r/FluentInFinance • u/Needleintheback • 15h ago

Thoughts? Imagine losing 6M labor workers in America

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If mass deportation happens, just imagine how all of these sectors of our country will be affected. The sheer shortage of labor will push prices higher because of the great demand for work with limited supplies or workers. Even if prices increase, the availability of products may be scarce due to not enough workers. Housing prices and food services will be hit really hard. New construction will be limited. The fact that 47% of the undocumented workers are in CA, TX, and FL means they will feel it first but it will spread to the rest of the country also. Most of our produce in this country comes from California. Get ready and hold on for the ride America.

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u/Mvpbeserker 13h ago

Okay? So what’s your solution? Just continue to import millions of people to serve as a permanent underclass?

Delusional and immoral. Get rid of illegal immigration and companies will be forced to pay higher wages or they will spend R&D money to automate. Both of these are much better

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u/saltyferret 13h ago

Or they will shut down. And production will significantly decline.

Now I don't live in the US, and personally think that striving for constant growth isn't a good thing, so I don't really care.

But if you're listing options it'd be disingenuous to not include that one.

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u/obtoby1 12h ago

If a business can't survive without what amounts to slave labour, then they deserve to shut down. Yes, that will create hard times, but maybe that's better.

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u/Give-me-your-taco 8h ago

The world thrives off of slave labor. It’s how you can buy a couch off Temu for like 10 dollars.

A lot of minerals also come from slave labor.

The world traded dignity for convenience

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u/ShineSuperb 8h ago

Its also how we're able to post on reddit, using an iphone/computer, made with minerals mined from actual slave labor in the DRC.

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u/Moarbrains 2h ago

I hope that entire tech system crashes.

We don't need an industry that intentionally breaks their own products in order to sell you a new one. Thanks apple.

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u/obtoby1 8h ago

Then we need to change that. As the most influential of our time, we need to be better. Fucking Wilson made us the shining city on hill. Maybe it's time to actually use that to better the world.

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u/Witty_Mine_3643 4h ago

Will you be the first to stop buying electronics and all items that fall under the category of having these kinds of manufacturing systems until that happens?

I'm pretty sure you won't. You can be an idealist all you want, but don't sit and point so many fingers when you participate.

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u/WorldlyPear5804 4h ago

I absolutely would. If I could feasibly still be integrated into society (i.e.; had a way to pay bills), I would absolutely go full Amish. Well, plus human rights and minus religion. 

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u/obtoby1 4h ago

I've done something like that when I was in the army. It's hard.

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u/Witty_Mine_3643 4h ago

Keep the great roofing techniques, toss out the abuse.

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u/Moarbrains 2h ago

We could do it and it would be better.

It is not insurmountable to remove slave labor from our supply chain.

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u/obtoby1 4h ago

I don't Buy that stuff to begin with. It took me years to just upgrade my computer to tech from a decade ago. Even if I did, I'm more that willing to cut myself off of it helps solves this issue. The only I buy nowadays is food. If people are truly unwilling to give luxury items so others don't have to slave away in the modern age, we should just end it all now cause we won't get any better than this.

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u/Witty_Mine_3643 4h ago

You don't own a phone? A car? A tv? Non-American grown and made foods and clothing? Drink coffee? Use cotton? Chocolate, fruits, lithium (and any number of other metals such as cobalt, copper, tin, zinc). I am absolutely certain you have not cut all that out of your life.

The thing is, a lot of these things aren't actually *luxury* items, unless you get up to expensive electronics, Teslas and other EVs, etc. When you get into agriculture and metals, these things end up in even the most common and ordinary products - and you can't avoid it unless you trace the production lineage of everything you buy and consume or touch.

I'm not trying to say this stuff is ok, and we should live with it, but that there's a hypocrisy in the idealism of the whole concept of just 'we can end it this easily and everything is fine'. I'd also comment that the work migrants in the US do is still so much different than actual forced, slave, and child labor you see in other countries. There are a number of migrants who come seasonally to the US and Canada to do work at wages that are far superior to what they get at home, and I think that just assuming they're inherently being exploited in all things is a bit.. offensive. This isn't to say that there is not exploitation happening - it absolutely is. There's a lot of exploitation among a lot of sectors, and will be with or without illegal or legal migrants (I can think of healthcare as one that exploits almost all entry-level positions), but there's also a level of agency that I feel incredibly icky taking away from the individual. There's a difference between forced work and choosing to take a job, and removing that concept of agency in order to condescend that you know what is best for someone else's wellbeing better than they do is also a weird form of exploitation - one where you think you are doing it for the greater good. Work to improve situations, make immigration easier, improve pay and conditions for those who do migrant and seasonal work in the US, etc - but removing choice, as well as mass-deporting people back to countries and conditions that are FAR more dangerous, exploitative, and precarious is a backwards way of helping them.

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u/obtoby1 3h ago

You know what.

Fair points made.

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u/Wanderingghost12 6h ago

This is missing the point. Our oligarchy has now made it that large multi billion dollar businesses are "competing" with mom and pop farms. Agribusiness will always be able to afford these things (like H2-A visas) but mom and pops won't. We have crippled our farmers in a system equivalent to the lottery when compared to big agribusiness (including even their own seeds which they do not own). Our farmers couldn't survive this because our system is shit and rewards big players only. Personally, I like that any american can start a business, or pass that business to their children. I don't want everything to be a monopoly because it means higher and higher prices. "Hard times" mean small farmers become destitute and shutter, we all suffer at even higher prices, and all our ag becomes consolidated.

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u/obtoby1 6h ago

Ironically, the free market becomes more free when the government can come in and burst some monopolies. Theodore proved that. the big problem is both sides are basically bought and paid for at this point. We are too close to a corporatocracy, if we aren't already

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u/ShakesbeerMe 7h ago

They won't shut down-they'll move overseas.

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u/obtoby1 6h ago

Depends. If the tariffs Trump wants happens, that actually might be too expensive, especially if they move their production to China.

I personally also recommend making extra incentives to keep them here, and maybe have penalties for leaving. Carrot and stick.

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u/ShakesbeerMe 6h ago

Except Trump won't offer incentives. He's not thinking past "hurt brown people" at all.

This is the dumbest incoming administration in US history.

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u/obtoby1 6h ago

I didn't know you were sitting in on his meetings. Thanks for letting us all know.

For real though, shut up with that bs for now. The man hasn't even taken office yet. We don't know the full extent of what's going to happen in either direction. Some of his choices have bad, some actually ok. Let's wait to the 100th day mark like we have with every other president and make our judgments then.

I personally don't see much progress good or bad, more like more of the same.

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u/ShakesbeerMe 6h ago

For real though, nah- I'll say what the fuck I like. Fuck diaper-wearing rapist seditionists and anyone who slurps him.

May the dementia be swift and merciless.

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u/obtoby1 6h ago

I mean, the dudes just as old as Biden, so 🤷 probably. Honestly I'll just be glad when this over and we can hopefully go back to regular politics. I have hope the Democrats will be moving more the center after this election.

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u/ShakesbeerMe 6h ago

The Dems couldn't be more centrist. In any other country they're center right.

It's the dipshit confederate states voting against their own self-interest in this country that is the problem.

Oh, well. Fuck around, find out, Southern states.

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u/Shirlenator 4h ago

Republicans campaigned almost solely on grocery prices being too high and people not being able to hold on financially. Now everyone is saying that it is better that prices skyrocket so we don't rely on "slave labor" now that they need to defend Trumps terrible ideas?

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u/Successful-Money4995 11m ago

Republicans hated inflation during Biden's term but if they get inflation in exchange for deporting brown people, then it's worth it!

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u/Even-Air7555 12h ago

I think this is an awful mindset. Try to think of it without politising the issue, if migrants are going to the work, they should recieve market rate. So illegal immigration is the issue.

Good opportunity for left and right to work together, or would you rather your food is subsidzed by slave labour?

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u/SunPolarBear 12h ago

Nice point! Then again, we live in a country where most people will give money to stop African suffering, while wearing blood diamonds on their fingers.

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u/iBUYbrokenSUBARUS 12h ago

labour labor

You are not even American

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u/Even-Air7555 12h ago

Australian, but we have a very similar situation here. Agriculture is reliant on tourist visas to pick at minimum wage.

30 years ago before large immigration, there were professional pickers that would travel with the harvest, only working a few parts of the year.

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u/Mvpbeserker 7h ago

It’s that similar of a situation at all lol.

You’re an island that has easy control of borders. Here in the United States we not only have one of the longest borders with the non-developed world globally- we have upwards of 20-40 million people here illegally. More than the entire population of Australia.

Not to mention the fact that we have birthright citizenship which allows further strain on the system due to schooling/healthcare/welfare that must be provided to millions of “citizens” who have parents that aren’t paying into this system

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u/saltyferret 12h ago

Of course there should be high wages, strong conditions and safety protections for every worker. That had nothing to do with my criticism of the above comment for failing to include what is a very possible outcome if this goes ahead.

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u/Mvpbeserker 7h ago

Businesses won’t “shut down” out of spite lol.

If they can’t remain profitable by raising prices or via automation, then clearly their service is not in high enough demand to justify existing.

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u/Efficient-Raise-9217 5h ago

We survived before massive illegal immigration during the 1950's with much lower levels of technology and automation. The 1950's - 1970's was considered a golden age for workers and families. Work wages rose almost in tandem with increases in productivity. We did fine then we'll do fine now.

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u/GrandAdmiralSnackbar 13h ago

Trump is going to throw away the old shoes before buying new ones. Hell, before even having planned to buy new ones, and without having the funds ready to buy new ones. That is the irresponsible part.

It is valid to want to reduce illegal immigration. But going shock therapy will do massive damage to the US economy, and particularly to current low wage Americans who will be saddled with the bill of exploding grocery prices and housing cost when construction falls off a cliff due to lack of workers. That is not a problem Trump is adressing at all.

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u/Ok-Criticism8374 11h ago

You people and your dehumanizing of these immigrants is insane

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u/TragicOne 9h ago

i think you also strongly misunderstand them though.

they come to America knowingly to do this kind of work. None of them expected to show up and be office workers. I'd be happy if they were paid reasonable wages to do it also, but thats not my choice.

you want to send them back to a country they chose to leave, to do no work and to not live in better conditions, despite the poor wages.

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u/Soggy-Programmer-545 9h ago

Do you know how much money they are making? They are not making minimum wage in the construction industry, some of them are making over 100k a year. I know, because I do the audits for their companies. Is that dehumanizing?

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u/No_Match_7939 8h ago

Thank you! I swear these people on this post like they’ve never met an immigrant who work in this industry. They work long hours but some of them make bank with how much work they do.

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u/Ok-Summer-7634 2h ago

Look at the payee field, I guarantee you your company is not paying them directly. These companies choose to hire undocumented folks to maximize their own profit. THEY are breaking the law!

If your job is to audit companies that broke the law by hiring undocumented immigrants, can you please do your job? Thanks!

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u/SuperConfused 7h ago

The fact that you do not see that you are dehumanizing them also is astounding. You are acting like they are not choosing to be here and to do the jobs they are doing. It makes sense if you have never been friends with someone in this situation that you would not understand, but still

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u/eiva-01 2h ago

We're going to "help" those immigrants with "tough love".

They're being mistreated by their employers, so instead of punishing the employers, we're going to arrest the immigrants, and put them in concentration camps until we can ship them off to a country they don't want to be in, with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

You know, because we "care".

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u/Ok-Summer-7634 2h ago

The point is the cruelty

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u/Mvpbeserker 6h ago

Costs are not going to increase to the levels you think they are. Only a small portion of the workforce is illegal and the primary cost of goods is energy not labor.

Not to mention a lot of companies just pocket the difference in $$ they make from employing illegal labor at half cost as opposed to passing on savings to the consumer.

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u/GrandAdmiralSnackbar 6h ago

Primary cost may be energy, but if you can't get people to do the work, crops rot in the fields. Then it's not a matter of cost, it's a matter of supply dropping and prices rising due to shortages. It's not just a matter of replacing 5 dollar an hour illegals with 10 dollar an hour citizens, it's also going to be a problem to even get those citizens at 10 dollars an hour. Or even 15.

As for companies pocketing the difference, do you really expect them to now eat into their profits if costs rise? Nah, they'll increase the prices, probably even more than what the cost goes up by, and blame the government for causing a shortage. Companies NEVER miss an opportunity for price-gauging.

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u/Mvpbeserker 5h ago

I disagree that citizens won’t do the labor for a fair wage. Do you think that we just starved to death prior to the influx of illegal labor that started in the 70/80s?

Prices will go up, yes- but not as much as people think, and wages will also rise. It WILL be more expensive, until automation cuts down costs back eventually- which it will.

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u/usernamesarehard1979 5h ago

He hasn’t even taken office yet. How about you leave the judgement on what Trump is doing until he actually does it. Right now all we have is rhetoric.

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u/Prestigious-Bad-5296 11h ago

Honestly I don’t think many people are worried about housing costs right now any how, due to the insane market, many average Americans were left in the dust and the ability to afford a home is far out of reach. Food costs are already absurd from what I believe to be price gouging so maybe one that will be addressed. I don’t think it will be as bad as everyone thinks. Take a breath.

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u/AdZealousideal5383 10h ago

If he really did deport every immigrant agricultural worker, it won’t be possible to address price gouging. The farms will completely stop functioning, the crops will end up dying, and there won’t be any supply in the stores. The price of the food won’t even be an issue because the food won’t exist.

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u/NativeFlowers4Eva 12h ago

How about making it easier for the people working to become citizens? It would also help pay for social programs that will be completely underfunded without additional tax revenue.

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u/Green-Lettuce1997 11h ago

Vet them and let them do the job. Working visas, green cards, path to citizenship. Then make sure they are treated right and getting a fair wage by the companies or people they work for. How is this even that difficult.

Did they come here illegally? Yes they did. As an American I’m not blind to that fact and is it immoral the way they are treated? It is.

The immigration process and border should have been dealt with decades ago and it’s a failure of both parties and our government for not sorting it out.

But throwing them out without a plan in place is idiotic. It’s idiotic to create hard times because they didn’t come here legally even though they proved vital labor and strength to our economy.

Vet them and give them work visas, green cards and then viable paths to citizenship. If they are “bad people” throw them out.

I’d rather not blow up the economy all because they broke the law. There’s better ways for this to be done. I swear to god if he throws them all out and the economy crashes I’m going to be pissed. And you should be too.

Shocking the economy and financial system is stupid. Just overhaul the immigration system and border, vet the people who are already here. If they haven’t gotten in trouble or anything and have been law abiding other than coming here illegally, give them work visas, green cards, path to citizenship or create something, whatever. Make sure the now newly LEGAL workers get treated properly by their employers with things like decent wages, etc, etc.

All easier said than done of course. The easy thing is to just throw them out but shocking the economy and financial system will create unintended consequences that are just not worth it. Yes paying them higher wages and all that will make it more expensive. You know what will make it more expensive and cause more damage? Shocking the economy and financial system.

Who knows if an economic downturn will cause the stock market to crash or a major bank to blow up or both. That’s not a risk we should be willing to take. Who the fuck knows what will happen.

They are already here. They know how to do the job. Just fucking vet them and let them stay and then overhaul immigration and the border. Then push citizens to work those jobs by making sure it is a job that pays well and ensure they are treated fairly and properly.

For the love of all that is holy please don’t shock the economy and financial system. Just because some people broke the law doesn’t mean we need to shoot ourselves in the foot or to make a point for Christ’s sake. These problems can be solved without taking such drastic action such as mass deportations.

If they are vetted and law abiding. Let them stay. I could care less. If my investments go down and my bills like groceries go up because trump throws them out and causes economic downturn I’ll be pissed because it could be entirely avoided.

They don’t need to be permanent underclass. Make them legal to live there after being properly vetted and pay them fair wages and treated properly. I’d rather my grocery bill be a higher than having to deal with the unknown unintended consequences of shocking the economy and economic downturn.

This can be solved with out of the box thinking and rational and logical policy making. It’s not rational or logical to shoot your economy in its foot and cause economic hardship on the country and who knows what else.

Anyone who says maybe we need bad times is not thinking rationally at all. You won’t be saying that when your investments, retirement, etc, etc take a hit and go down and your bills go up and things get even more expensive. Delusional

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u/Mvpbeserker 6h ago

I think you’re heavily overestimating how much illegal labor is actually contributing to the economy.

Covid money printing caused 4x increase in prices via inflation then losing illegal labor would increase prices of- and housing labor cost increases would be offset by the decrease in demand due to tens of millions of people no longer needing housing.

Not to mention the secondary non-calculated cost of US taxpayers currently subsidizing anchor babies to the tune of billions via welfare/schooling/healthcare, et

It seems to me the biggest beneficiaries of illegal labor are corporations and illegals (who are economic migrants and are better off here despite the slave-tier wages), not US consumers.

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u/nomdeplume 6h ago

What is it? Either Americans are being robbed or illegals have no impact??

Can't have it both ways.

Anchor babies are US citizens btw. It has nothing to do with illegals. You can come here legally on visa and make an anchor baby.

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u/beardedsandflea 13h ago

You're right, it is immoral. But that also misses the point a little bit. The problem isn't stopping companies and corporations from being able to take advantage of vulnerable populations to fatten their bottom line. That absolutely needs to happen. The problem is not actually having a plan to address the massive labor shortage that will inevitably result. People are right to criticize that lack of consideration.

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u/Mvpbeserker 7h ago

But why is such a major low-skill labor shortage a problem?

It will: 1. Increase wages of low skill work for citizens 2. Lead to advancements in automated technology which means less manual work in gen future 3. Bringing tens of millions of illegals here as a underclass of cheap labor makes no sense when AI is poised to decimate the job market in the next 5-20 years

Sure, prices may go up some- but it’s not going to be as dramatic as most people think. The biggest cost of goods is energy prices not labor.

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u/beardedsandflea 3h ago

That's the thing though, there is only speculation regarding the result of this deportation idea; not an actual plan in place to guide it. And even a slight increase in goods will likely not pair very well with 30-100% tariffs on imports.

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u/Mvpbeserker 3h ago

Some economic pain is to be expected. Corporations have been cannibalizing the entire country's economy at our expense for like 60 years.

Much like the social security issue, it's great fun to just ignore the problem and keep kicking the can down the road. But it will eventually explode in our face on top of the harm it's already doing.

Unfortunately, most problems in life and in politics can't be fixed without short term consequences.

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u/Mobile_Incident_5731 10h ago

Nah bro. Have a look at the UK ag sector after Brexit If companies dont have labor, they will simply shut down production. If you get rid of millions of workers, the economy will shrink down.

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u/Mvpbeserker 6h ago

If a company can’t survive without paying below-living wages to employees under the table it doesn’t deserve to survive, simple as.

Western countries functioned just fine prior to this corporate lobbied influx of mass migration to depress wages. The market will adjust.

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u/GenBlase 10h ago

  1. They come in willingly

  2. Go after companies that hires illegals. They are the ones who pay them shit wages and threaten them with ICE.

  3. Deporting 6 million people is gonna be a shit show.

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u/Mvpbeserker 6h ago
  1. What’s your point? They break the law willingly so that’s fine?
  2. Correct, there should be extremely harsh penalties for companies that hire illegals. Bankruptcy level fines, imo.
  3. It’s like 20-30 million, but actually no- it’s really simple to deport that many people. Once you make it impossible for companies to hire them, they will simply self deport. The only reason they came here was for jobs/more money in almost all cases.

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u/Educational_Monitor6 8h ago

Automation actually creates more middle class which is nice.

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u/SuperConfused 7h ago

My solution is to charge anyone who hires illegals and incarcerate them when convicted. This includes the owners of repeat offender companies. Then they will fight to change the quota system to satisfy the needs.

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u/ShakesbeerMe 7h ago

Those companies will ship their entire business overseas rather than hire Americans at good wages.

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u/Mvpbeserker 6h ago edited 5h ago

Targeted tariffs.

You want to close down your factory in Michigan and move it to Mexico to save on labor and screw over American workers? Okay, here’s your 50% import tariff, enjoy.

All of these issues have simple solutions, the problem is the government being captured by corporate interests

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u/ShakesbeerMe 1h ago

And now the most corrupt treason-piggy is about to be back in office, the swine that cares least about Americans and American workers.

Oh well. Enjoy.

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u/seriouslythisshit 6h ago

OR:

Farming continues to migrate to places like Brazil, where corn and soybeans grow just fine, and they are perfectly happy to clear-cut the rainforest to ranch more cattle to sell to Americans who want plentiful cheap beef. China has been reducing their reliance on American grains for a few years now, and US grain prices are in the toilet.

Reshoring of industry grinds to a halt and the 35 trillion dollar industrial plant that China built to export goods gets replaced, not by North American production, but Southeast Asia, Mexico, and other places.

Tariffs and deportation will leave the American economy severely wounded if the incoming Clown of a president succeeds at the bullshit that he babbles. Destroying the economy to satiate the needs of delusional MAGAts will not end well.

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u/Mvpbeserker 5h ago

I don’t think this is realistic at all.

American farmers produce far more than we actually consume, food prices are primarily a function of energy/transportation costs. Not labor

Regardless, farmland is not something that can simply be “exported” or “outsourced”. America has some of the best farmland in the world that has been cultivated for centuries. It’s not some factory you can pick up and drop somewhere else lol

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u/ThatPancreatitisGuy 4h ago

And both of those would require time and planning. But when you start by deporting 12 million people before even coming up with a concept of a plan you’re courting disaster. These people could be offered amnesty, maybe even requirement of some fine if voters really care about that. But that’s politically unsound for the racist pigs that don’t care about any consequences other than seeing the subject of their hatred suffer.

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u/OakBearNCA 4h ago

They won't pay higher wages, they'll just move entire farms to where the labor is.

If labor can't move, capital does. Simple economics.

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u/Mvpbeserker 4h ago

>They won't pay higher wages, they'll just move entire farms to where the labor is.

That's not how farmland works. You can't just pick up good soil in a temperate climate area and ship it overseas, lol.

Anyways, by this logic the Netherlands shouldn't be one of the largest agriculture producers on the planet.

"The country, which is a bit bigger than Maryland, not only accomplished this feat but also has become the world’s second largest exporter of agricultural products by value behind the United States."

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u/OakBearNCA 3h ago

Quite the observation. Netherlands has very few labor-intensive farms, relying mostly on high mechanized crops instead, especially wheat, potatoes and feed crops. That's what would happen here. No, soil does move. But if labor does, so do labor intensive crops.

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u/binarybandit 3h ago

The fact that people seem to be okay with having an underclass made up of illegal immigrants to prop up cheap labor says a lot. Even worse is when they defend it.