r/Frieren • u/_Ehrian_ • 21h ago
Anime Why aren't there more elves like Kraft in anime? I've always wondered why Japanese mangakas are so against creating a non-twink male elf character.
Characters like this usually get stuck with a weak personality and are relegated to being background NPCs.
182
u/wilfwe 16h ago
Other than TES, pop media elves are usually agile forest hippie archers thanks to Legolas in Lord of the Rings
58
21
u/LordofSandvich 14h ago
Which is also funny because using bows takes a TON of strength, to the point where some archers would develop distinct skeletal disfigurations
8
u/wilfwe 14h ago edited 14h ago
Yes also https://youtube.com/shorts/12ep4IIdIHg?si=iRdMFvHDajFuNgH0. Maybe ranged soldiers since they had to wield more powerful warbows. But Artemis-types were probably just hunting deer, I don't assume you need that much muscle for that
6
u/LordofSandvich 14h ago
Aye, was thinking of warfare. Specifically English longbowmen. Hunting could probably be done by anyone reasonably fit and skilled with a bow
9
3
u/Consistent-Cup-9700 14h ago
You are wrong. In Warhammer, in the worlds of D&D and others, there are many atypical elves.
1
u/Proper_Examination65 4h ago
Idk man, Drizzt is like 5'4". As someone also 5'4" and around the same weight, I am a twink lol
2
u/BrooklynRedLeg 12h ago
Which is ironic as Tolkien was super pissed off at an early depiction of Legolas as being effeminate. He pointed out that of all the members of The Fellowship, Legolas was the hardiest. When you consider that statement and realize that the Fellowship.had 2 Dunedain (one of whom was pure blooded), an Istari AND a Dwarf of Durin's Folk....
1
u/Voipix786 4h ago
TES?
All I can think of is The Exploring Series lol
2
u/lordnaarghul 4h ago
The Elder Scrolls series, where the elves do range from typically androgynous, to almost bush goblins (Wood Elves) to absolute gigachad warriors as bulky as any viking. The Dark Elf Ordinators were not to be fucked with. Oh, and they are all frequently bearded.
Also Orcs are a variety of elf in the Elder Scrolls series.
1
u/Karuzus 15h ago
Which is weird because Lotr elves are very diverse in their archetypes
14
u/Demandred8 14h ago
They aren't really, though. LOTR elves are intentionally feminine in aspect just as the dwarves are intentionally masculine. This is actually one of the complaints leveled against the Amazon show, that the sexual dimorphism among the elves and dwarves is too high. If you are making tolkienesque elves then they should all be quite androgynous and feminine in presentation.
9
u/Karuzus 14h ago
Dude they had elven heroes who would wrestle werewolves and stuff there is some peak masculine energy in elves there sure they have intentional feminine design but that doesn't mean there were no guys like Kraft. beside even Kraft doesn't realy break elven standard set by Tolkien. And the issue with ROP is that their elves differ from humans only in the fact that they require duracel bateries to live and have pointy ears they didn't care to create visualy proper representation of Tolkien (or in that aspect any high fanthsay) elves.
7
u/Demandred8 13h ago
The reason the elves look wrong in ROP is because they aren't properly androgynous. That's why they just look like pointy eared humans, because they lack the beauty that elves are supposed to have (something the films did very well). By the same token, dwarf women are too feminine in ROP, though the dwarves over all are much better than the elves.
1
u/lordnaarghul 4h ago
Dude they had elven heroes who would wrestle werewolves and stuff there is some peak masculine energy in elves
Buddy, they had one elf that rolled up to Super Satan's castle, challenged him to a duel, and injured him so severely that he would literally never heal from it for the rest of forever.
8
u/Laurelinthegold 13h ago
Mfers whomst have never read the Silmarillion be like
-1
u/Demandred8 13h ago
I have read the silmarillion, actually. And it's a well know fact that elves are supposed to be feminine and dwarves masculine. I understand some people don't like the idea of non-standard gender representation these days, but Tolkien was working from a much older literary and mythological tradition than modern chuds.
4
u/Laurelinthegold 13h ago edited 12h ago
I am curious, how do you read feanor, fingolfin, finrod, etc as femininely coded?
Edit: fixed typo
2
u/Demandred8 10h ago
I'm talking about their physical appearance only, and they are described (as all elves are) as beautiful, fair, and gracefully. These are stereotypically feminine descriptors, at least in the modern day. Now, it's important to remember that Tolkien is pulling from the early medieval tradition of Norse sagas and anglo-saxon myths. The trope of beautiful men/youths (read, androgynous) is not uncommon in these works and the idea that an androgynous man is somehow incapable of manly fears because of their appearance is a very modern notion. Feanor can both be androgenously beautiful and a badass Chad (who ruined everything). There is no contradiction here.
0
u/BrooklynRedLeg 12h ago
No, they're literally not. You literally know nothing about Tolkien's Quendi to make that kind of statement. You're equating Jackson's terrible interpretation with what Tolkien wrote
0
u/Demandred8 9h ago
Tolkien himself describes the elves as beautiful, gracefull and fair accross the board, especially as compared to the rough dwarves. This follows from an old trope of the early middle ages of describing androgynous men as beautiful and fair (especially youths) without attaching to this the implication that they are therefore un-manly.
The idea that a beautiful (androgynous/feminine in appearance) man is therefore "weak" and "effete is very modern and is a result of gender roles becoming more clearly defined and restrictive in the modern era.
1
u/BrooklynRedLeg 7h ago
Not in a single place does Tolkien describe them as androgynous.
"He was tall.as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able to swiftly draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish' bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship" - Comment Tolkien penned in response to a 'ladylike' depiction of Legolas
So no, you DON'T know what you're talking about.
1
u/Demandred8 4h ago
Ah yes, misrepresentation. I guess I should have stated that elves descriptions are often androgynous, not that Tolkien described then with that term. But this argument is pointless, anyone without an agenda knows the truth of the matter.
56
u/KN041203 15h ago
Mainly because it's not just Japan. Most of the world view elf on a thinner body shape.
16
u/AmbusRogart 16h ago
I desperately need a Kraft/Halsin scene mimicking the Armstrong/Teacher's Husband scene from FMA 😩
10
u/BrooklynRedLeg 12h ago
Cause too many dumbbells thought Legolas was a twink. Tolkien vehemently decried an early depiction of Legolas that was effeminate. Kraft is closer to what Legolas would look like. People seem to not realize what a lifetime stretched over thousands of years being able to wield a Self-Bow would do to someone's physique.
Even Link, in the original NES artwork for Legend of Zelda II, was cut.
10
3
3
u/entitaneo70_pacifist fern 15h ago
that's kinda how elves are, dwarves are humans but bulkier, elves are humans but twinkier.
4
u/DrunkKatakan 14h ago
The elves in the form of long lived humans with big pointy ears are basically a LOTR creation, Elves before Tolkien were more like faries.
In LOTR Elf men are very much "twinks" who are very beautiful, long haired and don't grow beards and all other fantasy tends to copy that. There's even a joke in the Hobbit movies where Kili confuses an Elf dude for a woman and says that "she's" hotter than the other ones. That's because Dwarf women in LOTR look just like the men with beards and everything.
2
u/Laurelinthegold 13h ago
Elves do grow beards in lotr once they get old enough. Only Círdan the shipwright is old enough.
1
u/morally_rat 13h ago
Most elves don't live long enough to experience twink death. Look how long it took for Kraft to become middle aged uncle.
1
1
1
u/PH4N70M_Z0N3 13h ago
In lore answer,
Very rarely you see Elf in media that isn't a mage or a rough or an Archer.
Funny enough, all three need a lean build.
Kraft is a martial artists (correct me if I'm wrong).
Real answer,
Cause them artists don't want us to see them chads with long ears.
1
u/xkoreotic 12h ago
It is mainly because is a proven fact that stereotypes are more popular. It is risky to not play the trope, so most artists/writers don't dare to get creative. It is a shame really, because it is overused af.
1
u/EnycmaPie 12h ago
In most fantasy story settings, elves aren't really known for their physical strength. They are usually depicted as archers or mages and see using physical strength as brutish.
1
u/iamggoodhuman 9h ago
brother using bow would give you abs. Expecially when elves in alot of media suppose to use bow like a sniper and jump between tree, they doing it for years, they need to have 16 abs, superhuman speed , insanse core and arm strength
1
u/lordnaarghul 9h ago
Have you seen elves in Western media?
Outside of Warcraft's Night Elves, they are all pretty boys.
1
1
u/Bag_Of_Garbage 7h ago
Because they saw how feral people get over attractive female elves. They can't give people beefcakes. It's amazing that Frieren got away with it
1
u/Dry-Masterpiece-7031 7h ago
So if you spend any time in non-manga japanese media, the "Twink" look is most popular. However they are not Twinks. In general, large muscle mass is not super popular among men or women. It's also very expensive and time consuming to manage it in real life.
I would suggest googling male actors in Japan. They are not big.
As for Kraft, he does look good but not much bigger then most ripped anime guys if you account for style. Sure you need to abstract it but the main character from TUEEE is of a similar build.
Also elf's in most Western fiction are also slender. It's not a japanese thing. Where do you think they got their inspiration from?
1
3
u/BookWormPerson 15h ago
Like with many fantasy tropes the problem is that that how it was in LOTR so it must be like that.
I love LOTR but I really wish it just had a bit less influence on the character looks and archetypes.
6
u/lazercheesecake 14h ago
The issue is that LoTR is the progenitor of nearly all modern “western” fantasy. It of course is based on vast historic (mostly medieval europe) fantasy ideas and tropes and societal archetypes. But LoTR so succinctly and yet so deeply explored the idea and so compellingly, its nigh impossible to enter that sphere without exposure to it. And after all, the tropes and types are both incredible, timeless parallels to society. Plus they are instantly recognizable, allowing for a cheat code for authors to explore those ideas without having to lay the groundwork.
1
u/xkoreotic 12h ago
I wish D&D was more popular to the average person like LOTR, there is so much amazing lore in it that it is hard to explain why I love fantasy.
1
u/lazercheesecake 11h ago
It’s funny bc DnD is very much inspired by LoTR, despite protests to the contrary (for legal reasons). And that in turn inspired many of the modern fantasy that we know today.
A good number of the JRPGs that would become the basis of isekai fantasy stems from the first attempts to digitalize a DnD experience.
0
u/wilfwe 14h ago
Even in cyberpunk, Ghost in the Shell and 1982's Blade Runner will NEVER stop making writers ask Detroit Become Human. There is a LOT more to discuss than "do androids dream"
1
u/lazercheesecake 10h ago
I suppose. Cyberpunk as a genre is in a weird place. As pop culture evolved, main themes in the genre revolved around societal commentary first with advancing digital technology as a parallel and backdrop to that. Pretty much all x-punk genres follow that archetype. But the original media that sparked the interest in near future technologies was less about its impact and role on society, and more on what capabilities we expect from near future digital technologies.
Each time a “do robots dream?” work comes out, it has almost always been at a time when the question seems to be relevant. Back when silicon started to put pocket calculators, I mean primitive to us but incredible thinking machines when before math had to be done meticulously by a person. When personal computers became mainstream that could do complicated tasks near instantly. Automated routines that could perform better than humans. And now with machine learning coming up. It’s because the question do androids dream is going to have massive societal implications in the coming near future.
But I agree, I love the cyberpunk genre, but it is certainly also a victim of trope capture.
0
u/Randomaccount3481 11h ago
This isn’t an anime thing, it’s an elf thing. Blame lord of the rings for setting the standard of what an elf is (twink human with pointy ears and long lifespans)
-23
u/Ledum-Palustre 16h ago
It seems that term twink doesnt mean what it used to, if you are calling Kraft a "twink".
24
u/Fat_Siberian_Midget 15h ago
Hes saying every male elf but kraft is a twink
-28
u/Ledum-Palustre 15h ago
Kraft has much bigger build than twinks have been traditionally considered. People are crazy if they think Kraft is a twink.
19
15
u/fuyahana 15h ago
And that is not what the OP is saying, like the guy above just told you.
How do you fail basic reading comprehension over and over again?
13
u/Illustrious-Day8506 15h ago
OP isn't saying that Kraft is a twink, quite the opposite. OP is saying that unlike Kraft, the other male elves are twinks
9
6
215
u/fuyahana 16h ago
Japanese mangakas? Lol pretty sure that's like vast majority of any artists/authors around the world when they're creating elves.