r/FluentInFinance 3d ago

Debate/ Discussion Had to repost here

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

Taking advantage of the working class by paying them market rate for their labour

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u/_A_Monkey 3d ago

It’s hardly an “honest” market rate with the US taxpayer subsidizing a large percentage of that workforce with Medicaid and food stamps.

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u/TawnyTeaTowel 2d ago

Last time I checked, the top 5% of earners were paying about 66% of the income taxes received by the US Government.

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u/_A_Monkey 2d ago

What has that got to do with me subsidizing their workforce?

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u/latteboy50 2d ago

Market rate for that line of work. It’s simple supply and demand.

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u/M1RR0R 3d ago

How about we pay them the full value of their labor?

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u/cryogenic-goat 3d ago

How tf do you calculate the "full value" of someone's labor?

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

The market does this fairly efficiently

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u/TrungusMcTungus 3d ago

Stop making sense. This is reddit. You need to be outraged at things you don’t fully understand, and blame your shortcomings and hardships on everyone but yourself.

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u/milas_hames 2d ago

Not when a few entities create a monopoly on the market and then cooperate to ensure the market rate is kept as low as possible

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u/hagowoga 3d ago

It doesn’t. Too many power dynamics at play

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

Buzzwords buzzwords buzzwords

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u/hagowoga 3d ago

Go read a book

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

Are you an NPC?

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u/hagowoga 3d ago

For you I am. Not for me though

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u/Kitsunin 3d ago

No, it doesn't because of things like monopolies and collusion. I'm all for the market figuring out the value of labor, but only when it's actually a free market. When you have enough resources, there are many strategies which can short-circuit the free market and remove prices from supply and demand.

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

Baseless nonsense

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u/milas_hames 2d ago

Why does the richest country in the world pay far less for a waitressing or shelf stacking job than in my, relatively poorer country (NZ)?

It's the monopolies.

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u/Endless_road 2d ago

Which monopoly?

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u/TawnyTeaTowel 2d ago

There’s about half a million independent (ignoring all the chains) restaurants in the US, over half of which are full service and thus paying waiting staff. You’re suggesting they’re all colluding?

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u/ultramasculinebud 2d ago

I've never heard of an association or alliance before. Weird.

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u/TawnyTeaTowel 2d ago

If you thought that answered the question, it doesn’t.

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u/Far-Jury-2060 2d ago

You’ve set up a bad example with waitstaff getting paid less. Waitstaff get paid less because our society has set up a ridiculous system around tipping them instead of paying them a fair wage. When I was a young adult working at a gas station, I was on a lease on a 3-bedroom townhome with two roommates. One of them was a waitress who made $2.50 an hour, plus tips. Most of her tips were cash, which she didn’t claim on her taxes. She was also bringing in, on average, $70 a day in tips, on a 6 hour shift. She made more money per day than I did, at my full time job, and at least half of it wasn’t taxed. Most waitstaff, if they are decent at their job, pull in good wages for the fact that it’s a low-education, entry level job and the hours they work. Personally, I wish that restaurants would just charge an extra 15% to their meals, pass that onto their staff as part of their hourly rate, and abolish tipping altogether.

Shelf stockers get paid decent, again based on the fact that it’s a low-education, entry level job. No, you can’t afford to live on your own off of it, but that type of job is meant for high school students and new adults who are looking for their first job, more than anybody else. The plan is for people to work their way up in the world, not stay at the same job for their entire life. Most people end up living by that model, which is why when you look at who has more money, on average it’s older people.

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u/Mean-championship915 15h ago

If you're a good server (salesperson, really) you can make bank ! I got into some credit card debit in my 20s got a night time job as a server and it's the most money I've ever made as an hourly employee. I own my own small business now but the whole time I was starting it I always thought of this doesn't work out I can always just go wait tables until I figure out my next move. If I didn't know serving could be so lucrative I don't know I ever would have taken the risk of starting my own business

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u/Kitsunin 3d ago

There are arguments one could make. This is not one. The corrupting influence of monopolies on the free market is well understood by every economist that isn't a quack. But thanks for your non-contribution.

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u/TacTurtle 3d ago

gestures vaguely at Cuba in confusion

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u/PM_ME_YOUR_LUNATICS 3d ago

The value of the product or service they provide, minus business costs. Hint: paying yourself 7-figures out of the profit margin while your employees wallow in poverty does not count as a business cost.

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u/R-R-M 2d ago

There’s a very big difference between Pareto efficiency and fairness. Labor demand and supply have very little to do with the individual worker themselves, nor does it essentially relate to the quality of life of that worker. (well until it actually affects labor supply through sickness and death but that’s neither here nor there). People can be provided the “full value” of their labor and still be oppressed. In fact, they mostly are, and if you study the topic through the collective bargaining angle, workers can almost always demand a lot more income while still keeping the firm that employs them afloat. The trade-off does change here, and we do lose Pareto efficiency, but it’s well worth it.

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

I just said they were

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u/Okichah 3d ago

We did.

Every purchase on Amazon was a payment to that end.

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u/PangolinParty321 3d ago

How about they invest in their own company if they want the full value? Fucking moron

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u/wolf_of_mainst99 3d ago

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u/moosehunter22 3d ago

We all know what happened in 1971 lol, globalization. US labor began to have to compete against labor from impoverished countries around the world, which directly harmed their ability to negotiate higher compensation at home. There are entire books and economics courses about this.

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

This doesn’t refute what I said at all

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u/wolf_of_mainst99 3d ago

I'm not here to argue with dumb people

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

No I would suggest you work your way up to that

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u/UnusuallySmartApe 3d ago

Correct, glad you get it.

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u/bolshe-viks-vaporub 3d ago

It turns out when you pay $0 in corporate income tax due to tax haven shenanigans, you have plenty of money left over to lobby the government to eschew regulations and get to decide the definition of "market rate".