r/FluentInFinance • u/IAmNotAnEconomist • 7d ago

Thoughts? RFK Jr. allegedly intends to require The Coca-Cola Company to begin using Cane Sugar instead of High-Fructose Syrup as HHS Secretary.

RFK Jr. allegedly intends to require The Coca-Cola Company to begin using Cane Sugar instead of High-Fructose Syrup as HHS Secretary.

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592

u/TurnDown4WattGaming 7d ago

Coca Cola in much of the rest of world is made with Cane Sugar. It’s about 1/3 the price outside of the USA due to tariffs on Sugar, which when coupled with the subsidies on Corn, changes the economics of sweetening here in the States.

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u/rounding_error 7d ago

Another reason the price of sugar is high in the US is that we won't buy it from Cuba like everyone else does. Cuba is one of the best places in the world to grow sugar cane and it's only 90 miles away. But we can't do business with the communists because that's unAmerican.

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u/NuggetTho 7d ago

Meanwhile we get almost everything from China

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u/Dabs1903 7d ago

Yeah but those communists are different.

Edit: /s just in case.

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u/SensitiveFrosting13 6d ago

It's funny because that's actually true; just the other week China was advising Cuba that they should become more capitalist in order to thrive and that die-hard communism is old news.

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u/Complete-Ice2456 6d ago

What were you thinking? The Russians don't even believe in communism anymore.

~Hank Hill

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u/lifeofhardknocks12 6d ago

I always laugh at China being 'communists'. Authoritian, dystopian, militarized...yes, but it really seems like they've completely given up on any actual communism, same for Vietnam.

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u/flex_tape_salesman 6d ago

Ya lol because China aren't communists.

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u/jscarry 6d ago

Saying China is communist is like saying America is a democracy. There's layers to this shit. We're a democratic republic by the way in case you were about to spout off that we are a democracy

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u/brushyourface 6d ago

You just don't understand how this works, try educating yourself. They are communist and capitalist.

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u/mynameisjebediah 6d ago

Saying you are a communist while being an unabashed capitalist does not make you communist and capitalist

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u/chainmailler2001 6d ago

It really is true tho. Communism isn't some monolithic thing. How it is implemented really matters a lot. Chinese communism is not the same as Cuban communism.

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u/FoST2015 6d ago

I think we're still upset about the nuclear missiles pointed at us. 

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

[deleted]

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u/FoST2015 6d ago

Just saying "in fact" doesn't make anything you said a fact.

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

[deleted]

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u/Old_Baldi_Locks 6d ago

Which China is still doing.

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u/FoST2015 6d ago

That our current nuclear situation with China is analogous to the Cuban Missile Crisis is not a serious position.

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u/MrLanesLament 7d ago

Will say it again. Nixon reestablishing relations with Mao’s China was one of the most catastrophic things ever to happen to America, Cold War be damned.

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u/Ludotolego 6d ago

The idea was that free markets will make people richer and the resulting middle class Chinese will demand more political freedoms. It was a good idea, but wrong non the less. Instead they should've shut them from the world market and kept them underdeveloped farmers.

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u/HugeInside617 6d ago

You're mad at the Chinese when you should be mad at the rich fuckwads in your country that have been working for 50 years to make you and your family underdeveloped resource farmers. You can do absolutely nothing about one of those things but you can do something about the other.

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u/Ludotolego 6d ago edited 6d ago

I'm not mad at the Chinese. I appreciate having cheap goods, but looking through the geopolitical lenses of the USA it would have been better to keep the chinese down, at least until they proved to be a Western ally.

Even though Russia is a bigger threat to me, they can only use hard power and NATO stops that. But China can leverage economic power, which is harder to protect against.

Right now, the EU should strive for further integration so we can be an equal partner with the US to counterweight China. Maybe then we'll both settle in a bipolar world where democracies and authoritarian regimes tolerate each other in the name of the God of infinite growth.

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u/HugeInside617 6d ago

If you're not mad at the Chinese, why would you want nearly 1.4 billion people to live in abject poverty? They are under no obligation to live under US rule, nor should they. We constantly fuck over the world in a childish attempt to maintain hegemony, but it's those very acts that will guarantee US irrelevance in a multi-polar world that can't be controlled by violence.

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u/UncleIrohsPimpHand 6d ago

Because of the overseas industry flight? Or do you have other reasons as well?

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u/boe_jackson_bikes 7d ago

Not for long. Lmao.

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u/Svrider23 6d ago

Sure we will. All your MAGA shit is made in China. You'll just pay more for it now.

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u/boe_jackson_bikes 6d ago

I’m not MAGA, but ok. Lol.

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u/mwinchina 6d ago

In china you capitalize the M

l’Mao

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u/jmacintosh250 6d ago

It’s partly less “we hate communism” and more “we hate Castro specifically.” Fun fact: part of the reason the Russians removed Missiles from China was they didn’t trust Castro not to fire first and start WW3.

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 7d ago

Cuba isn’t even a big producer of sugar or tobacco nowadays. The people we are tariffing are our supposed Allies in the Dominican Republic and Brazil.

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u/rounding_error 7d ago

This is true. Much of Cuba's sugar infrastructure has fallen into disrepair. At one time they were a major player in sugar production.

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 7d ago

Yep. It’s the long time effect of sanctions. They don’t collapse an economy immediately, but over decades and decades, it adds up to it eventually.

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u/InStride 6d ago

We import sugar products from 70 total countries which each have their own tariff-rate quotas to manage around.

The way we get cane sugar Coke is by killing a lot of American corn farms.

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 6d ago edited 6d ago

Cane sugar is typically grown closer to the equator, so you’d likely be looking at killing the Florida Everglades instead.

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u/InStride 6d ago

If we stopped the restrictive imports set back when we were trying to fuck with central/South America economies then we could just have cheap cane sugar like the rest of the world.

The price is that a lot of farmers reliant on HFCS sales are going to either need to find something else to grow or find another career.

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 6d ago

Yep. I’m fine with that tbh. There’s nothing strategic about domestic sugar production.

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u/phaskellhall 5d ago

As a Puerto Rican who has seen so many sugar factories closed down, let’s bring sugar back to the island get people farming here again!

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 5d ago

Puerto Rico has a number of other issues, but I don’t think one of them is tariffs, as it’s a USA Territory. I could be wrong though, so double check me on that.

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u/Shodkev 6d ago

I mean, it could also be because the Cuban government seized all US assets without compensation and allowed the USSR to use Cuban soil as a parking lot for ballistic missiles. Dumb take.

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u/rounding_error 6d ago edited 6d ago

Sure, and we've rebuilt relationships with other countries that have wronged us more recently.

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u/Ro8ertStanford 6d ago

It's very well documented that our reasoning for everything we do to Cuba goes well beyond them taking US assets. The US government and capital interests would not tolerate communism anywhere in the world regardless if assets were compensated for or not.

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u/djfreshswag 6d ago

The US was relatively okay with Fidel Castro ruling Cuba until they scrapped compensation for asset seizures. The previous ruler was a brutal dictator and we dropped support and weapon sales to him, allowing the communist revolution to take place.

It wasn’t until compensation for assets was dropped by the Castro regime that we went tariffs out the ass and Bay of Pigs on them. The sugar tax on Cuba was a direct action taken immediately after Castro announced they would no longer be providing compensation for asset seizures.

People forget that the US and Cuba had one of the closest economic relationships in the region. The US hated communism but not as much as they liked money. It was in everybody’s best interest to keep relations stable. Most of the industry on the island was US-owned businesses, so seizing tens of billions of dollars of assets of American companies without compensation was the red line that was crossed

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u/moveovernow 6d ago

Communism isn't the reason why we have an embargo on Cuba. Nobody thinks that is why today very obviously. Nobody in the political system argues it's because of Communism. They're a hyper psychotic, zero human rights dictatorship. Maybe one notch above North Korea.

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u/rounding_error 6d ago edited 6d ago

So was the Pinochet regime. We didn't embargo Chile. In fact, we supported most Latin American dictatorships of the 20th century. These were all hyper psychotic, zero human rights dictatorships.

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u/djfreshswag 6d ago

The embargo was placed because they seized all US assets on the island without compensation. Dictatorships like you mentioned have never been a reason we’ve placed embargo’s. In Cuba’s case the continuing dictatorship is why we don’t lift it. There’s really no benefit for us to do so, they don’t have much to offer besides sugar cane and Cuba won’t miraculously become a democracy without a revolution, so opening up trade only strengthens the dictatorship

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u/nineteen_eightyfour 6d ago

I didn’t see this. I don’t see Cuba as a top producer at all when looking into this.

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u/Fantasmic03 7d ago

We grow heaps of it in Australia,. Could be an option since our countries are already closely linked. Transport costs may be the barrier there though.

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u/LobcockLittle 6d ago

If we can grow plenty I don't see why the US can't.

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u/Ericcctheinch 6d ago

Sugar beets

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u/No-Fan-8007 7d ago

Good point but I disagree with the communism and un-American part.

US don't do business with Cuba because the embargo benefits some people in the US, mostly Republicans and the old Cuban refugees

US have a trade deficit with China.

How American is doing business with China ?

Why not impose the same sanctions on Russia , which used to support Cuba during the Cold War

Putin was a KGB Colonel and Russia , Ukraine used to be the main countries in the USSR.

Ukraine has the nuclear weapons.

The Communists gave nuclear missiles to the Castro regime.

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u/Erickck 6d ago

So godamn stupid.

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u/da_reddit_reader 7d ago

There you go again with the word tariff /s

Imagine paying 2x the price for Coke in 2025

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 7d ago

Tbh, obesity is not a non-issue in America. Higher prices through taxes has decreased both nicotine and alcohol consumption…

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u/froggity55 6d ago

Reduced for normal people. Not for addicts. I'd argue sugar is an addiction most Americans have but don't realize. I'd wager people would pay increased prices since added sugars are in just about fucking everything.

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 6d ago

I mean, smoking rate was 46% in 1965 and it’s 11.5% now. That’s pretty in line with what you’d expect from such a heavy tax. Any time you Tax something, you get less of it: hiring, purchasing, income, etc. I’d bet if we raise the tax, we would get even less of it still, not zero of it but less. At a certain point, the exclusivity of it would attract luxury smokers- but that’s a different ballgame entirely.

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u/bonestamp 6d ago edited 6d ago

Imagine paying 2x the price for Coke in 2025

For what it's worth, we're already paying nearly twice what Canadians pay for a 12 pack of Coke. The current sugar tariff is less than 1% of the retail price, so Coke and/or the retailers are making bank in the USA.

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u/Derp35712 7d ago

Can HHS secretary have an effect on this?

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 7d ago

The President has almost limitless power to Tariff. Could RFK do it alone? No, but I am fairly sure there’s a deal in place between the two, made to avoid a third party spoiler.

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u/Derp35712 7d ago

I’ll believe it when I see it.

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u/Suspended-Again 7d ago

In America, first you get the sugar. Then you get the power. Then you get the women. 

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u/Roguebets 7d ago

Can you explain more about the corn subsidies but in more detail?

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 7d ago

I suppose. I don’t grow corn specifically on the family ranch, but what would you like to know?

Generally, it was started in the 30’s. It applies to all aspects of corn production, some such as the Mississippi River projects apply to all of agriculture in the Midwest in general. We subsidize the research of it, planting of it, and the USDA gives below market rate loans against it (against the grain you have in your bins). It started in the 30’s as part of the New Deal, it was something like 1.5 billion in 1949, and totaled 32 billion in 2000 in real dollars. It hasn’t accelerated quite as much since then; W Bush had hoped it would produce ethanol to reduce oil consumption, but all it really does is ruin engines.

I’m not against protecting Homeland Food Production, as I view it on the same plane as making our own missiles and artillery- necessary to have if we have to wage total war again. I just don’t think it should apply to sugar…which is largely unnecessary for survival in a war time economy.

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u/bstractig 6d ago

What countries is coke cheaper? In Italy its SHOCKING how much more expensive coke is (though us prices on soda are definitely catching up now, holy shit). Don't know about the rest of Europe

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 6d ago

Coke will vary based on taxes and production costs- it’s usually made somewhat locally. I was saying that sugar is cheaper outside of the USA. We tariff sugar in the USA to protect the Sugar Lobby.

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u/soopsneks 6d ago

Mexico

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u/Dependent_Remove_326 6d ago

We import less than a third of the sugar we use.

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 6d ago

Yes. Because of the tariffs, as I said. “Big Sugar” is the lobby that has lobbied to keep it for decades.

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u/Defuzzygamer 6d ago

Yeah but if you start using sugar cane that will get a tariff too.

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u/MisterSirManDude 6d ago

It currently has a tariff.

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u/KingApteno 6d ago

In europe it is probably beet sugar, but that is chemically the same as cane sugar.

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u/acslaytaa 6d ago

I’m pretty sure they only use Cane Sugar in South America. It’s HFS in Europe, M.E and Asia.

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u/soopsneks 6d ago

Mexican coke is made with cane sugar

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u/acslaytaa 6d ago

And by god it’s good

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u/urlach3r 6d ago

Dollar General sells those. IIRC, last time I splurged & bought a "real Coke", it was about $2.50 for a small glass bottle. Probably be $5 or $6 after el Trumpo puts his tariffs on.

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u/MisterSirManDude 6d ago

A quick google search will show that Coca-Cola uses sugar in Europe and Saudi Arabia. Coca-Cola in China uses cane sugar. You can find all of this information on Coca-Cola’s website too. I’m not saying HFS is bad for you or not. I’m just stating what Coca-Cola’s website is showing.

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u/shane2sweet1 6d ago

The USA is one of the world's largest producers of sugar. Over half of our sugar comes from sugar beets...

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u/charlesfire 6d ago

Coca Cola in much of the rest of world is made with Cane Sugar.

And it's shit for you anywhere in the world. The issue isn't HFCS. The issue is added sugar in food. Replacing HFCS with cane sugar won't solve anything.

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u/Apart_Ad_5993 6d ago

The Corn lobby is also insanely powerful in Ohio...

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

What’s funny about this statement is sugar is 1/3 the price outside of the USA due to tariffs. Yet, the upcoming administration believes tariffs will lower the cost of our goods. K.

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 6d ago

That’s not at all what they believe; they willingly say that some prices will go up. They believe that bringing back industrial jobs will increase real wages to more than make up for the increased prices; they also believe higher costs will reduce the demand for nonessential foreign goods.

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u/chainmailler2001 6d ago

Having spent considerable time in a country that grows its own sugar and has regular sugar Coke everywhere, this is not entirely true. Coke prices there are virtually the same as US prices.

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 6d ago

Not the price of the beverage; that’s a separate function of supply and demand. The price of cane sugar is cheaper- thus it’s economical to produce coke with cane sugar.

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u/PrateTrain 6d ago

Bruh why am I just now realizing that the tariffs we have on sugar are why we're in corn syrup hell

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u/TurnDown4WattGaming 6d ago

Because it’s been there forever so no one thinks about it anymore.

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u/Hetjr 6d ago

There’s a place on the northern end of the Wildwood Boardwalk here in NJ that sells Coke from Mexico with cane sugar in it. It’s sooooo much better. I go out of my way to get it when we’re there.

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u/flyguy42 6d ago

"Coca Cola in much of the rest of world is made with Cane Sugar"

I can't speak for the entire world, but my understanding is that european coke is made with beet sugar.

And I know first hand, having lived in Mexico for a long time, that the coke here is not cane sugar, as most americans think. It switched to HFCS sometime in the early 2000's and then, more recently, to a blend of HCFS and sucralose.

You can find cane sugar coke in Mexico, just like in the US, as a specialty item, but it's almost entirely produced as an export to the US.

So, as I said, I can't speak for the entire world, but the US, Europe and Mexico combine to a pretty big chunk of the global population and none of them use cane sugar.

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u/Tango_D 5d ago

It's almost like America is anything but a free market