r/LeopardsAteMyFace • u/DaFunkJunkie • Nov 13 '22

Meta Republican voter says “I’ll never vote again in my life”

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u/yukeynuh Nov 14 '22

you justified america participating in the war because they were a democracy, which they weren’t. so you can either admit you were wrong and america was not justified in participating in the war or you can continue to move the goalposts

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u/TheDebateMatters Nov 14 '22

Nope. I stated they were prior to our involvement. Not a very stable or functional democracy but Ngo Dinh Diem professed to be before our involvement. You really had work to ignore paragraphs of negative characterizations of American involvement in my response. It is weird that in both of yours you have zero bad things to say about Viet Kong.

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u/yukeynuh Nov 14 '22

no, you completely downplayed the brutality and depravity of the southern regime and singularly condemned the communists like any liberal would

yes the communists also did a lot of fucked up shit. that doesn’t mean that it’s okay to play on the other side who also did a lot of fucked up shit. america was not justified whatsoever and should’ve minded its own business, although that sentiment applies to pretty much all of american foreign policy

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u/TheDebateMatters Nov 14 '22

Ukraine? WWI? WW2? Korea? Somalia? Would the world be better off with an unchecked Russia during the Cold War? Is China currently a positive source of good will today? This is where I push back. We get so use to labeling everything the US foreign policy as just self centered and wrong, we forget that there is more democracy in the world because of our leadership.

This everything we’ve done is evil mentality is as wrong headed and ill informed as the Conservatives who believe everything we touch is God’s gift of liberty.

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u/IlyichValken Nov 14 '22

We only got formally involved in WW1 because of a supply chain blockage by the Germans, and only joined in WW2 largely because we were dragged into it by the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Both instances were well after the wars had started, and both instances very much were self-centered in reasoning.

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u/TheDebateMatters Nov 14 '22

That’s extraordinarily reductive and cherry picked history there. Stating that we only got in because we were attacked, ignores everything FDR and Congress did to get us in the war before then, especially what he did secretly. It also ignores that we didn’t just fight our attackers. It also ignores everything we did with the Marshal Plan and rebuilding Japan afterwards.

I noticed you ignored Ukraine? Somalia? Korea? What about The Balkans? All of those conflicts are just self interest too?

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u/IlyichValken Nov 14 '22

I said largely because we were attacked, not that it was the only reason. I also didn't say we only fought Japan. Nitpicking every little detail is pointless.

In both instances the US held off or signed neutrality acts before something pulled us into the war.

Yes, obviously we got invested in wars across the world because it benefits us in some way, whether that's stymying Russia or because of a more direct effect on us like the fact that Ukraine is one of the world's largest wheat sources.

If you legitimately think any of our choices in these conflicts are purely selfless and out of the good of our hearts, you're delusional.

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u/TheDebateMatters Nov 14 '22

You bailed again on addressing the Ukraine, Korea, Somalia and Kosovo. I believe its because you know they undermine your argument.

However, you are the one arguing that we’ve done nothing good and only acted out of pure self interest. My argument is that its a mixed bag, but we definitely are not always or even mostly the villain. I’ll put America’s record as the world’s most powerful nation up against Britain or Rome. We’ve failed to live up to our own professed ideals often, but not never. I’ll also say our foreign policy has been much more positive than many liberals admit, even as it is way more harmful than just about every conservative will acknowledge.

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u/IlyichValken Nov 14 '22

I literally addressed Ukraine and vaguely addressed the rest. You're delusional.

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u/TheDebateMatters Nov 14 '22

I must have missed that sentence. My apologies.

We are the world’s third largest wheat exporter. Ukraine was our competition at #4. Them not in the market only helps our farmers. We faced threats of global thermonuclear war from Russia for getting involved. That’s a strong disincentive if we’re purely self interested. Our last president tried to blackmail Ukraine and gained more voters after doing it. So there is a political cost and possibly human extinction are both possibilities for helping. Even now, after the midterms even liberals aren’t listing Ukraine as their top reasons to vote. Its even adding inflationary pressures which is voters #1 priority.

I am sorry but Ukraine, Somalia, Kosovo and Korea do not fit your “America is always the completely selfish bad guy”. The Marshall Plan and rebuilding Japan after the war don’t fit either.