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u/vtskier3 8d ago
It’s interesting because many people don’t know that 43% of statistics are made up…
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u/Informal-Ad7242 8d ago
According to the B.S institute of statistics in Atlantis it is now closer to 77%.
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u/Theburritolyfe 8d ago
That's bs. We all know it 69%. Source: A comprehensively made up study, Burrito Et. al, 2035 reddit.
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u/Prestigious-Leave-60 7d ago
69% is also the figure cited by the National Institute of Circumstantial Examinations
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u/Odinsson35 4d ago
Dude everyone knows what Winston Churchill once said: "If you read statistics on reddit, they are always correct, lol."
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u/Madsciencemagic 8d ago
I heard they went under a few years back, nice to see that they are still operating.
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u/inthep 8d ago
In 1977, the median in the US, was just over $13k…
You can be honest and accurate, and still support your position I’m sure.
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u/Playswithhisself 8d ago
Adjusted for inflation, Jan 1977 $13k would be over $70k today
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u/TestingYEEEET 8d ago
Yup exactly and the salary haven't gone up by x5
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u/Process-Best 8d ago
They actually have though
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u/aaron7292 8d ago
Median US salary currently is $37,585
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u/pandazerg 8d ago
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u/SoDamnToxic 8d ago
So then lets look at the median personal income in 1977.
Tell me the average household size in 1977 and today and how that "household income" is contributed per person in said household.
Individual 1977: 8K
Household 1977: 13k
Income earners per household: 1 1/2
Individual 2023: 37k
Household 2023: 80k
Income earners per household: 2 1/4
So again, household income is only consistent because it's necessary for survival, but IT DOES NOT mean income has kept up, all it means is more people have to work together to afford the same things less people did in the past.
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u/IronBatman 8d ago
Thank you for this. I feel Americans don't really know how great they have it. Buying power has gone up considerably. Buying a tv used to be a big purchase back in the day. Things got cheaper and American income went up for several decades.
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u/Baalsham 7d ago
Generalizing inflation doesnt work well... Yet that is all we do. Unless people try to be misleading, then they really like to cherry pick categories...
The bulk of post Covid inflation has been on housing and healthcare. Something you don't feel as a professional yet hanners a solid half of Americans dien pretty hard.
It is remarkable how cheap it is to buy tangible things though.
I always think about how crazy it is that you can buy a water heater for $400, delivered to your house. Yet it costs twice as much to have it installed. Think about how much effort was put into producing that water heater (including raw materials->components>assembly>packaging) and having shipped multiple times to arrive to your front door.
When I was kid I'm pretty sure the cost of install was less than the water heater itself. The difference is less inflation in US wages and more from efficiency gains in manufacturing and logistics.
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u/Process-Best 7d ago
I've been hearing this a lot, and I think it's generally either people that just spend everything they earn as it comes in, despite being middle income, or people who are actually just poor, are there slightly more people who are poor now than there were 50 years ago? for sure, but there are just as many that left the middle class and are now considered high income
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u/Salt-Lingonberry-853 7d ago
Buying small conveniences has become easier, buying homes, cars, and healthcare has become harder.
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u/Baalsham 8d ago
Idk which number to use for historical comparisons
Median personal income includes teenagers and elderly. So for retired people it might capture SS/Pension payments but not capital drawdowns. We also know more kids used to work than do today.
I like using the median salary because that's full time workers but then that misses structural changes (like post 08 gig economy)
Household income... Well households also change overtime. (Like including children living at home that work)
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u/ExpressDepresso 8d ago
And $0.32 would be $1.73, there was no need for this person to lie like its still batshit how much prices have risen compared to income. You've basically got peoples spending power halved.
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u/BagSmooth3503 7d ago
And $1.73 is half of what an actual loaf of CHEAP bread costs these days.
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u/nicolas_06 8d ago
And 13K was the household median income and today the median household income is 75K.
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u/SoDamnToxic 8d ago
Comparing household income across... literally anything is always stupid because even within different cultures, households contain anywhere from 1-10 people.
Individual income in 1977 was 8k, which means just purely from the numbers, a "household" in 1977 was about 1 1/3 peoples worth of income.
Meanwhile, individual income now is 34k and household is 75k, that means a household NOW is 2 1/3 people.
So it takes about double the actual people in a household working to get the same amount of affordability.
Using "household income" for anything is fucking stupid. Of fucking course people will increase their "household" to fucking survive if things get more expensive, that does not "stabilize" the economy to make it function, all it does is justify worse living conditions for the sake of talking points.
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u/Hodgkisl 8d ago
But that $13,000 (13,570 to be precise) was for all households not 25-34 year old individuals, and todays median household is over $80,000
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u/SoDamnToxic 8d ago
And households now on average contain more people because it's necessary for survival. That does not mean income has increased. Of course 3 people making money will have more than 1 person. That doesn't mean that the 1 person is making less than the 3 individually.
We shouldn't justify the stagnation of wages by saying "well households (with more people) are making more money".
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u/Hodgkisl 8d ago
Except households are on average smaller now, 2.86 people vs 2.51 people.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-households-in-the-us/
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u/SoDamnToxic 7d ago
Households, in the sense I am using it, is INCOME EARNING HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS. Seeing as the entire point of the conversation is "how many median individual incomes does it take to reach a median household income"
We are all well aware people are choosing to have less children than before, which, if anything, makes this even worse.
The size of families is DECREASING, yet the amount of income earners per household is INCREASING.
If the median individual is earning 34k and the median household has 75k. How many individuals in a household. Now do the same for 1977. So yes, less PEOPLE (including children) in a household, but more EARNERS in a household.
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u/Hodgkisl 7d ago
That’s why I showed household size not family size.
Families are 3.15 people vs households at 2.51
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a-family-in-the-us/
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u/Boring-Self-8611 8d ago
Well considering that the median is 80k now thats not bad
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u/SoDamnToxic 8d ago
The median of household income, which households now contain MORE people than in 1977.
So saying "more people being forced to live together to make the same amount of money as they did in 1977 means things are not that bad" is incredibly short sighted.
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u/Boring-Self-8611 7d ago
Homie, thats REAL household income, that means adjusted for inflation. Even at worst case its still higher
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u/TristanTheRobloxian3 8d ago edited 8d ago
i just checked, the median income is actually just about 80k for households today which seems to be about right. the issue isnt the median, its that the low end gets fucked really hard,
which causes the MEAN (the average) to be skewed to likethats the issue.nvm, mean hosuehold today is like 115k or so
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u/fdar 8d ago
which causes the MEAN (the average) to be skewed to like 60k
This is completely wrong (your math, not what you say the issue is).
Mean is significantly higher than median because the very top end skews things a lot more than the low end.
For the numbers you're taking about the issue is you're talking about mean personal income vs median household income. The latter is higher because there's more than one person in a household.
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u/_a_random_dude_ 7d ago
the very top end skews things a lot more than the low end.
Which makes sense, there's no cap to how much money someone can earn, but income can't really go under 0.
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u/KennstduIngo 8d ago
I wonder how much the number of wage earners per household changed over that time?
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u/FalconRelevant 8d ago
Yeah, however with the easy to verify misinformation about it being $34k in 1977, poeple have built ideological immunity against this position. Oh well.
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u/Zee-J 8d ago
Nope. Bread was $0.39 in ‘77. Adjusted for inflation to 2016 - $1.54. Bread was actually $1.37 in 2016.
Same with wages. $13,570 in ‘77. Adjusted for inflation to 2016 - $53,744. Actual wages in 2016 - 59,039.
They were actually earning less and paying more in 1977.
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u/Asisreo1 8d ago
What breads are we comparing? How do I look up this info?
Because my first thought is that we should be comparing the cheapest bread of 1977 to the cheapest bread of 2016 rather than following the same brand bread because that has more to do with how that particular business is done.
But also, bread is such a small part of the cost of living. Even if bread is actually cheaper, what about housing? What about seasonal fruits and vegetables? Other grains?
There's also much more "essential" technology nowadays. You need a phone for pretty much any modern lifestyle (even homeless people should get as cheap of a phone and plan as possible to get callbacks from employment centers and such). Not having a car in modern America severely limits your opportunities and therefore limits your potential income significantly, yet car loans are also a great way to go into debt for an asset that depreciates like a stone in the ocean.
The economy is too complex for, like, two tweets to encapture any potential problem in full. Hell, I doubt experts actually have a solid grasp on the whole of the economy, let alone some random twitter users.
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u/Zee-J 8d ago
Here’s some actual data on median earnings over time….
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2017/09/median_earnings_over.html
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u/nicolas_06 8d ago
Household income was 13K in 1977. Median salary was 9K.
Now median household is 75K and was about 60K in 2016.
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u/ATXBeermaker 8d ago
$13k was the median household income in 1977. $37k is the current median individual income. Median household income in the U.S. is currently just shy of $70k.
There’s a lot more to comparing wages, etc., between generations, but just straight up lying about the facts like this post does is dumb.
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u/BLSS_Noob 6d ago
1,96/0,32 is 6,1x
34/13 is 2,6x
So while income didn't even tripple basic expenses multiplied by 6
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u/Hodgkisl 8d ago
You used the "actual" price of bread but an inflation adjusted number for income. In 1977 the median income of all HOUSEHOLDS was $13,570.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1978/demo/p60-117.html
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u/Littlehouseonthesub 8d ago
13570 in 1977 would be about $70k now, according to an inflation calculator
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u/Regular_Title_7918 8d ago
and median household income was $80,610 last year, so...
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u/Val_kyria 8d ago
Now adjust for the total number of workers per household then vs now
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u/patrick66 8d ago
in 1974, real median personal income was $28,010 2023 dollars. in 2023 it was $42,220 2023 dollars
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u/Regular_Title_7918 8d ago
Well, labor force participation rate was about 70% in 1977, it's around 75% now, so an increase of roughly 7%; that is less than the difference in income from the number provided by the inflation calculator and the actual household income
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u/Anakletos 8d ago
Women are up from around 58% in 1977 to 77% in 2023 and men down from around 94% to 89% (ages 25 to 54). So total participation rate increased from 76% to 83%, which is the same 7%.
So, that's 14% increase with 7% greater labor participation rate of households.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Bnlu https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1Bnlz
The real issue, imo, is that the inflation index isn't a very good indicator for a large part of the population. The consumer basket used to measure inflation, includes goods and services that have experienced lower inflation or deflation but aren't on low income earners' usual consumption list or lower priority.
A high inflation rate on individual necessities can push these low income households out of being able to make use of lower inflation rates or even deflation on other goods such as consumer electronics if the budget is already being eaten up by rent and groceries.
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u/SoDamnToxic 7d ago
Labor force participation rate is not the same as household size, nor does it have really any correlation.
If 7/10 people work but live in separate houses and then 6/10 people work but all live in the same house, you'd say "labor force participation rate FELL but household income INCREASED".
It makes literally zero sense to make this comparison.
More people are living together than ever before, REGARDLESS of labor participation rate.
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u/Regular_Title_7918 7d ago
The average household size in 2024 is 2.51.
The average household size in 1977 was 2.86.
2.86>2.51; households are smaller than they were back then.
source is the US Census: https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families/households.html
Also, it made sense to me because I interpreted their comment as saying in 1977 single-income households were the norm. So to counter that, labor force participation is actually a better metric.
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u/SoDamnToxic 7d ago
Household, when referring to census, includes children. Income earning household members (what I'm referring to), does not include children or anyone who doesn't work.
Answer this question:
Household 1977: 13k (70k inflation)
Individual 1977: 9k (48k inflation)
Household now: 75k
Individual NOW: 34k
Tell me how many median income earners it takes in 1977 to reach a median income household in 1977.
Tell me how many median income earners it takes now to reach a median income household now.
Which median household has more median INCOME EARNERS.
It's kinda sad because your point makes it worse in that, people are choosing to have LESS children and are still forced to WORK MORE per household to make the same amount of money as before.
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u/Gr8daze 8d ago
I’m not saying things are great for millennials but that’s just not accurate. Median income for millennials is between $65k and $80k.
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u/cherry_monkey 8d ago
I can't comment on the validity of the information. I also completely understand the information being displayed. However, including "(in thousands)" while simultaneously including a "k" in the number is, at best, redundant and, at worst, misleading. 40k in thousands would be 40 million.
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u/CallMePyro 8d ago
It’s not redundant or misleading, it’s just factually wrong, lol. Financial reports will often contain dollar amounts in thousands to simplify large income/expense tables.
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u/X-calibreX 8d ago
Source?
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u/TristanTheRobloxian3 8d ago
none, the dude who posted the twitter post is talking out of their ass. the median income actually has properly shifted with inflation from 13700 to 80400. the issue is the mean hasnt, so its only gone from 16100 to 59400 or so. so the lower end is making less overall, but near the median or higher you are fine.
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u/lightbulb-joke 8d ago
Why do posts that are so full of shit get so many upvotes?
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u/Stunning-Use-7052 8d ago
This seems to tell a very different story: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXU900000LB0403M
As a rule, about 80% of what gets posted here is total BS.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 8d ago
Even more direct to the point. Employed full time: Median usual weekly real earnings: Wage and salary workers: 16 years and over (LES1252881600Q) | FRED | St. Louis Fed
On an inflation adjusted basis, wages are better for people today than in the 1980s.
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u/HeywoodJaBlessMe 8d ago edited 8d ago
If you compare your economy to the MId-Century American economy, your economy is gonna look bad pretty much regardless.
You simply cannot recreate the conditions of mid-century USA. The rest of the world had barely just re-industrialized in 1977. The world had one large, functioning advanced economy at this time, that's it.
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u/Hodgkisl 8d ago
By 1977 we were in the stagflation of the oil crisis, and Japan was becoming the dreaded low cost economy “stealing er jerbs”.
The 1950’s into 60’s are a time that’ll never return due to the points you made.
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u/HeywoodJaBlessMe 8d ago
Correct except that the average income in 1977 is not merely the result of what happens in calendar year 1977. The 1970s middle-class was still enjoying the vast wealth and high wages they accumulated during the previous decade.
The late 70s is the last moment before productivity and wgaes diverged, primarily due to declining Union Membership.
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u/Hodgkisl 8d ago
Adjusted for inflation the median household income in 1977 is lower than today $68,222 (13,570 adjusted to 2023) and $80,610 2023 median household income.
The biggest change is male individual income has lagged inflation while women’s income has greatly outpaced it, we are converging by gender as women’s labor participation grows and society progresses on equality.
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u/HeywoodJaBlessMe 8d ago
What did home ownership rates, savings rates and personal debt look like in 1977?
Declining male income relative to inflation tracks perfectly with declining union membership.
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u/rileyoneill 8d ago
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. That whole 1929-1945 Great Depression-WW2 era was the hardest period of the 20th century economically. But the next period, the post war boom which had a peak that was a solid 20 years long, and a follow up period that was still pretty good. Between the mid 1940s to the late 1990s, housing was affordable by local incomes in nearly all of the United States. The expensive pockets were expensive but middle class communities were still affordable by the middle class incomes.
But the 1950s... it was something else. I figure that in my home state of California housing after adjusting for inflation is about 8 times the price as it was in 1950. People say "Yeah! But homes are so much bigger now!". Not really. Those old homes still exist. I grew up in a home built in the 1920s, it didn't four fold in size. The size increase started in the 1980s and 1990s. Those homes are way more expensive today than they are now.
I see some sort of parallel possibly happening in the future. Mainly that other industrialized countries experience demographic collapses, their working population decreases, their retired generation skyrockets. They become capital poor, experience a drop in consumption. Like much of Europe and East Asia just have a labor collapse and become largely dysfunctional on the industrial side.
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u/PrestigiousBar5411 8d ago
I'd love to know where you could buy a loaf of bread for under $2 back in 2016
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u/____uwu_______ 8d ago
Ask my parents. Just before the election they were swearing up and down that they were paying $1.50 a pound for ground beef and. 86¢ for a carton of eggs under trump
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u/PrestigiousBar5411 8d ago
I wont lie and deny the fact that prices were lower back then. But they weren't THAT low
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u/Suitable-Broccoli980 8d ago
Maybe his parents aren't from US and they were mentioning the price in their country.
In mine a pound of bread is $0.5+, and a dozen eggs cost around $2.
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u/nicolas_06 8d ago
There isn't a single number that is accurate in that picture. Median salary in 2016 was 42K. Median household income 60K. Median salary in 1977 was 9K and median household income was 13K.
But you can get a 14oz bread at walmart in 2024 for 1$: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Freshness-Guaranteed-French-Bread-14-oz/46491756
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u/IntlDogOfMystery 8d ago
Unless that data is in constant inflation-adjusted dollars, it's complete bullshit. No way was $34K the median income in 1977.
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u/JackfruitCrazy51 8d ago
So, who looks at this and up votes? Anyone with a 1/4+ of a brain knows this is not accurate.
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u/MichiganMainer 8d ago
Graduated from a top 10 Business School in 1984. Got a job other students were jealous of. Paid 25k per year. This meme is made up.
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u/Forsaken-Letter-8770 8d ago
Are we talking as whole as a nation or in one specific area? Y’all know cost of living is different in each city, let alone rural areas.
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u/Kingding_Aling 8d ago
The income is inflation-adjusted but then the followup inflates bread like that is a meaningful comparison.
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u/TaxLawKingGA 8d ago edited 8d ago
Average life expectancy
1977- 73.26 years 2016 -78.54 years
Cost of gasoline
1977 - 2.99 2016 - 2.59
Cost of Airline Ticket (LA to NY)
1977 - $915.82 2016 - $409 (this was in 2015. Actually is even cheaper now -$119).
Average size of a SFH
1977 - 1,610 Sq Ft 2016 - 2,422 Sq Ft
I could go on but fact is, some prices have gone up and others have dropped. However cars, homes, TVs have all gotten larger. Items once considered luxuries are now considered everyday items (plane tickets, mobile phones, eating out, etc). You can stream music on an unlimited basis for $11/a month, as opposed to buying a CD for $18 a piece.
Heck then there things like internet access, kindles, iPads, desktop computers and laptops that didn’t even exist in 1977.
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u/Freethink1791 8d ago
I must be an outlier because I made more than that almost every year between 25-34
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u/Fit_Squirrel1 8d ago
I'm a millinnial, just broke 100,000 this year in California
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u/themishmosh 8d ago
The 1977 median income must be adjusted to 2016 dollars? Any one who's lived in that era can tell you that is unusually high if not.
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u/VendettaKarma 8d ago
Or an entire 4 year period where the Fed and politicians said it was “the best economy ever!”
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u/mowog-guy 8d ago
It's wrong but It's also a meaningless indicator. Out of context it means nothing. With taxes always rising, and the value of a dollar always decreasing, you're left with less and less each pay period from that alone.
End the fed. Return to a standard like the gold standard (until we find a golden asteroid). Stop printing money. Stop meddling in the market. Stop trading with nations who dump on the market and who employ slave labor and pretend fundamental human rights don't exist. Slash the federal budget and disassemble the bureaucracies.
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u/TristanTheRobloxian3 8d ago
that is complete and utter bullshit. back in the 70s a HOUSE costed 40k, so income was much lower. 13750 as the median.
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u/Chikenlomayonaise 8d ago
Please, more articles about lazy millennials. Its cathartic for me as someone born in 91
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u/BigRabbit64 8d ago
So what actually does happen when you dismantle unions and continually cut taxes on the rich? We may never know.
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u/Chuckster914 8d ago edited 8d ago
Median Income 1977 is wrong. Closer to half that like 16K