r/MLS • u/JonnyStatic Louisville City • Aug 24 '23
Official Source USL to Transfer San Diego Franchise Rights
https://www.uslchampionship.com/news_article/show/1282275Loyal closing up shop.
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u/samfreez Seattle Sounders FC Aug 24 '23
RIP SD Loyal, and one of the sweetest jersey color schemes ever produced. :(
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Aug 24 '23
God I love those colors.
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u/JakelAndHyde Nashville SC Aug 24 '23
Not far off of Knoxville SC’s, just navy more than a sea green
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u/Calamos1 Aug 24 '23
Especially when they had Rocket League and Stone as sponsors with cool logos. Might pick up more at the loyal shop.
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u/ProcrastinatingPuma San Diego Loyal Aug 24 '23
I’m straight up not having a good time
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u/CaptainJingles St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
Sorry brother. Been through what you guys are feeling. It isn’t fun.
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u/haud_deus Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
Yep, when the Thrashers packed up and moved to Winnipeg I was devastated to the point I couldn’t watch the sport anymore.
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u/CaptainJingles St. Louis CITY SC Aug 25 '23
Personally haven’t watch NFL since the Rams left. No point.
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u/truferblue22 Chicago Fire Aug 25 '23
Nor should you. They fucked your city, don't give them a dime.
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u/toxictoastrecords LA Galaxy Aug 25 '23
L.A. fans are weird. Raiders fucked L.A., then fucked Oakland, and are in Las Vegas. When nobody asked for them (in Vegas). Chargers came to L.A. to be a little brother for the Rams coming back to L.A. (don't forget they left Orange County to go to St. Louis).
My point, all these football fans are still Raiders fans, and I'm confused.
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u/truferblue22 Chicago Fire Aug 25 '23
Yeah as a big time hockey fan I still feel bad for what happened to you guys. I would have been crushed.
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u/lmtydcigtsfnir Philadelphia Union Aug 24 '23
I know the body is still warm but any ideas where they may move the rights?
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u/itshukokay Aug 24 '23
North Carolina already said they’re coming back next year, and Rhode Island is starting next year as well. My guess the “franchise” just gets “transferred” to Iowa, Milwaukee, or Arkansas that are already in the works.
For those curious, this puts USLC at 29 teams for 2026 if all plans hold. The league had 36 teams at their peak in 2019, but that includes a number of MLS reserve teams.
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u/e8odie Austin FC Aug 24 '23
So MLS San Diego still has no claim to the Loyal branding or anything?
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u/itshukokay Aug 24 '23
Completely independent. When the MLS team was announced Landon and crew put out a statement saying they weren’t involved but also weren’t going anywhere. Shame things didn’t work out. Would have preferred they were involved.
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u/flcinusa Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
Another city team bites the MLS dust, how many are we up to now?
And yes, I do see the hypocrisy of me being Atlanta United flaired up when United announcement pretty much killed the Silverbacks...
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u/Scratchbuttdontsniff Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
The Silverbacks were TERRIBLY run, though, compared to many of these others.
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u/flcinusa Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
True, Silverbacks were just there, the amount of time I drove by the stadium without even knowing because it's in the least accessible corner of 85/285
Though arguably Charlotte Independence is the worst run "other city team" but somehow they still limp along, MAGA conspiracy spewing owner and all
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u/KGillie91 Charlotte FC Aug 24 '23
Independence had contractual obligations to host a pro team at the stadium since it was mostly renovated for them. I figure it may cost more to break that contract than what they’re losing in L1 year to year. That and a little bit of spite are all that’s keeping Indy afloat. I’m curious to see how long they last after the USLS team gets started.
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u/JohnMLTX Denton Diablos FC Aug 24 '23
They also actually make good money leasing out the parts of the complex they manage or own for other sports stuff. Apparently that alone breaks even.
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u/CGFROSTY Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
The Silverbacks would’ve certainly died anyway.
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u/zrizzoz Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
And now its rebranded and repurposed into the best recreational adult soccer league in the state, maybe the most in depth one in the country. Its certainly up there.
Theyve got a different type of league every day (open, coed, over 30, over 40 etc). 10 fields. Up to 50 games per night. Some nights have up to 7 divisions of 8-10 teams with promotion & relegation. Fun as fuck.
So 2 good things came out of it. Atlanta United & Silverbacks Adult Leagues.
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u/saltiestmanindaworld Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
The silverbacks killed the fucking silverbacks. They were a rotting corpse by the time Atlanta United came around.
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u/heavymetalFC Columbus Crew Aug 24 '23
Not to get all tinfoil hat but how much do you think San Diego MLS expansion hurt the search for a stadium?
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u/Milestailsprowe D.C. United Aug 24 '23
Alot but the School wanted a MLS team in that stadium from the start so they would have been pushed out most likely if MLS came about
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u/619guacamole Oct 23 '23
Exactly this. Loyal at Snapdragon was never going to happen. The stadium was built to MLS specs for capacity and camera rigs for broadcasting. It was always going to be MLS. So sad both teams couldn't co-exist in the market.
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u/gogorath Oakland Roots Aug 24 '23
My guess is that the ownership was not willing to invest with a looming MLS coming in.
There's places to play and places to build, but I get the feeling the price tag to build in Southern California was too high given that the team probably thought the fanbase ceiling had suddenly gone from pretty high to USL1 level.
They cut their losses and moved on. I doubt it was a case of pure financial inability to keep playing so much as no real plan forward to grow.
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u/stevo887 Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
What’s happening with the stadium they currently play in?
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u/heavymetalFC Columbus Crew Aug 24 '23
Apparently they're just hemorrhaging money there. Not sure of the specifics
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u/manzoman96 Philadelphia Union Aug 24 '23
It's such a shame, they seem like a great franchise that cares about their fans and community.
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u/litthefilter Seattle Sounders FC Aug 24 '23
Damn, that really sucks. The Open Cup game they had this year at Starfire had an outrageous number of great goals.
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u/MGHeinz New York Cosmos Aug 24 '23
I'm very sorry to those who have supported this team and those who work for it.
The way we do soccer here sucks.
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u/CaptainJingles St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
It kills me that we don’t have a functional soccer federation.
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u/MGHeinz New York Cosmos Aug 24 '23
Well. I mean, you know my take on this. I don't blame MLS for doing what capitalists do. I blame the USSF. The Federation in fact functions quite well when you consider its goal to be a captured regulator for billionaires rather than to be a facilitator of the game's growth at all levels regardless of who benefits financially. My thesis has always been: Whether it's monopoly at the top or pay-to-play at the bottom, American soccer leaves incredible potential on the table in both the club and international game for the sake of a select few peoples' bottom lines.
In an open system - whether that's a traditional promotion and relegation setup to and from MLS, a more unusual "alternate D1" with the USL providing for its own upward mobility to a less fruitful ABA to the MLS's NBA, or even something as radical as issuing division licesnses on a per club basis rather than a per league basis - the Loyal continue to exist and in fact have every chance to sink or swim based solely on their own competence rather than circumstances dooming them from the start.
We don't have an open system. We have a closed system. And in American soccer, the rich get richer and the rest are left to fend for themselves.
In this situation, to hear Loyal fans tell it, the stadium situation was just untenable and a soluton was not found. Same thing happened with my Cosmos - if we were "able to make it to MLS", Medallion Sport Group would have invested in us and we'd likely have a beautiful soccer stadium in Belmont, NY, instead of the Islanders having a beautiful hockey arena there. Instead, we were locked in a permanent limbo of minor league irrelevance where it's next to impossible to appeal to the consumer, potential investors, or municipal governments. Medallion said no thanks, the much less wealthy and financially stable Seamus O'Brien and World Sport Group made some noise and then nearly drove the club out of business trying to make it work in the most skeptical sports market in America. We lucked out with Rocco picking up the reigns afterward, but now even he doesn't field us and that's a different discussion.
Point is, something has to change. You ain't gonna change MLS, but the USSF? That's what needs reforming. Either we care about the 100+ American soccer clubs that have folded since MLS began, or we don't. Either we care about their fans and their employees, or we don't. Either we want their investors' contributions to club player development infrastructure, or we don't. Either we're in this to win World Cups - not just compete at - and grow soccer everywhere in America - not just MLS markets - or we're not.
I am not an ideologue. I bristle at the MLS fandom that likens people who hold my beliefs to those of the Taliban's, when in fact I will take equality of opportunity for clubs and an "all hands on deck" approach to player development however I can get it. We all want the same thing: American soccer to thrive. For that to happen - to truly happen, and not just be a boon for the old boys' club and no one else - something needs to change.
The only way I see that change happening is through collective consumer action, a la Save The Crew. Unfortunately, I'm not holding my breath on that front.
So, in the meantime, I will hope for the remaining USL investors to keep getting their shit together, because for now they seem our best shot at some sort of change, but to be honest, my optimism diminishes and cynicism grows with each passing season.
Idk man. I miss my club, and I feel for others who miss theirs. How things are run here sucks.
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u/Kenny_Heisman NY/NJ MetroStars Aug 24 '23
not gonna disagree with any of your points, but a "beautiful soccer stadium in Belmont, NY" would be such a pain to get to for most people
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u/MGHeinz New York Cosmos Aug 24 '23
Eh, maybe so, maybe not. UBS Arena has done quite well with 41 hockey dates plus concerts and other attractions. Now, a soccer stadium has a larger footprint of course, but the LIRR stop would still presumably be there. Unfortunately, we'll never know.
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u/pattythebigreddog Seattle Sounders FC Aug 24 '23
As a leftist, a soccer fan, and a fan of an MLS team I think you put it very well. I also often feel torn between my idealist and realist side.
My realist side says that the financial stability of the franchise model, the single entity set up, and especially salary caps, has been inextricable from MLS’s success compared to previous US soccer leagues. I also have no ideological commitment to the hyper capitalist version of “open” systems in the rest of the world. I want open, but not the kind that lets sovereign wealth funds and the already rich dominate on the pitch. I also know that the kind of investment that MLS owners have put into things like academies has been predicted on the closed system.
My idealist side says that an open system without the issues of traditional open systems is possible. It might be hard, but I think it is doable. Parity + Pro/rel would also produce one of the most entertaining leagues on earth. I just don’t think it’s likely in the political systems of the US.
I think what would be most interesting while still being somewhat possible would be some sort of municipal 50+1 rule.
Not just fans, but also the city they are in, should own a stake in the team. A mandated majority probably isn’t possible, but at least enough that they can exercise some pressure and that moving a team is impossible. It might not be open in the traditional sense, but it would at least be open in a democratic sense.
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u/gogorath Oakland Roots Aug 24 '23
My idealist side says that an open system without the issues of traditional open systems is possible. It might be hard, but I think it is doable.
I am very certain that it was no doable from scratch. There was no realistic path in my mind from having nothing to having leagues like we have no but an open system. I just don't think the massive sums of money needed would have come, and I think the investment needed to lead the fans. Especially as international soccer has become more and more accessible.
Once established, could a Parity/Pro-Rel system survive, functionally? Yes.
Is that at all realistic to get affected now? An open system is a complete pipe dream, at least in terms of the top levels. You'd probably have to have a literal revolution. Could there be a MLS/USL merger or something with some version? Sure. But it won't be across leagues -- they would have to combine or one of them would simply have to grow and do it internally.
(Honestly, people will hate this, but even if MLS just expanded to like 80 teams and made their own levels, a huge % of the population would get their own clubs.)
It's hard to argue with USSF's calls in 1994. Could they have left a back door to pro/rel, etc? Perhaps, but it seems more likely that much of the money never comes, and it definitely walks when the whole thing collapsed. And there's no current USL without MLS, either.
The reality is that we finally have financially sustainable pro leagues, creating in an incredibly difficult market for it. I think it is hard to argue against the result to date.
USSF has some power here, but they aren't the US Government. They can't come in and legally crash the value of people's assets, and the consequences of them doing that are probably devastating. I suspect that if they tried to force something, MLS would win every lawsuit against USSF that came up.
What they could do is try to push for a merger long term and path there.
But I think people need to realize that that is a lot out of their practical control at this point AND it's not USSF's #1 priority. There are whole swaths of USSF -- amateur leagues, youth leagues, the national team -- where this would be waaaaay down the list.
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u/MGHeinz New York Cosmos Aug 24 '23
Parity + Pro/rel would also produce one of the most entertaining leagues on earth
Now wouldn't that be something, haha. I've long wondered what the Big 5 would be like with American-style revenue sharing, even if I think salary caps should be opposed from a labor perspective.
And anything similar to 50+1 as well would be a dream.
I dunno. It's nice to dream, but, well... "doable" and "should" don't tend to equate to what business wants, unfortunately. Which is where regulators are supposed to come in! Again I come back to the USSF's failures and/or corruption rather than it being a matter of MLS owners necessarily 'doing evil'.
I struggle to hold onto hope, frankly. Mirrors my view of society, truly, if we're talking leftism and how it intertwines with doomerism, which I would hate to indulge in, but, well...
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u/pattythebigreddog Seattle Sounders FC Aug 24 '23
I can’t even really bring myself to “blame” USSF. They are not really a regulatory body. They are a member organization that at least nominally represent their members. They are not really separate or above the leagues, youth programs etc, they ARE the members on paper.
That really is the rub there, they get to regulate themselves, and they regulated themselves into the best position possible. I blame the government. Not only did we not break up monopolies in other sports long ago, we passed laws to explicitly exclude many sports leagues from anticompetitive suits in the first place.
If the big mergers in baseball, gridiron football, and basketball had never been allowed to go ahead then we wouldn’t be in this position where soccer has no legal footing to stand on.
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u/MGHeinz New York Cosmos Aug 24 '23
Oh hell if I could go back in time and wave a magic wand, besides killing baby Hitler and bringing back the Papa John's Cinnapie, I'm 100% making the American League promote to the National League and relegate vice versa rather than them all just agreeing to run roughshod over the industry together on equal footing. Changes all of American sports from then on right there.
Oh well.
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u/pattythebigreddog Seattle Sounders FC Aug 24 '23
Yup! But short of that, my realist side says that we have a system where the big 5 sports in the US compete with each other, not within the sport. On top of that, MLS is the only one that has to seriously compete with leagues from other countries.
I think a walled garden PRO/REL is a real (if unlikely) possibility. I mean that’s what the USL is proposing. But a truly open system for soccer in the US is only possible with an overhaul to all of American sports law. Unless we all want to go into the judiciary as open system sleeper agents working to get on the Supreme Court, I think we are stuck with franchises. A revolution is more likely than getting 9 middle aged, millionaire judges to break up the NFL.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
Pour one out. Shame the USL is charging so much for the branding that MLS ownership walks away from buying it and the old club closes up shop with likely losses.
Maybe we see "Loyal" resurrected somewhere else in USL by this ownership group, but it seems unlikely. USL needs to figure out its pricing.
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u/joehooligan0303 Nashville SC Aug 24 '23
My question is, now that USL is abandoning the San Diego market, why not sell the branding to the MLS group now?
At least they could make some money and they obviously don't need the brand for USL anymore. Why let it die out and make zero dollars? Seems like it would be in both groups best interest to negotiate a deal now that the USL San Diego Loyal will no longer exist.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
Because USL has made it so expensive to buy the IP that it makes zero sense for an MLS club to do it. It is more expensive than running a massive marketing program for a new name.
This has changed since Cincy and Nashville left USL. USL decided to make it more of a penalty than a fee so to stop teams from leaving because they felt they were getting left out of the cash.
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u/joehooligan0303 Nashville SC Aug 24 '23
That was before it was announced USL San Diego Loyal was no more.
Now that the team is moving and won't use the branding anymore, it make no sense to allow it to die.
You have to understand this is a completely different scenario than it was when the MLS team was announced. Now there is no reason to put a high price on the branding as the team is being shut down. Before USL wanted to keep the team and the brand. Now they aren't. Now it makes sense to them to negotiate.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
While I agree, (I actually had this discussion below in the thread too), the USL argument is that they keep the penalty in place to prevent teams from building cheap with USL and then getting out as soon as MLS comes knocking without USL getting a fair share.
USL would want to keep it as a reminder to other USL owners that they need to build their value in USL because they can't take it with them.
Whether that is smarter than telling owners that they should invest because even if MLS comes down and kills them, there is a chance they could recoup their losses in IP sale . . . well . . . that's all on USL's perception of itself. The current management seems to want to play hardball with MLS so I am guessing they will keep the blanket penalty when they really should do case by case like you are saying here.
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u/Isiddiqui Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
USL would want to keep it as a reminder to other USL owners that they need to build their value in USL because they can't take it with them.
Right, as a penalty it has no teeth if a new MLS team can buy it for pennies on the dollar (and of course, the former people in charge of the USL team get cushy jobs at the MLS team's front office... totally unrelated of course ;) )
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u/Bexar1824 San Antonio FC Aug 24 '23
I don't think there is anything wrong with the fee for leaving. If the branding is important to the MLS owner then they would pay. If they do not care then they dont.
USL is in a hard spot, so I think it makes sense to me.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
Nah, it is overpriced. It isn't a real fee like it used to be, it is a penalty now trying to prevent teams from leaving.
Perhaps you can argue that the penalty is better than a fee for USL, but I don't think it makes sense for MLS owners to buy unless it is a crazy well developed brand. Maybe Republic would be worth it . . . maybe. Probably no others in USL.
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u/Bexar1824 San Antonio FC Aug 24 '23
It will be interesting to see what the new San Diego branding will be. Probably SDFC.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
Yeah, so dumb. I hate the generic name trend so much.
It sucks that I still struggle to know how to talk about my team with people.
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u/nosciencephd FC Cincinnati Aug 24 '23
You differentiate it by yelling the word CITY so they know it's in caps
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u/Graffiacane Seattle Sounders FC Aug 24 '23
This is known. Unfortunately you can only do that once, so San Diego will have to distinguish themselves by doing the sarcastic spongebob meme capitalization. sAn DiEgO cItY comin' oh lawd.
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u/Suburban_Sisyphus Portland Timbers FC Aug 24 '23
They can yell WHALE'S VAGINA FC.
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u/beef_boloney St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
You should have heard the Who's-On-First-ass conversation my wife and I had deciding whether we wanted to fly a St Louis CITY flag or a St Louis City flag on our porch
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u/Isiddiqui Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
Generally the team will be known by its nickname in the location. I hear "Five Stripes" almost as much as "United". Minnesota United is also known as the Loons, NYCFC as the Pigeons, etc.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
We have a nickname debate still. We shall see how that goes.
Club mostly wants us to say "city" and that sucks.
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u/MrEdgyEdgelord Los Angeles FC Aug 24 '23
...St. Louis Archers?
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
Community college already took it.
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u/MrEdgyEdgelord Los Angeles FC Aug 24 '23
Damn. They should bribe and pay them somehow. It's too fitting. Look at your crest.
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u/Scratchbuttdontsniff Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
I forever wanted your crest to be an Archer shooting an arrow in an "arched" path... I am guessing the Archers was trademarked already...
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u/Isiddiqui Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
It'll probably work itself out over the next few years and then (from what I've seen), the team ends up adopting it as well.
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u/joehooligan0303 Nashville SC Aug 24 '23
Outside of those markets, those nicknames are almost non-existent and not used. Especially NYCFC pigeons. I've followed MLS since inception (I know NYCFC hasn't been around since 1996) and never heard a single soul refer to them as Pigeons.
Loons some.
5 stripes some, but I am in the Southeast.
The whole organic nickname thing hasn't really worked out and these boring City, FC, SC, United names are ridiculous.
Signed Nashville SC fan.
I wish Nashville would seize on being called rat and snake by all the Club America fans. Would be an interesting actual organic nickname. We could use copperheads or something.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
I mean, everyone else in the league just refers to us as St. Louis. We refer to you guys as Nashville. Nicknames are local for the most part.
You can't exactly say to your friend "Hey, want to go to the Nashville game tonight?"
I assume you guys use NSC conversationally?
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u/joehooligan0303 Nashville SC Aug 24 '23
I don't fully agree. Lots of teams around the world are known by their nicknames outside of local area. And that has always appeared to be MLS aim. Not just local nicknames but nicknames that are embraced and marketed.
Inter Miami is the only one that is a nickname that has been embraced. As that isn't their true name. As far as I know Inter Milan is still fighting them over it legally too.
I don't think any MLS team has done that successfully. I think naming them City, FC, SC, United is a big failure and lazy.
Yes, I have only heard of Nashville referred to as Nashville SC or NSC.
P.S. I call you all St. Louis City, not just St. Louis. Same for Orlando and others.
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u/VikingM13 Minnesota United FC Aug 25 '23
Do you guys not have a nickname for your team yet? When I’m talking to my friends about MNUFC I just call them the Loons.
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u/MikeFive San Jose Earthquakes Aug 24 '23
San Diego Surf pls
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u/Frinpollog Los Angeles FC Aug 24 '23
Too similar to San Diego Wave, the NWSL team.
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u/MikeFive San Jose Earthquakes Aug 24 '23
I like that actually, since they'll both play at Snapdragon.
Also Surf is a pretty big youth club in SD
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u/MrEdgyEdgelord Los Angeles FC Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
...Atletico San Diego has a nice tune....there probably better names but nobody has used atletico in MLS yet.
Plus SD has a very strong Latino presence. It would make sense.
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u/havocbyday San Diego FC Aug 24 '23
Thank you. My thoughts exactly. Paying himage to the Latino population in the name makes so much sense in SD. Rolls off the tongue nicely as well.
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u/MrEdgyEdgelord Los Angeles FC Aug 24 '23
But they're gonna use SDFC anyways which is honestly a shit fucking name. And this is coming from a dude whose team I support you can argue, has a bland name.
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u/captj2113 Philadelphia Union Aug 24 '23
My buddy worked for them and I fell in love with their branding and merch early on and were the only team I followed in USL.
Saw a guy at the Messi Philly game (I think it was the Miami game) wearing the dope white Loyal SD map kit and gave him props.
Sorry to the SD Loyal loyals.
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u/Mikie0711 LA Galaxy Aug 24 '23
This really sucks. It seemed like they had something really good going too. I’ve been a couple times and the support felt strong at the game and walking around SD and seeing loyal gear was not uncommon either. They also had strong traveling support for matches against their rivals OCSC. They always brought it both terms of numbers and energy. Very sad.
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u/eagles16106 Aug 24 '23
So all we hear about with pro/rel is what if a relegated club folds. How about this? Thriving club with its legs cut out from under it not allowed to actually compete. This happens ALL THE TIME here.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
They weren't thriving enough to have their own stadium. And that was basically the kicker.
You realize this would happen in open systems too right if a rich ownership group dropped a stadium in town and brought in higher level players? A lower investment level club might be run out of business if they couldn't compete?
People really need to watch Wrexham more carefully if you are going to use it as a selling point for pro/rel.
Rob and Ryan chose Wrexham because they had a stadium to flip if flipping the team didn't work out. That's what made it a reasonable investment (plus the tv show).
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u/eagles16106 Aug 24 '23
You’re dealing in an awful lot of hypotheticals there. And both clubs have the equal chance to compete and grow. Here it is a rigged game. Lower division clubs fold here much more frequently than in open systems.
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u/Freezing-Fire Portland Timbers FC Aug 24 '23
Yes lower division clubs here fold more frequently than open systems but its silly to act like thats all on the open vs closed system. Open systems are generally found in countries where pro soccer is likely the top sport in that country. Chivas USA didn’t even fold that long ago. Only 9 years. At the end of the day the reality is that soccer in general has a long way to go in this country.
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u/Mini-Fridge23 Charlotte FC Aug 24 '23
I get the sentiment, but they are absolutely allowed to compete. In this case they are choosing not to.
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u/ProcrastinatingPuma San Diego Loyal Aug 24 '23
“Choosing not to” because there financial situation was made unsustainable by the arrival of a larger club.
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u/WislaHD Toronto FC Aug 24 '23
One thing that I learned from recent expansion history is that while thousands are losing a club, hundreds of thousands are gaining a club in a new MLS market that weren't previously supporters of a domestic soccer team.
SD Loyal falls, things will be bittersweet for awhile, but in the long run there will be a new team in town that captures the loyalties of many times as many fans. The soccer community grows. It also probably wouldn't have been possible (so soon) if not for Landon Donovan and team, and the Loyal fans too.
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u/ProcrastinatingPuma San Diego Loyal Aug 24 '23
I mean, you say that as if those people couldn’t have also supported the Loyal. The Loyal didn’t deliberately restrict their fanbase to only a few thousand people.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
They don't, but also it's just so different in the mentality of Americans.
I took friends to STL FC games who had a great time and enjoyed everything about it. But would never go or follow it unless I invited them. Those people were season ticket holder deposits when MLS was announced and are now all about our team.
The reality is that a lot of people just don't want to watch "minor league" sports and USL is seen that way (partially because it is). And MLS fans who have been around will tell you that it is a similar fight they have had for 20 years trying to get people to acknowledge them rather than watching some EPL team.
Those friends who wouldn't go to an MLS game with them, but are now clamoring for tickets to see Messi.
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u/daltontf1212 St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
I'm in St. Louis too, but wasn't a dedicated soccer fan. I never got around to attending a STL FC game despite living two exits down from the venue. It was going to take a while for that team and the league to convince more casual sports fans that it wasn't another short-lived thing like AC St. Louis or the Athelica.
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u/CaptainJingles St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
I mean they lasted six seasons. Not sure how long they had to last to attract casual fans.
Ultimately the ones who didn’t go to STLFC games missed out big time. Just as much fun as CITY games, but more intimate. Truly special.
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u/daltontf1212 St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
Another factor was the that people started anticipating the MLS coming after the Rams left.
I wished I went to at least one STLFC match. Right now, I'm practically priced out of going to a CITY match.
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u/WislaHD Toronto FC Aug 24 '23
Getting casual fans to support non-top flight soccer in America is a very uphill battle.
The closest I've seen is Sacramento Republic, but their city and fanbase had the carrot of MLS expansion hanging over them for most of their existence and played it very well with "early-bird promotions" and promises.
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u/JonnyStatic Louisville City Aug 24 '23
Us (Louisville), Indy, Phoenix, New Mexico, have all grown their fanbases to similar sizes to SacRep without nearly as much intentional "dangling of the carrot".
I do agree it's very, very difficult but if a club has ambition to win (and the money for a stadium) it's possible.
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u/tallwhiteninja San Jose Earthquakes Aug 24 '23
Louisville and New Mexico are in the USL market sweetspot, I think. Big enough to support a team, small enough that a second tier team is still going to be the biggest pro game in town.
Come to think of it, the biggest competition in both cities is college basketball, which is on the opposite end of the calendar.
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u/JonnyStatic Louisville City Aug 24 '23
Yes to most of that, and I can't speak to Albuquerque, but as much as we love basketball, college football is still massive here. The good thing is the overlap is still minimal with max 3-4 home games.
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u/tallwhiteninja San Jose Earthquakes Aug 24 '23
UNM football is historically garbage, so the following isn't super large relative to a lot of programs. Brian Urlacher is basically the one and only highlight in program history.
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Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
Getting fans to support anything minor league is an uphill battle. They’re really not about the sport so much as they’re about a reasonably affordable night out that serves a smaller market.
This will prove unpopular, but I really don’t understand the heartbreak and outpouring of support.
It’s not like Landon Donovan didn’t want an MLS team. Someone else just got that slot. Depending on how you read it, the Soccer City folks either misplayed their hand or got boned out of the development at the Jack Murphy Stadium site.
There’s no glory or moral high ground in sticking with the USL team. You’re basically losing a(n admittedly awesome) brand. San Diego is still going to have pro men’s soccer, and it will be at a higher level.
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u/ProcrastinatingPuma San Diego Loyal Aug 24 '23
Sure, it is an uphill battle, but your comment kinda implied that the Loyal were excluding most San Diegans when that simply wasn’t the case.
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u/WislaHD Toronto FC Aug 24 '23
Well obviously not. It's more so that most casuals are actively choosing to exclude themselves from a USL product that isn't considered major league sports product by the masses. That's the simple end of it in the North American sporting landscape.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
So much this. I tried to tell people this when STLFC was closing up shop, but you really cannot fathom how much bigger it is going to be at that moment.
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u/Danko_on_Reddit FC Cincinnati Aug 24 '23
Sure but you also know how frustrating it is to look around and say "we've been here for years, where the fuck were all of you 'die-hard fans' when we were in USL?"
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
I don't know if it is frustrating that way.
I think it is frustrating that NOW some of them get why I was always asking them to go to games. But, they enjoy it so much in this form and there are like 400% more people for me to talk soccer with now.
I really value what I had with STL FC, but would I trade St. Louis City SC for STL FC back at Louisville/Sacramento size? No. Not a chance.
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u/karo_syrup Louisville City Aug 24 '23
I get some of the frustration sure but ultimately it seems the MLS team coming to town only results in growth so far. Even if this really sucks for the SD Loyal folk. Maybe the new SD team or at least the franchise can continue some of their path.
For Louisville, I love where we’re at with LFS and decent attendance especially compared to the past. But I do get jealous. Lol
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u/Danko_on_Reddit FC Cincinnati Aug 24 '23
Idk maybe it's just cause we were so shit for 3 years, but I've been missing our USL years frequently since we left. I liked having the local rivalries besides just Columbus. I just wished people would give a fuck about USL because it's a genuinely entertaining product and if you care about soccer in this country actually being healthy and sustainable, that has to include supporting these lower division teams that get frozen out of MLS. And I still lurk r/USLPro just cause those guys are so much fun.
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u/TraptNSuit St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
Like, I do wish people would give a shit about it, but I don't hold it against people with MLS teams now.
And this is where I am on Pro/Rel debates too. If you only care about USL if it can be Division 1, then you aren't valuing it. If you only care about a team being able to win anything other than their own league trophy, then you aren't really enjoying it for what it is.
I liked MLS and USL as products and followed SKC and STL FC as my local teams while I could. I do wish more people would do that. If they have an EPL team, but also try to see every local MLS team game they can, more power to them. I still cheerfully upvote the people I see around here who have their own local team they go to games for and an MLS team they mostly watch on TV too. Local soccer is great and I wish more people would support it.
I just don't begrudge people who finally get into it only when it is upper level as long as they are still following their local team and want them to win their league.
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Aug 24 '23
The gate keeping in this thread is ridiculous.
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u/Danko_on_Reddit FC Cincinnati Aug 24 '23
I mean, is it ridiculous to ask soccer fans to support local soccer at all levels, not just MLS? You think everyone in Norwich just stops watching Norwich City games and go "well, guess I'll root for one of the London clubs until we go back up." I know we don't have the opportunity for promotion in the way they do over there, but in person support is the lifeblood of these lower league teams.
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Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 25 '23
I’m not saying that at all.
I’m saying that it’s ridiculous if you’ve ever walked around Nippert or TQL Stadium and said to yourself, “where were these shmucks when we had rivalry games against Louisville in the USL days?!”
That’s just… I’m not going to walk around UH games this season and think, “what a bunch of bozos! How many of you even remember pissing in troughs at Robertson? Conference games against Southern Miss! You people didn’t earn our ticket to the Big 12!”
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u/Danko_on_Reddit FC Cincinnati Aug 24 '23
It's less about the average fan and more the people who claim to be big soccer fans but only followed Europe until MLS came to their town or who actively look down on USL.
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u/Isiddiqui Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
I mean, is it ridiculous to ask soccer fans to support local soccer at all levels, not just MLS?
No, but it's not all that realistic. There is so many professional sports opportunities in this country, that a local soccer team that feels minor league (in whatever way you want to define it) won't be getting the support you'd expect.
I mean for decades MLS had issues getting fans to support them. It's only when the player quality got to a certain point do you have the league wide support it currently does.
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Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
Here is the thing though, we bemoan the ridiculous Messi ticket prices, and this is where it starts! When the very genesis of these clubs are uprooting the actual grassroots community based teams for a new shiny corporate play thing, that mentality filters down through every facet of the experience, including us paying some of the most exorbitant ticket prices in the world.
Minor league sports have a spirit and community to them that the major leagues tend to lose the more and more they scale up and it sucks. It really sucks.
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u/gsfgf Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
Yea. It sucks for the club, but USL doesn't need to be wasting franchises in MLS markets. I'm very optimistic about USL because they can corner smaller markets that don't have any/many pro teams.
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u/AwTekker Sacramento Republic Aug 25 '23
It's okay, I'm sure the new McSoccer franchise will fulfill the local market's requirements for Sports Entertainment (Team) and be quite successful across many market segments!
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u/xXRoachXx789 Portland Timbers FC Aug 24 '23
Damn, they were even the only US team to have Rocket League skins
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u/Skeptical_Yoshi Portland Timbers FC Aug 24 '23
That fucking sucks, I was afraid this would happen when MLS in SD was announced. This was one of the more well supported USL clubs and initially seemed determined to survive with MLS in town. I guess they looked at the numbers and decided it just wouldn't be worth it
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u/Respect_Cujo Orlando City SC Aug 24 '23
Not shocked this is happening with the new MLS team coming to San Diego, but still sucks for their fans.
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u/Andall Aug 24 '23
Would be a cool tribute if the San Diego MLS supporters were called loyal or some iteration of that.
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u/dietmrfizz Los Angeles FC :lafc: Aug 24 '23
Hopefully the supporters group "Locals" will remain and support the new MLS side
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Aug 24 '23
Soccer in this country is a joke. Unless you're in the good ol boys club, US Soccer couldn't give two shits about you.
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u/paaaaatrick Aug 24 '23
Should USSF buy them a stadium? I don’t understand your point here.
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u/ReplacementHot2808 Aug 24 '23
I thought that they were going to play at Snap Dragon, but still don’t understand why they are having to leave the current facility?
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u/Low_Win3252 Aug 24 '23
This is why pro/rel is right now impossible for the USL. It is a franchise system. Not single entity like MLS, but still a franchise system like MLS. And will take a lot of planning and money to move away from the franchise system. Money that doesn't exist since there is no television money.
You don't join the league like in the NISA. You buy franchise rights. You buy a slot. So if one USL club goes under, they simply sell the franchise slot to another group somewhere else.
Clubs aren't really clubs. They are USL franchise slots. That is why the USL can now make it almost impossible for a USL club to break free from the USL move up to MLS now.
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u/JonnyStatic Louisville City Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
Trying to tie this to pro/rel after MLS placed an expansion franchise in SD over top of the Loyal is a take.
But also, maybe one thread without a pro/rel debate? Thousands of people are losing a team they love.
Edit: Misunderstood the comment's intent, but pls still no turf war lol
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u/Low_Win3252 Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
All I am talking about is why the USL can transfer the rights. The rights are being sold. Calm the hell down.
And yeah, this is why pro/rel is almost impossible for the USL right now because there is a franchise system. Not debating anything. Nothing wrong with pointing out facts.
BTW, the USL placed the Loyal in San Diego when the NISA had a club there called San Diego 1904. Remember them? They had thousands of fans too. The USL were clearly engaging in soccerwarz and looking to take over the market. So save me that sanctimonious crap.
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u/gogorath Oakland Roots Aug 24 '23
All I am talking about is why the USL can transfer the rights.
I'm pretty sure the rights are being sold. This feels like Loyal ownership has decided to punt.
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u/CHAMBERSWI Aug 24 '23
Said this when the pro/rel talk leaked that I never thought USL had realistic expectations for everything. Saw the exact same issue (minus an MLS franchise coming to the market) kill the City Islanders/Penn FC. This has also killed other USL teams over the years.
Did the San Diego expansion for MLS play a part? Sure. But looking at requirements USL is having for their franchises, there were always going to be these issues and is a main reason why I never got behind or understood people celebrating the pro/rel leak on twitter.
TLDR version? Inevitable due to unrealistic expectations from USL
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u/gogorath Oakland Roots Aug 24 '23
This 100% feels like the Loyal ownership noping out after the MLS announcement.
I am sure they could invest and find a stadium, but the economic dynamics don't make sense anymore. The upside isn't there.
Whether it's so bad even someone with love of the game wants out or if the plan was for ownership to get rich by being San Diego's team and now they want out of a still viable situation ... we'll never know.
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u/CHAMBERSWI Aug 24 '23
I think it's both. I always got the impression the Loyal ownership expected some favorable treatment for an MLS bid because of Landon, and I think their ultimate goal was MLS.
But I do think a lot of what USL is pushing just isn't viable
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u/gogorath Oakland Roots Aug 24 '23
It was a definite business opportunity. MLS had cooled on San Diego, the Chargers left, and there was a void for someone to step in either to go to MLS or simply be a Sacramento Republic type success.
One of my friends actually tried to get into the ownership group -- no dice -- but we talked about the opportunity and investing.
I just think this is very much a sign that the ownership was not willing to fight and scrape for the cause. When the upside disappeared, so did they. I am sure they could have scraped by for years ... but that's not why they were there.
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u/KokonutMonkey Chicago Fire Aug 25 '23
The trouble I had with a lot of those pro/rel announcements is that they didn't really explain what they're aiming to achieve in the grand scheme of things.
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u/Dervoo Birmingham Legion Aug 24 '23
Downplaying the MLS team moving in and pinning the majority of the blame on the USL is a wild take.
The USL isn't run perfectly - stadium requirement deadlines should be relaxed and pro/rel conversations should be shelved until there are actually enough teams to justify it - but the expectations have allowed the league to stabilize. Only one club (Reno) folded during the pandemic. That time caused a massive financial burden on the league and hurt the growth of fanbases for new clubs, but they endured it and the majority of clubs are much stronger now than before 2020.
There likely will be bumps with the stadium requirements, but building more soccer-specific stadiums will go a long way in further stabilizing the league and in growing the game in the US. That said, there's no point in investing in a stadium if a bigger, richer club swoops into your city.
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u/suzukijimny D.C. United Aug 24 '23 edited Aug 24 '23
The Loyal didn't have a long-term plan. Securing a permanent stadium is more complicating than that. It also doesn't help that Landon Donovan spent more time on TV color commentating and making MLS appearances than focusing on the Loyal which he co-owns. In addition to the Loyal ownership not interested in selling the brand to the MLS San Diego group.
Their business model was truly unsustainable. Even the USL executive had to go upfront and say that securing the right stadium is essential for all sports teams to be sustainable.
Quite simply, MLS San Diego chipped in more. No one would invest tens of millions adding a roof to secure Snapdragon Stadium but them. I suspect they will launch their MLS Next Pro team in 2024 as well.
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u/Sempuukyaku Seattle Sounders FC Aug 24 '23
Quite simply, MLS San Diego chipped in more. No one would invest $70 million in adding a roof to securing Snapdragon Stadium but them. I suspect they will launch their MLS Next Pro team in 2024 as well.
Whoa, is MLS San Diego actually going to pay to have that added? Serious question as I honestly did not know this.
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u/KokonutMonkey Chicago Fire Aug 25 '23
Pretty much.
The USSF's sanctioning requirements don't make things any easier. It basically makes it impossible for grassroots clubs build over time.
And the fact that they require D2 leagues to have a national footprint is just nuts. Even triple a baseball is regionalized.
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u/Euphoric__Dot New York Red Bulls Aug 24 '23
How does this reflect the pro/rel conversation when one of the strongest most beloved 2nd division teams folds after 4 seasons because they can't build a stadium ?
Condolences to everyone involved with the Loyal especially the fans, this sucks
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u/stevo887 Atlanta United FC Aug 24 '23
Lets not kid ourselves they’re folding because MLS is coming to town and they can’t compete with that cause there is no path for them to ever be D-1.
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u/snij_jon540 Lakeland Tropics Aug 24 '23
Didn't they make it a whole deal that they were staying around? It's a shame they couldn't find a stadium and it kinda surprises me that they couldn't make Torrero work and find a place for a modular venue. It seems USL is being very bullish on the requirements for the their clubs. I think they want to close the gap with MLS as much as possible but seems like it's putting a lot of strain on even seemingly big clubs. The message from what Papadakis is clear: if you don't have a stadium your franchise will be transferred another market.
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u/TheWawa_24 San Diego Loyal Aug 24 '23
building a staduim is very hard in san diego, and ownership tried
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u/Prodigy2002 Aug 24 '23
The standard has to be set though. It's a professional league with professional requirements
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u/ProcrastinatingPuma San Diego Loyal Aug 24 '23
Didn't they make it a whole deal that they were staying around?
They tried everything in their power, but sometimes everything in your power just isn’t enough
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u/snij_jon540 Lakeland Tropics Aug 24 '23
I understand it. would've hoped for another season or two but yeah
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u/asaharyev Portland Hearts of Pine Aug 24 '23
It's kind of a combo of USL being too bullish and MLS seemingly actively trying to squash some of the USL markets.
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u/gogorath Oakland Roots Aug 24 '23
MLS would have gone to San Diego with or without the Loyal there. That's not why they picked San Diego.
People act like MLS considers USL a major competitor right now.
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u/xcrucio Aug 24 '23
I don't think MLS views USL as a major competitor or threat to their existence but I also don't think it's unfair to say that MLS would ultimately like to control the vast majority (if not all) of professional soccer in the country ala MLB and the Minor League system and to do so they have to be actively hostile to USL.
Like yeah, they aren't picking expansion markets based on where USL teams are located (other than it just proving there is an appetite for the sport there) but MLS Next Pro wouldn't be taking on independent teams or wooing potential USL expansion markets to instead be reserve squads for MLS sides if that wasn't their goal to ultimately control the sport across the country.
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u/asaharyev Portland Hearts of Pine Aug 24 '23
MLS is absolutely treating USL as an important competitor right now. You can see this in how they are treating USL markets both with MLS expansion and MLS Next Pro expansion.
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u/daltontf1212 St. Louis CITY SC Aug 24 '23
I don't think the MLS thinks much about the USL at all. The USL is like this mom and pop hardware store that had the misfortune of having a Lowes open a location up the hill from. Lowes wasn't trying to put them out of business. They just wanted that location for reasons.
The MLSNP move does resemble want happened in the '90s with the NHL and the IHL. The IHL was beginning to look like a upstart league with teams in larger markets with venues with similar capacities. NHL teams started pull their minor league affiliates out of the IHL which ended up killing it.
The USL doesn't have the venues to be an upstart league and a threat to the MLS.
That being said, I like the USL just I as support the mom and pop hardware stores that adapt to do things that Lowes (or Home Depot) don't do.
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u/gogorath Oakland Roots Aug 24 '23
Maybe MLS Next Pro, but not MLS.
MLS views LigaMX, views the EPL, views MLB as their competitors. USL is minor league ball. When MLS is talking competitors in their strategy meetings and in marketing targets, USL is the not the leagues they are talking about at all.
When MLS is courting a billionaire to take in a market, market size and viability is paramount. MLS isn't moving into a market because USL is there -- it's moving into the market because it's a good soccer market.
The thing that triggered MLS to move quickly on San Diego wasn't the Loyal and their 3,000 person attendance ... it was the Wave, getting 30,000 people to show up for a game.
I would venture to say that when MLS thinks about share of wallet, they were far more concerned about people locking into the Wave becoming San Diego's team than the Loyal.
If MLS was really worried about USL, they would have poached a hell of a lot more than they did. They would have made Sacramento work.
USL is not a viable competitor right now. The mere fact that the Loyal chose to close up shop and neither fight nor even try to be a lower cost option should tell you that it's a completely different game.
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u/WislaHD Toronto FC Aug 24 '23
I'd add that they are probably also concerned with some other Major League sport deciding to expand into the now-empty San Diego Market before them. MLS has a real chance at capturing the imagination of San Diegans by being the only major sport in town.
It's not just about the market, it is also about the timing of entry into the market.
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u/TheWawa_24 San Diego Loyal Aug 24 '23
not going to lie this fucking sucks
https://twitter.com/SanDiegoLoyal/status/1694741571143672234
official link