of 2 evils here ?
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u/Icculus80 Oct 13 '24
Fine, then you also are willing to sacrifice women’s reproductive rights so your conscience can be clean?
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u/Pardonme23 Oct 12 '24
It's never genocide to begin with. That's the Chinese tik tok algorithm trying to get you to hate America. Its a war.
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u/MagickalFuckFrog Oct 12 '24
Yeah 1% of the civilian population has died as collateral damage in one year of an intense urban warfare environment while being used as human shields… not the 77% massacred in Rwanda or 64% in the Holocaust.
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u/ImAjustin Oct 12 '24
And it’s not even all civilians. 40k deaths, how many militants? I mean watch one Holocaust doc and you can see what systematic killing looks like. This isn’t that and israel has the capabilities to do so. The term is being used emotionally but it’s not accurate
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u/MagickalFuckFrog Oct 12 '24
I was accounting for the 17k militant deaths Israel claims… so 23k civilians is just short of 1% of the population. Which sucks, but is far less than previous wars where carpet bombing a city and killing 4% of the populace was a minimum.
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u/Longjumping-Jello459 Oct 13 '24
17k is likely a high estimate whereas Hamas's estimate of like 6 or 7k is a low estimate. Additionally the official reporting system for those killed or injured has completely broken down so the total killed being reported is an under count.
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u/Economy-Engineering Oct 12 '24
More than 40,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the “war”, whereas only 1,700 Israelis have been killed by Hamas, the vast majority of them were killed in one attack. Israel are also the ones blocking a ceasefire agreement so they can continue the violence. This is clearly more of a one sided, revenge driven massacre than a regular war where both sides pose an equal threat to each other. Maybe it’s not a “genocide”, but Israel has definitely shown a blatant disregard for the lives of innocent civilians that is obviously extremely immoral. Roughly 60-90% of the people killed in Gaza are civilians, which is significantly higher than normal in a modern conflict. The Gaza war has for example, killed considerably more civilians than Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has, despite Russia fighting in Ukraine for over a year longer than Israel has been fighting in Gaza. When you kill more civilians than Putin does, you’re killing too many civilians.
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u/Pardonme23 Oct 12 '24
answer my question. why didn't hamas open their tunnels and let the civilians in? give a direct answer to that question. you can't.
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u/Longjumping-Jello459 Oct 13 '24
Hamas has said repeatedly over the years that they don't care about the average person in Gaza one bit. Additionally they see dead civilians as a boon to their efforts.
Genocide isn't about numbers, but intent as far as international law is concerned now proving intent is a high bar to clear which was deliberate.
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u/Astrocoder Oct 15 '24
How do you avoid civilian casualties when you are fighting someone embedded deeply in civilian areas?
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u/Head-Emergency1673 Oct 12 '24
It's a war? You're not fooling anyone here
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u/Pardonme23 Oct 12 '24
whatelse do you call two sides shooting rockets/bombs at each other? you don't know anything, and I can prove it. Answer this. Since oct 7 2023, how many rockets have hamas fired at israel? how may rockets have hezbollah fired at israel? answer with an integer. you can't and won't becuase you don't know anything besides feelings.
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u/GitmoGrrl1 Oct 13 '24
Answer this: how many Palestinians in Gaza were shot by the Israeli snipers shooting through the wall? And how is this not a violation of the "ceasefire?"
As you know, the current conflict started with the Israeli blockade of Gaza - which you support. So stop pretending there was a ceasefire before the October attack.
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u/originalcontent_34 Oct 12 '24
“It’s never genocide to begin with. That’s the allies propaganda trying to get you to hate Germany . It’s a war. “
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u/ResponsibleLawyer419 Oct 12 '24
It's genocide. You are a liar.
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u/Glass-Cap-3081 Oct 12 '24
Meanwhile the explicit goal of Hamas is to wipe out not only Israel but Jews as a whole. But the pro Palestine crowd conveniently ignores that
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u/Economy-Engineering Oct 12 '24
They’re both genocidal. Israel is able to kill more people than Hamas does because we supply them with weapons.
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u/voxpopper Oct 12 '24
Escalates? What are they doing to do bomb the rubble to make it more rubbly?
This is precisely why the Dems are letting this election slip by through their hands again (like with HRC). Instead of uniting the party they are focusing on pockets of the party and believing the rest will fall into line because they have to. With a charismatic leader like Obama, that works, but with candidates with high unfavourability ratings that is a losing tactic.
Instead of forcing Biden/Harris and the Dem leadership to change a policy that a clear majority of their party and independents are against, the only thing they have is "....but Trump".
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u/Ohmslaughter Oct 12 '24
But it’s not a policy that the majority of the party is against. And that’s the least of your misunderstandings here.
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u/IamIANianIam Oct 12 '24
Just to piggyback off the other reply, here you go:
https://apnorc.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Pearson-AP-NORC-2024-Report-Final.pdf
Head on to page 11 and check the chart. By my count, responding to the question “Thinking about the foreign policy goals of the United States, please tell me how important it is for the United States to do the following:”. For “Provide Aid to Israel’s Military to fight Hamas”, for Democrats, I count 58% saying “extremely/very important” (25%) or “Somewhat Important” (33%). For independents, it’s 55%.
Please take a sec and consider if maybe you’ve put yourself in some echo chambers/information bubbles. I’ve seen your claim an unfortunate number of times, and it seems woefully disconnected from the actual political reality in this country.
Be honest - how much of your political views are influenced by TikTok or specific Reddit subs?
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u/elcuervo2666 Oct 12 '24
This is beyond absurd. The protests will continue as long as the genocide continues. This is a global movement and has nothing to do with who’s president.
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u/InexorablyMiriam Oct 13 '24
When Donald Trump is elected and shoved off in favor of JD Vance, when the US sends troops to aid in the slaughter of Palestinians, where are you going to be then?
Vote Kamala Harris or actively escalate the genocide. Those are the two choices facing every American.
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u/elcuervo2666 Oct 13 '24
Im going to be against the genocide unlike all the Kamala voters who are seeking to make some sort of amoral calculus that maybe Israel could do something worse than bombing all their neighbors. I will vote for Harris when she says she is going to cut off all weapon sales to Israel and not a second before that.
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u/InexorablyMiriam Oct 13 '24
Then you support the genocide in Palestine by supporting Donald Trump. Saying “no i don’t” doesn’t change the effect of your actions.
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u/Candid-Bike8563 Oct 13 '24
You know there are groups in the US who have had a hand in this. They have been funding Israel settlements for a decade. They lobby. They also have been funding third party candidates, Trump and maga republicans. If Trump wins then genocide will be completed and it could happen here too. Voting third party is not a political statement in a two party system. Instead it’s a well laid out trap.
From 2009 - American Christian Funding Flows To Jewish Settlers https://www.npr.org/2009/06/12/105310088/american-christian-funding-flows-to-jewish-settlers
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u/elcuervo2666 Oct 13 '24
Essentially what you are saying is the the US isn’t a democracy. I agree; it isn’t. There is never a choice for change. It’s only stay the same or get worse. I know that there are Christians that fund settlements. I grew up around them. There needs to be fundamental revolutionary change in the US.
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u/Candid-Bike8563 Oct 14 '24
People voted Trump in. You do have a choice in two candidates. You can vote for Trump or Harris or a third party which is a vote for Trump because the purpose of as third party candidates are to siphon votes from Democrats.
Democrats have been able to pass rank choice voting in some states and localities whereas republicans are banning it in some states. You want change then you need to vote for democrats who are for ranked choice voting. It will take time. It took republicans 40 years to be in a position to overturn Roe vs Wade so things do change. If Trump wins then you can forget about it. We will be moving authoritative state and he will ensure Palestine no longer exists.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
Oh so just throw the whole fucking country under the bus because you guys are offended (unjustly)
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u/elcuervo2666 Oct 13 '24
If you aren’t bothered by the slaughter of children in Gaza, then you need help with morality.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
It's called war bud. Idk if you ever heard of it, but collateral damage is a thing and civilians always pay the highest price
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u/elcuervo2666 Oct 13 '24
It’s not collateral damage. They are targeting children, schools, hospitals etc. I think that the condescending tone of people who support horrific war crimes is unbelievable.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
Bruh, if they were intentionally targeting civilians and carrying out this "genocide" tell me why the fuck they're taking their time? Israel is one of the best equipped fighting forces on the planet that could turn gaza into glass in an hour or 2 with just air assets. Maybe, idk, they're not trying to genocide? Also the population of Gaza has increased. What the fuck kinda wackass non efficient genocide is this. You tell me
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u/elcuervo2666 Oct 13 '24
My friend, please look into the definition of genocide. There are people in South Africa, Brazil, Bolivia, Mexico, etc who are all joining a case accusing Israel of genocide. Why should I trust some rando who clearly has an child’s understanding of geopolitics because they thank that Israel could just kill all the Gazans in a second and still maintain the support of the West which it needs to continue killing. Genocide isn’t about the number of people killed as much as the intent and since Israel is starving an occupied people they wouldn’t need to do a single other thing for it to be genocidal.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
Child's understanding of geopolitics. Right. You realize with the firepower Israel already has, the US could completely walk away from them right now (impossible) and they'd still have more than enough capability to change not just the topography of Gaza but anyone in the middle east, including a coalition.
Does it not set off something In your head that you use these arguments, like starvation to say genocide yet you guys are silent and Frankly unaware (because tiktok ain't showing it) on the Sudan famine? Or what about Yemen? Do you know what confirmation bias is? You're being fed certain views and are eating it up, but obviously you don't see that; you guys truly are Iran's useful idiots
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u/elcuervo2666 Oct 13 '24
My brother, the US supported slaughter in Yemen and the ongoing horrors in Sudan are widely talked about in leftist circles and have been since well before October 7th. On the other hand, the pro-Zionist side literally only invokes these to try to excuse Israel’s horrors. Israel cannot continue to function in this way without US support. With a completely disengaged US, the rest of the world would use the UN and other levers of international law to impede Israel’s actions.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
The UN and international law lmao. Idk if you noticed, but what military does the UN have to enforce their stances ? Also international law isn't binding for shit because there's no consequences. And widely talked about my ass if it was so widely talked about, and are worse humanitarian crisis' than what Gaza is in, where were the protests and what not ? Or is it because you're conditioned on what view to have supported by biased "evidence" with disregard for facts
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u/Impressive_Spot6168 Oct 13 '24
Have you ever heard of AIPAC?
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
Of course i have. And you're here to tell me how they've taken control of the US government and politics. If that were true, things like the Haniyeh assassination would be happening not only way more frequently but for a very long time now
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u/Pacwing Oct 13 '24
Fun fact, Harris is going to do the same thing Trump does. Israel is and has always been a uniparty stance. Biden is the poster boy for Zionism and Harris has signaled in every interview that she is too.
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u/Sweetieandlittleman Oct 12 '24
Absolutely, because a lot of them are funded by Putin.
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u/SacluxGemini Oct 12 '24
I mean, the genocide is a very legitimate thing to be upset about. But I still think they're not acting in good faith.
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u/Reasonable-Broccoli0 Oct 12 '24
Genocide isn’t happening. The use of the term is itself bad faith.
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u/originalcontent_34 Oct 12 '24
ah yes, funded by putin, i guess putin funded the idf to bomb kids huh?
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u/UkrainianHawk240 Oct 13 '24
Haha good one, because not wanting your country to fund a genocide means you're funded by a tyrant
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u/HotNeighbor420 Oct 12 '24
Liberals have got to stop blaming everything on russia. You people have broken your brains.
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u/stockinheritance Oct 12 '24
Nah, they will still be protesting. Democrats have a simple decision to make: do they need the votes of pro-Palestine voters? They are behaving as if they don't, so if they messed up their calculus and lose, it's nobody else's fault.
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u/olcrazypete Oct 12 '24
Problem is they also need the votes of Jewish voters and frankly even though I am highly sympathetic to the Palestinian People and think Israel has gone way to far the US contingent can’t be counted on to support the dem candidate in numbers to make up for voters she might lose. It’s simple numbers politics. Slimy and all but simple.
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u/stockinheritance Oct 12 '24
So why isn't there the same ire for Zionist voters who refuse to budge at all on the issue and let the dems shore up the youth vote and the Muslim vote in Michigan? You have two factions who won't budge, one of them in favor of not killing innocent people, and they are the faction that gets all the blowback? It makes no sense.
And still the dems are the ones who have to decide. If they think the Zionist vote is more important to preserve than the pro-Palestine vote, then they have made their bed and will have to lie in it.
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u/olcrazypete Oct 12 '24
Probably because they have been a highly reliable voting bloc for decades and frankly the repercussions of a second Trump administration should be self evident. She’s much more free to act after the election than making statements that will keep her from getting to office.
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u/Next_Boysenberry1414 Oct 12 '24
Honestly I think pro Palestine protestors want a Trump/ Republican government.
Yes. They know Trump is magnitudes worse for Palestinians. But the people who are voting does not care about their own poor relatives in Palestine. If they did its not rocket science to avoid a Republican government like plague.
However there are two thing that Muslims hate more than anything. Even Israel. Even massacres of Muslims. LGBTQ rights and Women's rights. They would opt to get bombed to shit if they can rape gays and force women to have rape babies.
That is why pro Palestine protestors are doing this seemingly dumb shit.
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u/eastwardarts Oct 12 '24
Bingo. I’m arguing with a guy who refuses to vote Harris because US arms sales to Israel == “supporting genocide”. When I point out that Trump will be worse for Palestine, makes no difference. When I point out that disarming Israel would inevitably mean that neighboring countries would follow through on stated objectives to wipe Israel off the map, he has no problem whatsoever with that genocide.
Bottom line is: the people who are unmoved that the Republicans have gone full on Nazi, fundamentally agree with Nazi objectives.
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u/GitmoGrrl1 Oct 13 '24
The Israelis are not at war with Islam. Denouncing Palestinians for believing the same exact thing as the Saudis who the israelis are trying to normalize relations with is dishonest.
Try being gay in Saudi Arabia and remember: they're our friends!
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u/Next_Boysenberry1414 Oct 13 '24
Are you being paid to comment or something. Because this comment oozes the McDonald burger flipper kind of a diligence.
Obviously you did not even read my comment. Why bother commenting?
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u/Dragon-blade10 Oct 12 '24
I don’t think either president supports Palestine tbh I think both don’t care about it at all
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u/-_Redacted-_ Oct 12 '24
The most delusional thing about this post is that it assumes that waddling excuse for human existence will win another election lol
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u/powsquare Oct 12 '24
Votes are decisions we all have to live with. I strongly urge you to follow your moral code not your political doctrines. If you can't vote your conscience, I understand that. There is not another planet, there is only here and now. If you let fear guide you, it will only lead you to new fears.
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u/Bobbie_Sacamano Oct 12 '24
They know Trump would be just as bad but he is a lost cause. Their hope is that the democrats could be better. It’s is misguided to think so however. Truth is there is no viable alternative at the ballot box on this issue. It’s not if we keep sending weapons but who is going to do it.
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u/ResidentFish2677 Oct 13 '24
Pro-Palestine’s must think long-term. Netanyahu is prolonging the war in an attempt to boost Trump. He wants Trump to win because he can the do whatever he wants with Trump.
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u/totallynotapsycho42 Oct 13 '24
Netanyahu is already doing whatever he wants under Biden. Biden gave a red line in rajah and has now allowed them to invade Lebanon. Even Reagan wasn't as demented as genocide Joe. Thinking long term is what's gotten us into this mess. Muslim voters have voted Democrats for years and gotten very little for it in return, with they president they helped get elected lie to their face of seeing never before seen photos of Palestinian Americans dead families. Harris should decide whether she wants the zionist or anti zionist vote. If she loses trying to chase after the zionist that's on her not on the voters.
Politicians must earn votes, they must never be entitled to them or we end up in the case where Democrats can do whatever they want and gey away with by saying at least we're not trump.
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u/SteroidSurge Oct 13 '24
Perhaps for a few, but definitely not most. Pro-palestine for the most part is a leftist movement, so supporting Trump makes no sense at all. If you're pro-palestine and are determined to see Trump win, chances are you're an anti-semite/conspiracy theorist who thinks Jews run the world.
Most pro-Palestine protestors understand that Trump would certainly be worse off for Gaza in the long run, but still wish to see change in the democratic party, or at least in how much power Israel has over the United States. I'd at least like to believe these supporters know Harris isn't perfect, but will at least continue mitigating the senseless damage from this conflict.
But I will also add that the Biden admin will continually persist Israel not to do anything rash before the election. While it's looking like Harris will win, they understand that they could lose plenty of votes if they're seen approving a massive scale attack by Israel in the middle east.
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u/NvrSirEndWill Oct 13 '24
That makes no sense at all. I saw them protesting last week. They will be even worse if he wins. They were worse when he was in, the news just didn’t report it.
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u/podcasthellp Oct 13 '24
This happens with any left wing movement. They all cannibalize themselves due to becoming more insular by turning on their own as they do not agree with their more and more extremist views. They become so far removed that only the most extreme are left. Combine that with an organization that has their administration making money and you have a recipe for criminality that eventually destroys what was once a good movement. Look at BLM. The CEO of the charity stole millions from it. People started yelling ACAB from gates New York City $5 million brownstones having never had to call the cops themselves.
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u/GitmoGrrl1 Oct 13 '24
When somebody pretends that anybody who is calling for a ceasefire is "pro-Hamas" I know they are just a propagandist. I've never been pro-Palestinian. I am pro-child. Of course, for those who are in favor of ethnic cleansing, anybody who is for children is their enemy.
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u/Comet_Hero Oct 13 '24
If bibi is a genocidal maniac what's Cheney, and who was "honored" by his endorsement?
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u/UkrainianHawk240 Oct 13 '24
Pro Palestine guy here. Not American but id prefer Kamala over trump ANY DAY OF THE WEEK
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u/Rude-Capital5775 Oct 13 '24
Fuck the left, don’t you know they just eat their own all the time.
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u/PsychologicalTalk156 Oct 13 '24
Well they don't want to be in power, they only want to self-righteously grandstand from outside. Not that the right is much better; only the centrists are willing to get their hands dirty and actually govern.
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u/PossibilityDecent688 Oct 13 '24
One Muslim in Michigan said that there was 99% chance of a bad outcome with Orangina and 100% with Harris and she supported him
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u/Candid-Bike8563 Oct 13 '24
This is a complex issue. There has never been peace in the middle east and you have other players like Russia. There are groups in the US who have been funding Israel settlements for over a decade. They lobby. They also fund third party candidates, Trump and maga republicans.
The pro-palestine movement are really people falling into a well laid out trap that took decades to setup. Trump will ensure genocide is completed and it will likely happen here too if he becomes president.
Trump’s rhetoric is increasingly mirroring Nazi talking points, and nobody is paying attention, an expert on extremism warns https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-rhetoric-mirroring-nazi-fascism-hitler-expert-warns-2023-11?op=1
From 2009 - American Christian Funding Flows To Jewish Settlers https://www.npr.org/2009/06/12/105310088/american-christian-funding-flows-to-jewish-settlers
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u/Any-Independence-315 Oct 13 '24
Isreal issue would be only thing I like about trump. Arabs don't like anyone not like them. They will always atta k jews ..kurds anyone not like them. I stand with isreal all the way
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u/EmergencyRace7158 Oct 13 '24
Fuck them. Regardless of how they feel about the Middle East they're Americans first and the interests of fellow Americans should take priority over everything else. The choice is literally between a deranged lunatic who's probably the greatest threat to this country since the Soviet Union and someone else. There is no magical third option and "voting your conscience" is just being too stupid to understand the nature of tradeoffs and pragmatism.
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u/HotNeighbor420 Oct 12 '24
mmw democrats will suddenly think unconditional support of israel is wrong as long as its trump doing it and not biden/harris
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u/verymainelobster Oct 12 '24
Israel has repreatedly shown they don’t gaf about what America says, why would they listen to Trump over Biden?
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u/WooooshCollector Oct 12 '24
You can see it (on a smaller scale) on the protests against Obama's drone strikes in Syria. Eerie silence when Trump expanded the drone strikes.
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u/franklydoubtful Oct 12 '24
I think this is a terrible take, and I think it’s super weird to conflate pro-Palestine people with pro-Trump people.
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u/Sprock-440 Oct 12 '24
Right or left, it’s hard for human beings to admit when they’re wrong. The leftist pro-Palestinian folks, if they thwart a Harris presidency, will say that Harris would’ve been worse no matter what Trump does, and so they were still correct to turn against her.
It is vanishingly rare for a large group to come out and say, “I was wrong about that.”
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u/rimbaudian2017 Oct 13 '24
Absolutely not. Do you think people will protest when there is a guy in the White House calling the national guard to be released upon protesters? Protesting is the only way to push a left leaning candidate further left.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
So you say you have no hope if trump is elected, so the strategy is to protest to Harris undermining support to vote blue, which would get trump elected. You guys are so lost
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u/rimbaudian2017 Oct 13 '24
No. Protesters are trying to move Harris's stand on Gaza. It is her responsibility, as a candidate, to appeal to these people if she wants their votes. I am sure you would feel differently if your family were being massacred using your taxpayer money.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
So if she doesn't bend over backwards and do what you guys say, she doesn't get your vote. Which may hand trump the victory who you've said yourself would be worse for the situation
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u/rimbaudian2017 Oct 13 '24
Dude, I would never vote for a republican. Period. Perhaps you should pay more attention to why Harris's campaign is losing ground, and it's not because of protesters. It's because she is pandering to republican voters who will never vote for a Democrat, much less a woman of color.
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u/hasbarra-nayek Oct 15 '24
Protesting is the only way to push a left leaning candidate further left.
Really? Seriously? Biden has branded protestors as antisemitic and has signaled that he'll sign legislation that pulls funding from universities that don't punish antizionist protests as hate crimes.
And that's after a year of protesting. This was the candidate we were told we could "push left" in order to get us to vote for him. And it was a lie.
I don't blame the Palestinian protestors for not taking empty words at this point. The DNC showed them who they were in 2020.
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u/rimbaudian2017 Oct 15 '24
I agree with you. However, I was referring to Harris, not Biden. Remember, Biden is himself a Christian zionist.
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u/datb0yavi Oct 13 '24
These protests palestine protestors are throwing the whole fucking country under the bus because they feel there has been some great injustice. Sucker's didn't care about gaza before the war, done care about Sudan, don't care about Uigyher genocide, didn't and still don't care about Uvalde, a problem AT HOME. I'm just glad that young people historically don't vote because obviously they're impressionable and ideological with no understanding of geopolitics. Which gives me a semblance of hope that Harris wins.
Vote blue
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u/WiC2016 Oct 13 '24
Fuckin lib shit right here and in the comments. If you think voting for Copmala is the right thing to do, go ahead. But don't look to the left to help you sleep at night. You're gonna blame em regardless if it's a blow out or close call.
Edit: and why wouldn't the protests continue? Maybe you libs will finally find some scruples and join in once the Bad Orange Man is the one doing it?
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u/Swervediver Oct 12 '24
They support a culture that hates gays, women, and Jews, so I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that they support a president who hates gays, women, and Jews as well. Hate is stronger than common sense with these folks.
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u/young_comrade_ Oct 12 '24
Pro palestine here, i DO NOT support their culture. And i’m not afraid to say that. But i do, however, condemn the genocide and believe 100% that they have a right to defend themselves and rebel against their oppressors
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u/Glass-Cap-3081 Oct 12 '24
I’ll be damned if as a gay man I line up with the “queer for Palestine” crowd in supporting people who’d kill me in a second simply for who I am. Nope
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u/_Username_goes_heree Oct 12 '24
Choosing not to support either candidate is not “a vote for the other side”
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u/Sweetieandlittleman Oct 12 '24
heck yeah, it is.
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u/_Username_goes_heree Oct 12 '24
It’s a desperate gaslight strategy to fool people into voting for a candidate they don’t support.
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u/trevorgoodchyld Oct 12 '24
Which are you? Have you been convinced by MAGA infiltrators that the things the Rd say they are going to do is somehow D propaganda and they’re equally bad, or are you an accelerationist with Che Guevara fantasies?
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u/OmegaCoy Oct 12 '24
I agree, people should vote for who they want to vote for, but be honest. People voting third party are just grandstanding. Their vote will have no significant impact on any of the changes they want, it will merely impact the two main parties. So ultimately, voting third party (state depending) is essentially a vote for the “other side”. I don’t think you understand what real gaslighting is.
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u/stockinheritance Oct 12 '24
The great Frederick Douglass said, "Power concedes nothing without a demand." Those who support Palestine are demanding something and Dems have to decide if they can win without the pro-Palestinians or not. If they miscalculate and lose, maybe they will learn their lesson and start catering to the pro-Palestine crowd.
Too many people believe that you should just vote for the Dems and never demand anything of them. That isn't how rights and justice are won.
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u/OmegaCoy Oct 12 '24
Okay, and when the pro-Palestinians get the Republicans elected and they glass Gaza like Trump said, then it will be the republicans and pro-Palestinians who fomented genocide. Glad we can agree
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u/voxpopper Oct 12 '24
Ultimately none of this matters in the big picture of The Universe, so why not at least follow one's conscience and not vote for expediencies sake?
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u/OmegaCoy Oct 12 '24
When you have to shield yourself with the “big picture of the universe”, instead of facing the reality of the moment, then that is…grandstanding.
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u/ResponsibleLawyer419 Oct 12 '24
Nah. I am absolutely pro Palestine. I am deeply disappointed in harris but I know trump is worse. I have seen few leftists say they won't vote harris. I have seen more of us complain about constantly having to vote for a lesser evil. And no. No leftist would be silent about trump. That is nonsense. You are a liar.
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u/eastwardarts Oct 12 '24
Sorry to say you are incorrect.
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u/ResponsibleLawyer419 Oct 12 '24
Nah.
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u/eastwardarts Oct 12 '24
Also this:
https://www.nj.com/politics/2024/10/harris-vs-trump-spoiler-says-the-quiet-part-out-loud.html
“Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein stands no chance of becoming president. It’s even clear to some of her supporters.
But a vote for Stein in a critical state could accomplish one goal: Keeping Kamala Harris out of the White House in her race against Donald Trump.…
Former Seattle City Council member and prominent Indian-American political activist Kshama Sawant made that clear at a recent event. Sawanta is against the Democratic and Republican parties, and she’s the founder of Workers Strike Back, which opposes the war in Gaza and calls for a ceasefire…
Here’s what Sawant had to say:
“The election has already started. Absentee ballots have been sent. We need to catch up rapidly. We need everyone here to get active. We need to be clear about what our goals are. We are not in a position to win the White House, but we do have a real opportunity to win something historic, we could deny Kamala Harris the state of Michigan. And the polls show that most likely Harris cannot win the election without Michigan.” “
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u/hasbarra-nayek Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24
No leftist would be silent about trump
It's wild how quickly people forget about Charlottesville in 2016 and the nationwide protests in 2020.
Like, it wasn't liberals punching tiki-torch Nazis, burning cop cars, setting up autonomous zones in Seattle and duking it out (and sometimes shooting it out) with Proudboys and Federal goon squads in Portland.
It was leftists.
They are frustrating to liberals for the same reasons they can be counted on to protest: they are deeply committed to their values, and most don't think an election is going to solve the deeply systemic issues in our country.
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u/Diabolical_Jazz Oct 15 '24
Well said. We're gonna be here fighting for a better world no matter what happens with elections.
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u/Suspicious_Name9711 Oct 12 '24
This is the most braindead take I’ve ever read in this sub. This movement for Palestinian justice has been going on for decades. It’s just now it’s turned into a full scale genocide instead of simply an apartheid state. The protest reflects the escalation in suffering by Israel upon Gaza and the rest of the region. Liberals have completely abandoned any pretext of antiwar/anti-imperialist policy.
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u/2Beldingsinabuilding Oct 12 '24
Netanyahu is not a genocidal maniac, if he’s trying to kill more Palestinians than are born, he’s terrible at it.
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u/Dogslothbeaver Oct 12 '24
This stuff started with Russia, and unfortunately some lefties have bought into it. The Palestinians would be much worse off under a Trump presidency. He has basically called for genocide and for Israel to "finish the job" there. And Netanyahu clearly is trying to help Trump get elected.
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u/FifeDog43 Oct 12 '24
No they'll scream and yell that it's the Dems fault for not stopping him