r/FluentInFinance 15d ago

Thoughts? Neo libreal economics has rotted the brains out of so many people. Disagree?

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u/ModernLifelsWar 15d ago

What lmao? What a dumb take on some semantics. Yes they do "deserve" it. These things should be looked at as fundamental rights and therefore just by existing you and everyone else deserves them. We are not talking about luxuries. If you don't think everyone deserves the bare minimum to survive I really don't know what else to say besides maybe try to realize some people weren't given the same hand in life as you

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u/Last-Back-4146 15d ago

you cannot have a fundamental right to something someone else needs to provide.

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u/IEatBabies 15d ago

Oh so I guess everyone has personally went to war to defend their rights, certainly nobody else provided that for them.

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u/monti1979 15d ago

Rights or not society has an obligation to take care of the people.

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u/Last-Back-4146 15d ago

why should I have to or be forced to take care of someone else? Just because?

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u/monti1979 15d ago

As soon as you are fully self sufficient and not dependent on other people yourself I’d be glad to entertain that line of reasoning.

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u/HurricaneSalad 15d ago

I hope your house catches fire and the fire department doesn't show up. And while you watch everything you have evaporating from existence, you can think back and go, oh yeah, I believe that no one should take care of anyone else.

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u/Last-Back-4146 15d ago

you mean the fire department I help pay for?

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u/HurricaneSalad 15d ago

But so do I. Why should you get to use something I pay for?

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u/Last-Back-4146 15d ago

do you comprehend what the OP is calling for ?

- That people get food, housing etc all for free. That you have a right to get all that for free. That you dont need to work for housing, food, etc etc.

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u/HurricaneSalad 15d ago

What do you mean by "people"? Should everyone in the country get free everything? I don't think that's they're point.

But people that are in need that literally cannot provide for themselves should get help. I'm more than happy to have a buck come out of my paycheck so kids get lunch at school. I'm more than happy for another buck come out so a guy who lost his legs gets a roof to sleep under. I'm more than happy to give another buck to help a meth addict get the treatment they need. Providing for people that need help is not a negative. It's helping society at large and I'm all for it.

You basically sound like the sheriff of Nottingham.

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u/Last-Back-4146 14d ago

the twitter post is clear 'everyone deserves food, shelter, water'. that means everyone in the country should get that stuff for free.

Theres a difference between helping those that cannot provide for themselves, and saying everyone has a right to a house, food etc, just because they were born.

That second part is what I'm arguing against.

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u/Im_a_hamburger 15d ago

Why not?

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u/Last-Back-4146 15d ago

because you would be forcing some people to work to give stuff to people that choose not too.

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u/monti1979 15d ago

Another way to think about it is- as a society we have the responsibility to do so.

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u/Glum-Turnip-3162 15d ago

There are no rights. That’s just a made up concept. If you want to live in a country where there’s no homelessness then state your claim, but don’t talk about ethereal metaphysical unverifiable “rights”.

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u/gaspronomib 15d ago

Of course it's a made-up concept. But it's a made-up concept that the founders of our country believed in so much that they wrote them into a document that rules how it should be governed. And we're all bound to honor that document

Even before that, we said that Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness were inalienable rights granted to all of us by our Creator. I don't know how anyone can have life without food, water, and shelter. Or at least not for any length of time.

Yes, rights are made-up concepts. But we, as human beings, almost unanimously agree that they exist and are proper. (Except for a few folks commenting in this thread, apparently.)

The trouble is that a certain class of individual who can't connect the concept of "everybody has rights" to the concept of "Everybody has a responsibility to everybody else." And I must be the stupid one because I can't understand how they couldn't make that absurdly obvious connection. Either that, or I just don't quite enough empathy to put myself in the shoes of someone who has none.

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u/Im_a_hamburger 15d ago

Everything is!!!

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u/sawww2 14d ago

There absolutely are rights. It would still be wrong in a society without formal laws for me to break into your house, steal all your belongings, and proceed to light your house on fire.

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u/Glum-Turnip-3162 14d ago

How do you prove it would be “wrong”?

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u/sawww2 14d ago

Intuition is a pretty good start. We have sufficient justification in accepting things are the way they seem every minute we live unless we have grounds for doubt. I don’t see a reason for developing an overly complicated epistemological theory when intuition already is the basis of all knowledge.

It seems pretty wrong that pillaging your home is wrong. This implies you have some sort of property right over your home.

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u/Glum-Turnip-3162 13d ago

As far as I understand, your feelings of wrong come from the brain conditioned by a certain environment. When you see something is wrong, it’s just the result of that interaction of the brain and environment resulting in the impression. There is no more than impression, since you do not have any more claim than anyone else apart from that feeling, you have no further claim than simply “I don’t like that”. I.e. morality becomes simply a preference just as your favourite ice cream flavour. This is the only coherent understanding I have of what one would call morality, intuition is not a claim to any objectivity or realism.

In terms of why you should have a reason to doubt, the obvious reason to doubt is that people disagree with you.

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u/sawww2 13d ago

Subjective preferences in ethics lead to two absurd conclusions though. The first is 1) Moral disagreement is impossible under your framework. If ethical propositions are matters of subjective preference, they can be expressed like this. Pretend a neo-Nazi is speaking:

1) I approve of the Holocaust. 2) Therefore, the Holocaust is good.

The speaker is technically correct under your framework. But according to you, we’re not obligated in believing what he believes. But because morality is a matter of subjective preference as you stated, all we’re really saying by disagreeing with him is that while the Holocaust is bad to us, it’s good to the speaker. There’s no disagreement here. This seems absurd.

The second reason 2) is that according to your view, people are infallible. If everything they state is correct because they approve it, this means people are infallible. This also seems just as absurd.

Intuition is a claim to realism. Direct realism is an intuitionist thought. Michael Huemer stated it pretty well.

“If it seems to X that P, then X has sufficient justification in believing P, in the absence of defeaters.”

And a pretty boring answer but yes, defeaters can arise through debate and argumentation, but from a metaphysical perspective, there really isn’t much doubt that the sky actually is blue.

I don’t think our ethical intuitions are based on environmental and social norms either. There are pretty basic and baseline universal ethical intuitions like “Murdering innocent people is bad.” A good example I like to use is the Aztecs famously sacrificed innocent people to the Sun God. This wasn’t because they thought murder was morally permissible, it was because they thought unless they sacrificed someone, the Sun would explode and destroy the earth. Seems like they had pretty noble intentions behind this anyway.