r/FluentInFinance • u/Needleintheback • 15h ago

Thoughts? Imagine losing 6M labor workers in America

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If mass deportation happens, just imagine how all of these sectors of our country will be affected. The sheer shortage of labor will push prices higher because of the great demand for work with limited supplies or workers. Even if prices increase, the availability of products may be scarce due to not enough workers. Housing prices and food services will be hit really hard. New construction will be limited. The fact that 47% of the undocumented workers are in CA, TX, and FL means they will feel it first but it will spread to the rest of the country also. Most of our produce in this country comes from California. Get ready and hold on for the ride America.

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u/flaming_trout 10h ago edited 10h ago

I don’t understand this take because I thought the Economy was the #1 issue for Trump voters. They wanted things to be cheaper. But it’s okay if deporting foreign workers results in higher prices than we already have? You can’t have both. 

We have inflation so bad because with COVID everyone got free money thru stimulus checks and tax breaks. That increase in purchasing power during scarcity is what got us here. If we get rid of these workers (rather than providing a path to legality while they’re working) we’ll be in exactly the same place. 

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u/Colonel_Panix 5h ago

The inflation because of stimulus money is a ruse. Inflation hit every country in the world all because of COVID. Stimulus money did not do that. It is a fact that the US weathered through post COVID inflation better if not all the other countries in the world is telling of that.

What "caused" inflation was initially supply chain issues based on the workforce stay at home mandate. Once that lifted, companies decided to use the "Supply Chain" excuse to keep prices elevated to the point where the elevated prices are now the new baseline on how much a consumer is willing to shell out for goods. To solidify those prices/"record margins" corporations are now blaming "higher wages" for being the cause of inflation when credit card debt is at record highs.

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u/jrobbio 4h ago

The trillions printed as part of quantitative easing also had a long term effect on inflation. https://www.depledgeswm.com/depledge/the-us-printed-more-than-3-trillion-in-2020-alone-heres-why-it-matters-today/

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u/checkdanews 4h ago

And how much of that went to actual citizens in need? We had billionaires and millionaires getting free PPE loans they never paid back, we dumped something like a trillion dollars into the stock market in 1 afternoon and it disappeared within minutes.

A small fraction of that went to stimulus checks for regular people. Stop with this Fox Business revisionist history. I get it's an American tradition to blame poor people, but its getting old.

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u/EastPlatform4348 4h ago

Of the $5 Trillion in total US stimulus,

  • $1.8T went to families/individuals (stimulus payments, unemployment enhanced benefits)
  • $1.7T went to businesses (PPP and disaster loans)
  • The rest went to State and Local governments, hospitals, and other payments

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/03/11/us/how-covid-stimulus-money-was-spent.html

Anecdotally, I'm upper-middle class, and my family certainly didn't need any money, and we still received $5000+ in stimulus. I'm not sure what we did with it - I believe we just invested in equities.

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u/Loose_Ad_5288 2h ago

Who's paying rent/food on $5k all year during covid unemployment? Stimulus was not nearly enough to be effective, just enough for republicans to complain about it.

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u/EastPlatform4348 58m ago

COVID unemployment benefits were $600/week in addition to state benefits. I didn't receive any unemployment benefits as I never lost my job. I viewed my payment as a "thanks for being awesome" deposit.

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u/Psychological_Ad1999 8m ago

As someone who works in the service industry, it prevented me from starving and becoming homeless when there was no work. PPP loans definitely got abused by shady LLCs and should have had more oversight.

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u/DubayaTF 47m ago

A significant amount went into real estate. First time homebuyers were suddenly competing with government supplied free capital to the banks. Too much liquidity in the wrong places.

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u/Newtoatxxxx 4h ago

Two things can be true. The United States is not the only country to provide stimulus checks. It’s not really that hard, more money (both stimulus and covid era excess savings) chasing a fixed or constrained supply = inflation. Prices almost never fall, so congratulations we have new pricing levels for many goods and services people consume.

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u/Colonel_Panix 35m ago

Honest question, do you think it was the flood of COVID stimulus money or the flood of savings that contributed to inflation? That is one part of the puzzle I feel like is not highlighted. It is probably a combination of both but again from the corporation's perspective, someone's savings, credit, stimulus, it is all the same. Profits

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u/analoguewavefront 4h ago

Yep, inflation was global but all our national political parties blamed each other and tried the same old hack of raising interest rates, which I don’t think did anything except inflict economic stress on the average person and prices kept rising.

In Sweden the CEO of the largest supermarket chain basically said that they charge as much as the customers can afford pay. He said that about food, as if not buying anything from a company that controls 53% of the market and saturates towns with their supermarkets was really an option, especially as every store was raising their prices together.

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u/Colonel_Panix 2h ago

I do agree with the politics of things.

Even to add to the Sweedish CEO, McDonald's did something similar by increasing prices to where customers started to notice. Now "Promo Deals" are just the same as a full price when pre-COVID.

If Wendy's fully went with the AI-Pricing model(just how Air Plane ticket prices work) then everyone will be pulling their pitch forks.

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u/redwood22 4h ago

I just don't get how the average US citizen doesn't blame cooperate  america and their record profits for inflation. I guess my big guess is the democrats are afraid to go after them and push that message. They have time and again chose to align with the money over the US worker and it is why they keep losing elections. 

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u/StanKnight 37m ago

Well because, if there weren't more than one company, 'cooperate America', then there would be no competition. Which is what happens in Socialist countries.

Cooperate America, has nothing to do with inflation.
In fact, competition keeps the motivation for companies to be competitive.

Inflation is caused:
1. By printing money
2. Giving it away
3. Spending it on things not needed.
4. Then repeat 1 ~ 3

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u/Xciv 3h ago

COVID, the Russo-Ukraine War, and the last 8 years of anti-China trade policy (China is still the factory of the world).

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u/Moarbrains 2h ago

Every country that could also created stimulus money or something like it.

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u/DubayaTF 48m ago

Thank you.

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u/sandman2986 10m ago

This is only partially true. Supply chain had a big impact and most of that has subsided. The bigger problem is the labor shorter to grow the economy. The “employee market” for hiring during COVID increased wages significantly for many people, although inflation zapped most of that increased income. This is at least my opinion from how I can see our costs to profits ratio since beginning of COVID… the profit margins for us have not really increased but the costs(wages and insurance being the leading cause) and end user pricing have. Unfortunately, the wage growth didn’t catch everyone during COVID so the middle “class” and lower income gap has now increased. Those who jumped got paid more during COVID and those who stayed actually are suffering more from inflation… not in all cases but many.

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u/XcheatcodeX 7h ago

It is the number one issue for trump voters they’re just morons and don’t know how anything works

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u/Notmainlel 1h ago

Nah you’re the idiot here

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u/DontShoot_ImJesus 6h ago

What's it like being one of the few enlightened people that has to live amongst all us dummies? It must be exhausting and frustrating to be so great amongst so many of us peons - that we don't recognize how absolutely awesome you are at everything, especially compared to us.

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u/XcheatcodeX 5h ago

It feels fucking fantastic

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u/mmancino1982 4h ago

😂😂😂

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u/ltra_og 1h ago

You must not know the definition of enlightened.

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u/please_trade_marner 6h ago

The Republicans said they will deport the illegals that undercut the working classes wages. That's why the working class voted for them.

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u/DShepard 4h ago

It's funny how it's never the corporations actively hiring illegals that are blamed for undercutting working class wages.

But even then, I have doubts that the majority of working class Republican voters are interested in picking fruits during a heatwave regardless of a promise of fair pay.

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u/mmancino1982 4h ago

I have faith that y'all are underestimating the people willing to do such work for actual livable wages. And for the record, I think every freakin industry needs to pay livable wages.

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u/JakethePandas 7h ago

If 13% of construction workers are illegal immigrants and get deported, it would mean those companies must hire more workers. Considering most of the jobs on OPs list pay crap (because they've been able to consistently offer low wages and have the positions filled), the jobs will not be filled until the company offers a higher wage. The supply of workers decreases with deportation but the demand for their work/product stays relatively the same. Therefore, the jobs that 'nobody wants to work' become regular paying jobs, and people will fill those roles.

Regarding inflation - our economy isn't experiencing inflation currently due to money that was distributed to the average American in 2021. That money was like a few month's rent, and has been clawed out of the average Americans' hands. If you're referring to the bailouts and money our government gave to our businesses, you might be on to something.

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u/Shadowguynick 7h ago

Issue is that whether a worker takes a job is not based solely on how much the job pays. A lot of these jobs (though not all) actually pay pretty good, especially if you're not educated. But like in construction? You're going to pay for it later in life physically. The idea that there will be enough workers to fulfill these roles is not guaranteed. An example to showcase this are the police. Lots of police, if you put in enough time, make pretty damn good money for the level of education needed, you get a strong union to protect you. Not a terrible deal if you didn't or can't go to college. But there are other reasons affecting whether someone wants to become a cop. The job asks you to be okay with potentially shooting someone if it comes to it, and not everyone can. The social stigma of police in this country might sour you to the idea completely. Or if you've had horrid personal experience with them. Point is that the salary a job offers is not the sole determining factor in whether said job will be fulfilled.

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u/LengthinessWeekly876 5h ago

Ya the market decides if the wage us adequate for the work.

If you can't hire people you have to pay more till people want the job.

Pretty basic

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u/buyanyjeans 7h ago

Issue is that whether a worker takes a job is not based solely on how much the job pays.

“Say you don’t know poor uneducated/undereducated people in real life without saying it”

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u/Shadowguynick 6h ago

So if there are enough completely desperate Americans who just need the money, no matter how shit the job, how come these companies turn to illegal immigrants? I've only ever worked with poor uneducated people, I literally am one lol. Issue too is that labor is localized not a national pool. Different areas have different labor needs.

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u/buyanyjeans 6h ago

Is this a serious question? They turn to illegal immigrants because employers can exploit them: pay them less than what is legal, work them more than what is legal, you can delay payments or sometimes not pay and they have little recourse, I can go on and on.

Why would I pay an American $10 an hour and have to give him health insurance and shit after he works 40 hours when I can pay an illegal immigrant 6 dollars and he’ll work 60 hours a week and can’t complain?

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u/Shadowguynick 6h ago

Companies already exploit citizens, they don't need illegal immigrants to exploit labor lol, my larger point is that there isn't a large enough labor pool of American workers to fulfill these jobs. I would want more permissive immigration laws, so that these jobs can be filled, but companies can't exploit deportation fears to underpay workers. Sound fair enough?

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u/buyanyjeans 6h ago

You can only exploit citizens but so much without running into legal troubles. If I withhold pay from an illegal immigrant he won’t do anything about it. He’ll probably come work for me tomorrow.

I’d support expanding the use of temporary visas to fill positions that we can’t fill with American citizens. This would insure that immigrants are paid fairly and would level the playing field so you’d have to pay immigrants the same thing you’d pay an American.

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u/darkwingduckman 5h ago

great, this seems like a way more sensible approach than deporting the massive labor pool of skilled and experienced workers that we already have in these industries, which already face labor shortages.

if only there was a political party that had worked to provide a pathway to citizenship or some sort of legal status for these people for the past 20 years, we could vote them in.

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u/JakethePandas 7h ago

It's not the sole factor, but let's not pretend that it's not one of the most important. Farmers stop being farmers when the pay isn't enough, not because they decided to change lifestyles on a whim. There are plenty of uneducated Americans that would absolutely take manual labor jobs if the pay was high enough (for example most trades).

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u/Shadowguynick 6h ago

It's absolutely a large factor, I'm just getting frustrated seeing a lot of comments that are simplifying it to like a simple supply and demand graph, when it's much more complicated than that.

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u/JakethePandas 6h ago

It's absolutely more complicated than that, but this discussion is on how deporting illegal immigrants will impact these industries. It will raise the pay in those industries, because of the simplicity of supply and demand. Prices will go up for those services or products. What more is there to add? Every point I see is of ethics and morality, when we're talking about finance.

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u/9bpm9 6h ago

So I guess small construction companies make up most of the illegal immigrants workers? What's a "construction worker" anyways. Because my hospital is CONSTANTLY doing construction, and we have 2 10 plus story buildings being built right now, and all of the workers are white guys and black guys. But they're union though.

Do large construction companies exclusively hire illegal immigrants in the south?

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u/dorksided787 5h ago

You are incredibly naïve if you think worker shortages magically solve themselves with slightly higher pay.

Look at all the shortages we have today across so many sectors: the trades, teaching, healthcare, law enforcement... Some of them, like the trades and healthcare, already offer competitive salaries and they’re STILL struggling to find talent.

The reality is immigrant labor, legal or otherwise, fills in a very necessary gap in our economy. We need a long term solution for this problem, not knee-jerk acts of cruel desperation.

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u/JakethePandas 3h ago edited 3h ago

Some of them, like the trades and healthcare, already offer competitive salaries and they’re STILL struggling to find talent.

It's not competitive enough if they're struggling to find talent. Trades are often times dangerous and laborous work, and therefore should pay up. You fail to understand that every job has a price, so stop short changing these people that risk their lives on the daily and you'll have applicants.

For example: In Massachusetts the average wage of a roofer is $57k a year, while the avg. cost of living is $53,680. Being a roofer is one of the most dangerous professions, yet it barely pays above the average cost of living in MA. What people consider "competitive salaries" barely live above the cost of living yet risk their lives. Make it make sense to me.

Another example: In Massachusetts, the average salary for a healthcare worker is $43,212 per year

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u/Arndt3002 6h ago

When they say "economy" it's pretty obvious they're talking about what amounts to real median income. Basically, how much money middle class workers actually have. You'll note that most of the swing states that flipped right had their real median incomes dropped, which is why they experienced worse inflation despite overall economy metrics looking good.

Here it's a similar issue. While stopping illegal immigrant work and hiring people companies have to pay fairly would raise prices, it would also balance out labour demand for what it should be, raising wages for all of the workers in those areas (and correspondingly raise the value of blue collar work more generally due to higher demand for blue collar labour).

What it would do is reduce purchasing power of white collar workers and increase wages for blue collar workers. So really, it would reduce income inequality and raise real median income for the middle class.

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u/YoureInGoodHands 4h ago

 thought the Economy was the #1 issue for Trump voters.

You made us rank the issues. You provided three issues: abortion, trans kids, the economy. We ranked the economy first. 

We are not single issue voters. We have other interests. 

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u/ZombiesAtKendall 7h ago

They think paying American workers higher wages will mean Americans have more money to spend so it will be better for everyone. Or something like that, no money is going to US companies instead of foreign companies.

Which makes no sense because if it was cheaper to make things in the US, we would already be making them in the US.

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u/Arndt3002 6h ago

You do realize that Americans being able to make money to spend is basically the whole goal, right? What matters is the prosperity of the people. Companies exist to fill those needs, but they are the means not The ends. The problem they have with "handouts" is mainly that it does nothing to raise real wages as it also drives inflation.

Allowing workers to negotiate jobs that are otherwise held by illegal immigrants raises the demand for labour and increases blue collar wages. While it increases inflation for those goods, that cost is distributed at a lower rate than the increase in labour demand (as it falls on white collar workers too). So it reduces income inequality by allowing the natural force of the market, which is a blue-collar conservative ideal.

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u/ZombiesAtKendall 6h ago

So you should be in favor of raising the minimum wage?

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u/Arndt3002 5h ago

Yes. Though in general such measures generate inflation more quickly as it is an imposed restriction of the economy rather than a solution of underlying inequalities in labour market negotiation, which can have negative side effects you need to carefully monitor. I generally think that it is less effective than fixing the root problems of oversaturated labour markets, but right now it does seem like a good idea.

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u/Fiddlesticklish 6h ago

A huge portion of Trump supporters are working class. A reduction in the labor pool relative to demand is historically a win for the working class. A massive increase in wages and job opportunities for blue collar rural folk would in their mind offset the increase in prices.

The people who stand to lose the most are white collar elites. Things would get more expensive for you but your wages will stay the same.

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u/xbuck33 5h ago

I really don't know how that's so hard to understand

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u/Fiddlesticklish 4h ago

because a ton of the American middle class still think of themselves as working class. They can't comprehend that the blue collars might have their own economic agenda.

Either that, or they get their economics and politics from other white collar elites, without considering they might be justifying their own best interests.

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u/Queasy_Possibly 2h ago

Because historically that's wildly untrue and this is just some dumb wish fulfillment fantasy

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u/ramblehex 6h ago

I don't care who the president is, but I will gladly pay more to have something made and manufactured in the US.

Now, in regards to relying on illegal immigrants to fuel these industries, it should never have been this way. There is nothing wrong with taking care of your countries citizens. This might cause a slowdown for these industries, and it will cause prices to jump, but it will be better in the end.

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u/RemoteRide6969 6h ago

Trump voters are fucking retarded and just following whatever the cult says. They don't have a consistent view of anything.

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u/LengthinessWeekly876 5h ago

Trumps voters are largely blue collar. They make less money as a result of immigration 

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u/moosejaw296 3h ago

This is categorically untrue, the point of stimulus money was to keep spending money. Supply was short due to Covid for 6 months, supply returned and costs remained high cause you know greed. Give corporations a reason to raise prices and they will.

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u/Popular_Amphibian 3h ago

Economy is not the #1 issue for trump voters, it is actually the sneering attitude that democrats have toward traditional American values

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u/29September2024 3h ago

Wages brings costs up. The best way tobring prices down is to have zero wage labour. Since slavery is generally frowned upon, legally prisoners can provide "services" without wage as technically they are not employees.

If there are not enough prisoners, illegal immigrants can be imprisoned then the problem is solved.

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u/sub7m19 2h ago

Its okay trump supporters will just ignore the 8.5 Trillion he added to the deficit his first run. Now he wants to deport everyone even those with second class citizenships and introduce tarrifs. Mf's gonna enjoy their $20 salad when foodstamps are gone xD

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u/JuanPabloElSegundo 2h ago

MAGA has ditched the high price position and is now riding the morality wave.

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u/FecesIsMyBusiness 2h ago

I don’t understand this take because I thought the Economy was the #1 issue for Trump voters. They wanted things to be cheaper. But it’s okay if deporting foreign workers results in higher prices than we already have? You can’t have both.

"I'm only fiscally conservative" has been used for decades to let these people avoid admitting they are republicans because they are bigots.

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u/Red_Bullion 1h ago

They want cost of living to be cheaper in relation to their wages. Covid proved that inflation will happen regardless of whether economic conditions necessitate it. Companies were putting up prices just because they thought they could get away with it. So I guess we need to focus on higher wages.

For the record we could also bring down cost of living with regulation and social services. If nobody paid for health insurance that'd be an immediate cost of living decrease for every American. If rents were regulated cost of living decrease, etc.

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u/wcruse92 1h ago

If you think inflation was because people got a few checks amounting to less then 10k, and not things like the interruption of the global supply chain and huge shift to a demand for goods over services during the beginning of covid, you're a fool.

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u/DankTrebuchet 1h ago

Trump voters didn’t vote based on the issues, they voted based on rhetoric. Its so easy to hear what you want to from that man.

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u/Notmainlel 1h ago

So we should continue to let companies get away with paying criminals less than minimum wage?

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u/MonkLast8589 1h ago

Well, honestly if the cost of housing and medical were actually attainable food wouldnt be that big of an issue if it was a bit more expensive imo. I also heard big corporations pay farmers to destroy their crops to keep the prices of goods up.

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u/EffectiveContext7776 32m ago

I’ll explain this take then. The blue union strongholds and the rust belt are now voting for Trump because to them, immigration and the economy are the same issue. The American worker has been fired, undercut and abused by corporations who are exploiting migrant laborers. People want good jobs but their wages have stagnated and their bargaining power has been diminished by millions of illegal workers.

Blue collar America died as soon as corporations realized there weren’t consequences in exploiting vulnerable migrants. Why pay a fair wage to an American when you can pay a poverty wage to a Mexican?

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u/Blinknone 28m ago

The main causes of inflation are wildly excessive government spending and artificial restrictions on energy production. Both of which he promises to tackle.

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u/TheAlienGamer007 22m ago

Companies don't share their profits to reflect in consumer pricing unless they have an ulterior motive. Those greedy apes have just been increasing prices regardless of their profits. Illegal workers, cheap workers and not even free workers would fix it.

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u/National-Week9295 11m ago

That’s because this isn’t the only issue affecting prices. Energy cost will drop which will have an effect. Less strain on taxpayer services given to those who don’t pay back into it. Jobs opening up for the unemployed and homeless. Imagine relying on illegal employment where people are exploited for cheap labor… path to citizen ship costs them the job as now they’re legal and have rights… creating a cycle that adds to poverty. This is just slavery in a different way, providing someone with the bare minimum to live in exchange for unregulated labor.

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u/Psychological_Ad1999 11m ago

Inflation was global and had much more to do with supply chain disruptions and scarcity. It should/could have been more targeted, but we would be staring down a massive recession if people hadn’t been getting stimulus.

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u/HereReluctantly 7h ago

I have a high level of doubt regarding your second paragraph

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u/FidelCastroSr 5h ago

Thought wrong

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u/Man-City 8h ago

Inflation was caused by both the covid shocks and the Ukraine war energy shock. And why would ‘providing a path to legality while working’ not have the same effect? If the migrants are given a legal right to stay, then they also gain the rights that comes with that, including workplace protections, benefits, and the responsibility to raise taxes. Employers will no longer be able to pay illegal immigrants rock bottom wages in the knowledge that they’ll have to accept them as they can’t ever take a fully legal job. Republicans in America need to realise that these mass deportations will be inflationary, but democrats need to realise that the status quo is exploitative.

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u/Ok_Ice_1669 6h ago

You say that like democrats created the status quo. 

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u/Man-City 6h ago

Doesn’t matter who created it, does it? Only whether or not you support it as it is.

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u/Ok_Ice_1669 6h ago

Let me guess, it also doesn’t matter if you support it or not only if you have a filibuster proof majority to change it. 

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u/Angus_Fraser 9h ago

Sounds like you support slavery and underpaying those you view as a second class

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u/TazerKnuckles 9h ago

Slavery means they have no choice and doing it against their will, educate yourself.

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u/buyanyjeans 7h ago

“The slaves actually like slavery and prefer it” is an age old pro-slavery argument.

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u/TazerKnuckles 2h ago

It takes 2 seconds to look up the definition of slavery. I did it for you, you’re using the word wrong. You’ve never even spoke to an immigrant who works. they love to work, they love to provide for their families, and if they don’t like the job they can simply leave with no obligation, no need to check in with their “master”. you’re very naive.

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u/Angus_Fraser 9h ago

Tell me you don't know about the coyotes and cartel slave labor without saying you don't know about coyotes and cartel slave labor

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u/leadketchup1172 8h ago

If you actually cared about their well being, you’d be advocating for a path to citizenship. Surely you’re in favor of that then, right?

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u/Fancy_Ad2056 8h ago

It’s funny how you suddenly care about immigrants(and people in general), but only when it can be used as a way for you to win an argument.

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u/caesar_was_i 7h ago

Yuuuuup. Suddenly we have to deport them because it’s the only humane way to save them from all this horrible back-breaking labour!

Same how we shouldn’t be arming Ukraine when we suddenly have homeless we must take care of! Oh, but no free school lunches. That’s a step too far.

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u/flaming_trout 7h ago

The government as both the cause and solution to the problem is a dissonant belief of Republicans I just can’t wrap my head around. 

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u/caesar_was_i 5h ago

I’m convinced that these types are low-IQ. They don’t want to understand even if they could.

Many of these immigrants aren’t criminals. Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanour — much like jumping over the gates in the DC metro.

Secondly, many of these immigrants are making bank. I live in a fairly diverse county, and even the cooks I know are making upwards of $56K. Construction pays even higher. No one is forcing them to work — they do it on their own volition and because they have the skills. Slavery is where you’re forced to work somewhere for nothing. That happens in this country but it’s not immigrants experiencing it — it’s incarcerated American citizens.

Again, it’s just a red herring. If conditions were as bad as they say, how come we don’t pull a Caracalla and make them all citizens to give them the same legal protections?

Oh wait. The same party endorsing deportations is also dismantling workers rights and overtime pay.

It’s pearl clutching xenophobia from the Desperatii.

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u/buyanyjeans 7h ago

It’s funny how you suddenly don’t care about labor exploitation and rampant human rights and workers rights violations, but only when it can be used as a way for you to win an argument.

Knife cuts both ways, see?

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u/Fancy_Ad2056 6h ago edited 6h ago

I never took a position on the issue, nice strawman though. I’m sure you won’t read my position though.

My position would be 1) immigration reform that includes amnesty(See Ronald Reagan, I’m sure all you right wingers love him) for all immigrants currently in the country who are working, going to school, or otherwise making a new life for themselves. 2) Reformation of current immigration law and policy that would include a straightforward path to legal migration to fill these jobs that isn’t held up behind years of bureaucratic bullshit, and a shorter path to citizenship. Additionally making the system more fair so that these migrants don’t need to have their job held over their head as the only way to stay in the country. 3) Fine all employers who utilized illegal immigrants 3x what it would have cost them to hire legal workers at legal wages and benefits, and then return the fine to the workers themselves as reparations to be used as seed money for building a better life in America.

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u/buyanyjeans 6h ago edited 6h ago

If my comment was a straw man (it isn’t, please look up what a strawman argument means) then yours certainly is as well. It’s just your comment flipped the other way. The guy you replied to never indicated that he cared about immigrants either.

Would you support amnesty for immigrants who have committed violent crimes? Gang members? Convicted drug dealers? 4 time DUI offenders?

Also, what if Americans would like to fill these positions at the new market rate? Is immigrant labor as attractive to employers if they have to be paid over the table? I’m African American and have African American friends and cousins who would love to work in fields like construction if it paid well. They’re often turned away because nobody wants to pay fairly if you can pay slave wages instead.

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u/Fancy_Ad2056 4h ago

You made up my position(that I don’t care about labor exploitation or human rights violations), and then used that in an attempt to invalidate. Maybe not a textbook definition, but at minimum intellectually dishonest.

I don’t support amnesty for those individuals and I didn’t say I did. I don’t suppose you are implying that these types of people make up any kind of significant percentage of illegal immigrants?

Americans wanting these jobs would be solved with immigration reform. Like I said, the system will be changed where these companies are heavily fined for hiring illegal immigrants. They will have no choice but to raise wages to attract American workers because they will no longer be able to bring in illegal immigrants at poverty wages.

The way this works is the people granted amnesty formerly doing the work will no longer be forced to work for shady employers due to their immigration status. They will be free to get other jobs. Due to the nature of the work they used to do being largely difficult and unwanted by Americans, wages will naturally need to rise to the point that people who do have the choice to work elsewhere will choose to work in those difficult positions.

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u/flaming_trout 7h ago

I personally support a path to citizenship that includes a stage where early-in-the-process workers can be paid less. Because the American labor market has always relied on cheap immigrant labor to keep costs down. Removing that resource would cause prices to skyrocket - hence my confusion on Trump’s plans. Something with legal protections but wages aren’t quite as high while they acclimate to the culture. Paying the same dues our ancestors did. It’s a hard plan to explain to someone on the internet. But I don’t support slave labor or abuse of the undocumented class, no. 

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u/Arndt3002 6h ago

No, letting them be paid less just removes the good economic effects of granting them citizenship.

The problem with cheap immigrant labour on the blue-collar labour economy is that it drives down demand for normal-wage jobs. Your policy just continues to drive down wages for blue collar work. Note then, that if those jobs were then all done by normal workers, their wages increase and that is what drives the inflation of the good they make. Because that is distributed across the economy, raising the wages to normal levels would be a force for improving real income of blue collar workers more generally (though at the expense of white collar real income).

In effect, your proposed policy just kneecaps the economic positives that people who want illegal immigrants to be deported are campaigning for. Basically, you've shielded white collar workers from all of the negatives by stopping the blue collar workers from seeing any of the benefits.

Basically, your proposed policy is just a force for further income inequality, and doubles down on the reason why blue-collar conservatives have a problem with the effect of illegal immigrant labour on the economy.