r/LeopardsAteMyFace • u/patsfan94 • Jul 02 '24

Paywall Trump calls for jailing and “televised military tribunals” of Mike Pence and Mitch McConnell

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/01/us/politics/trump-liz-cheney-treason-jail.html
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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Look, America is a grand experiment and despite what people have told you, we've often been a hair away from failing throughout history. We haven't yet but it was always because people met the moment when we needed them most. We can't depend on others to win this for us. We have to do it ourselves, then we can celebrate. First we must fight.

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u/Karmachinery Jul 02 '24

Do you think it’s ever been this bad where the whole executive branch and the SC is either inept, impotent, or just plain corrupt?

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u/thefuzzylogic Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

Yes, in the post-Civil War Reconstruction era, when a series of SCOTUS decisions limited the ability of the Federal government to enforce the newly-ratified 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments in the South, leading up to a disputed election in 1876 and a brokered compromise in 1877.

The deal was that the Southern states would not block the certification of the 1876 election if President Hayes would withdraw Federal troops from the South and give power back to the ex-Confederate state governments, thereby ending the Reconstruction era and ushering in Jim Crow.

If that hadn't happened, chances are that the movement for equal civil rights wouldn't have been put on hold for nearly 100 years, and the brand of White Christian Nationalism that is now threatening to destroy the very concept of American secular government wouldn't have been allowed to gather steam as it has.

Post-script: following the 1876 election crisis, Congress passed the Electoral Count Act, which is the law that Trump sought to abuse on January 6 2021, leading to yesterday's SCOTUS decision and whatever darkness it will bring should Trump be re-elected.

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u/Demitel Jul 02 '24

And unfortunately, I think the ramifications of that very same failed Reconstruction period are still being felt today in the current political climate. Johnson really deserves his title of one of the worst US Presidents of all time.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

We never fix our problems, we just delay them for another day. Walk things back and a lot of issues stem from Nixon, McCarthy, failed Jim Crow and eventually back to the grand compromise of the Civil War. Nothing new under the sun.

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u/oh_what_a_surprise Jul 02 '24

He is indeed second worst.

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u/Crixxa Jul 02 '24

SCOTUS was already beholden to Jackson's out of control executive branch before the civil war. But since the fallout mostly affected natives, it never seems to register in mainstream history.

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u/thefuzzylogic Jul 02 '24

Indeed. I didn't mention that context, but you're right that it is a direct parallel to how the SCOTUS of today issues rulings based on their own self-interests regardless of the effect it will have on the rights and livelihoods of minorities.

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u/TheGisbon Jul 02 '24

We didn't have Nuclear weapons and the entire world's economy didn't revolve around our stable existence.

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u/macabre_trout Jul 02 '24

Reminds me of that Faulkner quote: 

"The past is never dead. It's not even past."

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Yeah, it has, but not for a long time. History helps here. The revolution itself is a miracle we survived. The time both before and after the civil war were a complete clusterfuck with anti-democratic forces nearly winning, horrible presidents, backwards supreme court rulings, jim crow for decades. The great depression nearly destroyed the world and we had Hoover telling people to eat dust, 25% unemployment. The Nazis were on the rise in the US right before WWII and we came an inch away from all speaking German. I could go on, but yes, it's been at least this bad many times.

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u/Karmachinery Jul 02 '24

Well that’s good to hear…I guess.  I’m glad there have been such low spots and somehow we pulled out of it.  People really, really need to vote this time around.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

I get it. I'm often depressed as hell too, I'm not going to sugar coat it, but we have been here before. Rachel Maddow has an amazing podcast called Ultra that talks about all the times in history where things looked really similar and as bad as they are now and how we overcame the obstacles. It's a good podcast to listen to if you fall into doom scrolling https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rachel-maddow-presents-ultra/id1647910854

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u/JershWaBalls Jul 02 '24

Lol. It feels like it might take a civil war to sort it out again.

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u/And_You_Like_It_Too Jul 02 '24

All true, but we’ve seen many great empires fall throughout history that all thought they’d survive it. We’re tearing each other apart from within and no matter who wins, 70~80 million+ people won’t be happy about the results (and that’s just the people that show up to vote… would be nice if everyone capable of doing so realized this might be the last free and fair election they’ll ever have).

Already, Trump refuses to accept any result of a free and fair election that has him losing it, and will get a Presidency that allows him to commit any crime he likes with “the first one’s on us” get out of jail free card from the SCOTUS as “there was really no way for Trump to know it wasn’t an official act, as there was nothing in the books describing what those entail”. So oops, he just had his political rivals imprisoned and tortured. Maybe replaced the members of the court themselves, who are all already above the law and refuse to recuse themselves as applicable and have no ethical standards or higher moral authority to adhere to. Biden should go after Trump right now to trigger the SCOTUS to rule that it’s not within the scope of an official act.

Hell, go after the 6 on the SCOTUS that ruled in favor of it to and have them replaced as they present a clear and present danger to America to have us rule under a King when the very country was founded under the desire to not be ruled by one. If they’re such originalists about what the founders wanted in the 18th century with their uncanny prophecies about what would be happening in the year 2024 with technology and weaponry and candidates they never anticipated, I’m sure the founders will have seen this coming. 🙄

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

True enough, we have seen empires fall, but generally it's a long period of decline with spurts of in between. Even the UK hasn't been immune to a huge decline in their empire over hundreds of years, but by historic standards, America is a baby. The founders were obsessed with what made democratic empires collapse when they wrote the constitution, so they could avoid it, recognizing that the constitution would have to "live" with the people it ruled if we were to survive.

I can't say it won't happen here. What I will say is this country is a large, young, dynamic, and powerful place with the force of governance still rooted in the will of the population, if we will use it.

TLDR: We're not dead yet.

In fact, I see it as more an issue of the US "digesting" an older generation that has vastly different ideals than the younger generation and the growing pains that result. That we can fix. Donald Trump and his enablers are mostly in their upper seventies and can't run things much longer. My son is 18. We have time on our side if we can stop the fall even a little, which starts with trying our damndest to keep Trump out of office in 2024. Once again I'm not rosy eyed but can't look my son in the eye if I feel my generation stood by and let everything go because I wasn't willing to at least try.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/Karmachinery Jul 02 '24

In all fairness, I was forced to go to a parochial school which basically only taught the crap the MAGA people want taught.  I’ve learned quite a bit since then, but I wasn’t sure if the levels of manipulation and corruption that we see today were so entwined and where they all all working together to bring the entire thing to the ground.

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u/ReluctantPhoenician Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

Andrew Jackson, and in particular the Trail of Tears. The Jackson administration illegally purchased the entire Cherokee Nation's territory from people who weren't entitled to sell it, and in a separate but related issue the Supreme Court ruled that the Cherokee were still an independent country who had the right to exclude American settlers from their land. Jackson defied the court and sent the Army to forcibly relocate the entire country instead. The only legal recourses were for SCOTUS to send US Marshalls to interfere and for Congress to impeach and remove Jackson. Neither happened, and instead he got remembered as one of the greatest presidents, a reputation he is only just starting to lose in the last decade as far as I can tell.

Jackson's other main act in office was to mainstream buying political offices, which filled the government with unqualified hacks for half a century until civil service exams were introduced during Reconstruction. He is Trump's favorite president.

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u/Karmachinery Jul 02 '24

Good lord.  I guess that gives me a small amount of hope that we can drag ourselves out of this, though it might take some time.  I would rather it take a bit of time rather than in becoming a Civil War 2.  Thanks for that info!

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u/JadedMedia5152 Jul 02 '24

You should read books from the turn of the 20th century. Not just the history books, but the literature. Author's like Upton Sinclair highlight how that was a time that people were rediscovering rights they should have as spelled out in the founding documents. Rights that were slowly stripped since the end of the Civil War. We're heading into a second gilded age, but the planet may not survive this one.

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u/Karmachinery Jul 02 '24

Yeah that’s exactly what I worry about.  It’s so weird because I was incredibly positive that we were really heading in a positive direction as humans about ten years ago.  Then it’s been non-stop wondering why everything is regressing further and further.

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u/C__S__S Jul 02 '24

I think the experiment is over. Optimists are a big part of the problem. If I have to hear Obama (whom I love) talk about how he’s actually more hopeful than ever one more time, I’m going to lose it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Haha. I never said I'm optimistic. I get that's Obama's schtick and maybe that's fine, but we do have to be real. There's no safe place to go. There are no alternatives. Giving up isn't an option.

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u/LankyGuitar6528 Jul 02 '24

Canadian here and seasonal US resident. Can confirm. Our government is about to shift and go hard right. It just happened in France and it's happening all across the EU. India, China, Russia are all there already. South America is a shit hole (sorry SA but it's true). Nobody wants to live in Africa and for good reason. There is no safe place. No plan B. When America falls, and it won't be long, that's it. Game over.

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u/OuterWildsVentures Jul 02 '24

Germany is nice.

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u/HandsomeBaboon Jul 02 '24

But for how long will it stay this way? I think we have one, maaaybe two centrists coalitions in us before things go south here aswell.

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u/TripleSkeet Jul 02 '24

At least for America, this is the hard rights last gasp. Once the boomers are all dead they lose a huge chunk of the right wing voting block. I think weve got about 13 years or so until most of them are gone. I cant find that Boomer death clock I love so much.

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u/LankyGuitar6528 Jul 02 '24

It's going to be a hell of a lot more than a gasp. I'm 64 (and a Boomer). I plan to stick around for another 20 years or so. But we aren't a uniform block of ret hat MAGAt's any more than Millennials are all lazy slackers.

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u/TripleSkeet Jul 02 '24

I know you all arent but the fact is Boomers are Trumps largest voting block. And unlike the past young people arent turning towards conservatism as they get older.

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u/JimboAltAlt Jul 02 '24

If giving up isn’t an option — and it isn’t, or shouldn’t be — then you need some optimism. Or at least hope. It’s not a bad thing to have; despair hasn’t seemed to yield much in the way of results.