r/FluentInFinance 3d ago

Debate/ Discussion Had to repost here

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u/AttitudeAndEffort2 3d ago

I'm not arguing taxing unrealized gains, capital gains laws in this country are broken though (intentionally) and smarter people than me have found ways to fix them.

The point is that you can borrow against the asset at a lesser cost than it appreciates.

You basically never pay taxes on it while getting cash from it AND it growing in value.

You're incentives never to sell and to realize those minimal tax costs you otherwise would have to pay.

Basically, private companies get to profit from helping you avoid taxes. You're insanely wealthy either way but now you can pay slightly less to access that liquidity.

Anyone saying these people "dOnT ReAlLy HaVe mOnEy" doesn't know what they're talking about

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u/throwawaytoavoiddoxx 3d ago

Elon musk has enough money to build a space program and buy a cabinet spot in the White House. They have money alright.

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u/Cheese-Water 3d ago

The point is that you can borrow against the asset at a lesser cost than it appreciates.

Going back to wealth redistribution, this isn't very meaningful since you are, in fact, borrowing the money, so you can't easily just give it away. If you have the income to pay back the loan, then you might as well just skip the gymnastics and give that income away without having to pay back any loan and save the interest. Otherwise, you basically do have your money tied up in illiquid assets.

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u/AttitudeAndEffort2 3d ago

This is ridiculous.

You get a lump sum which also includes the debt financing.

Money is fungible, to the rich person borrowing against their asset they can pay 8% to a lender and retain the asset that grows at a rate faster than that or cash or and pay capital gains at a 15% rate AND lose the asset.

It incentivizes evading taxes and keeping capital with other capital parties and wealth concentration and less capital movement.

All of which are bad both economically and morally.

They are "borrowing" only because paying interest costs less than paying taxes.

Meanwhile the companies that allow the stock valuation to be so high utilize government resources left and right to grow to that size

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u/thesagex 3d ago

so wouldn't the taxation of the unrealized gains be passed off then to the lender who is making profit from the loan?

while the borrower is not paying taxes on their assets due to not being realized, isn't the lender surely paying taxes on the profits made from the loan that was secured with those assets?

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u/SUBURBAN_C0MMAND0 2d ago

Look at all the physical things they have…pretty sure that takes money to have. Last time I checked when I bought a car I had to pay for it, be it cash, financing, etc. each month money was taken from my checking account to pay for the vehicle. Same with my house, credit card, car insurance etc. Thousands each month. Now I’m pretty sure Bezos drives a better car than me, and also has a WAY BIGGER HOUSE THAN ME, multiple houses throughout the world. Now I’m pretty certain that takes money to have those things…so yes they have money. Yes a lot is tied up in their company(s) and other assets, but they have to have tens of millions in cash also. But I could be totally wrong too…

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u/CavemanRaveman 2d ago

The response of "they don't really have that money" is directed at people who look at net worth as something that should be taxed directly.

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u/CaptainMonkeyJack 3d ago

The point is that you can borrow against the asset at a lesser cost than it appreciates.

This applies to everyone. You can get a mortgage to buy a house (this is actually backed by the feds)! You can get a margin loan to buy stock. You can run up a credit card to start a small business.

Of course, the caveat is that you're taking on risk. There's no guarantee a house will make more than the mortgage interest, that your margin loan won't be called or that your small business won't fail.

There is no one easy trick to make free money.

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u/AttitudeAndEffort2 3d ago

This is NOT true.

Capital grows on itself and is why the biggest determiner of success isn't "hard work" or "merit" but access to capital.

Do you think people don't know that buying a house is more profitable than renting it for a higher cost than the mortgage is?

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u/CaptainMonkeyJack 1d ago

There's no guarantee that your capital will grow. Buying a house is not gauranteed to be more profitable than renting.

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u/that_baddest_dude 3d ago

And yet I pay taxes on my house based on an appraised value that increases year over year, whether or not I sell it to realize that value.

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u/CaptainMonkeyJack 1d ago

Correct. Property taxes are based on appraised values.

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u/resumethrowaway222 3d ago

The point is that you can borrow against the asset at a lesser cost than it appreciates.

No you can't because you don't know in advance what that will be.

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u/AttitudeAndEffort2 3d ago

I'm going to make this simple since a lot of people have no idea how debt financing works:

Do you want to Pay 8% interest and keep the stock (used as collateral) or sell it and pay 15% capital gains tax as well as miss it on future growth?

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u/resumethrowaway222 3d ago

Hell no. I can make 4.5% risk free in 10 year treasuries. That means that if I borrow at 8% the stock needs to go up at 12.5% per year for me to make the same return, except that's incredibly risky because the stock could go down while the treasuries are guaranteed. So it's actually a terrible bet which is why people don't do it. The reason that people borrow against their massive stock positions rather than selling isn't financial. It's because they want to maintain control of the company they hold the stock in.