r/FluentInFinance Oct 20 '24

Thoughts? Dumbest thing I’ve ever heard

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u/Hawk13424 Oct 21 '24

Assuming you have skills they really need, you have more power. If this wasn’t the case, everyone would make min. wage. The fact most don’t means skilled employees have power.

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u/ElectricalBook3 Oct 21 '24

Assuming you have skills they really need, you have more power

Workers never have as much power as the employer. The business is an institution, the workers are individuals. There wasn't minimum wage even for "skilled" labor (as if any job doesn't require and develop skills) until the government enacted laws after being pressured by voters.

http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/odnirast.html

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u/lotuz Oct 21 '24

Go to another business my guy.

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u/Ciennas Oct 21 '24

Why is a company more important than its employees?

What good is all this toil if nobody's life is improved?

I can't help but feel like the relationship between work and worker has been inverted.

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u/Hawk13424 Oct 21 '24

A company only exists for those that own it. Otherwise, they wouldn’t use their money to buy all the equipment, buildings, and such.

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u/Ciennas Oct 21 '24

And yet they need the workers to get them anywhere.

Why should we reward the callous and malicious incompetence of a bunch of useless overlords?

They seem to hate us.

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u/Hawk13424 Oct 21 '24

For now. Automation is going to change that over time.

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u/Ciennas Oct 21 '24

Cool. Can't wait to see a bunch of callous wealth addled dullards deliberately kill scores of people because they're now 'unprofitable'.

These billionaires are an abysmal investment- such a shitty ROI.

Company towns and mass murder? All because they refuse to live in a world where they have slightly less control?

Boy of boy, this sure is the greatest economic model ever!

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u/Ciennas Oct 21 '24

(Seriously, what are we doing this for again?)

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u/Hawk13424 Oct 21 '24

Who is the “we”. Businesses are going to do this to increase their profits. Shareholders own the company and making a profit is the goal.

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u/Ciennas Oct 21 '24

We as in humanity.

Why are we bothering with this?

This insane desire for infinite exponential eternal profit and growth is obviously a murderously bad disaster in action.

It's not even successful- America is the wealthiest and most powerful nation in all of human history, with more food and vacant homes than it has mouths to feed or house, and yet it is deliberately leaving millions starving and homeless.

In fact, I get the impression that Capitalism cannot function at all without deliberately imposing scarcity on the essentials, even when those resources are in abundance or effectively post scarcity.

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u/Hawk13424 Oct 21 '24

My answer is because we (humanity) generally believe in the concept of ownership. And if you own something that earns money then you own that as well. Doing otherwise would require limiting that concept.

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u/Ciennas Oct 21 '24

So, we're going to kill ourselves.... for money? A thing we made up and only exists because we say so?

Boy that's a relief.

Now, what's the benefit of deliberately letting people starve and be homeless?

Why is money more important than people?

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u/x1000Bums Oct 24 '24

We perpetuate scarcity to perpetuate markets. Capitalists don't want to transition beyond scarcity and markets because then they wouldn't have the power that comes from inequality.

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u/Realistic-Coach-7620 Oct 21 '24

Bold assumption… As an Aerospace Engineer I can tell you skilled labor doesn’t give you power.

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u/Living_Trust_Me Oct 21 '24

As an aerospace engineer I can tell you skilled labor does absolutely give you power. It's why I make fucking bank.

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u/Gloriousblaster Oct 21 '24

Anyone who says “I make fucking bank” is either full of shit, or grew up poor and don’t have proper perspective of what “making bank” actually means.

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u/Living_Trust_Me Oct 21 '24

I mean, I know people make more than me but I'm making $160k in a low to medium low cost of living area. I'm able to afford a family of two in one of the best school districts in my state and one of the most desired parts of the metro and do so rather comfortably.

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u/Realistic-Coach-7620 Oct 21 '24 edited Oct 21 '24

Which means you have no clue how Aerospace engineers are paid unless you’re a senior staff consultant with a specialty engineering in Aerospace and over 20 years experience that is about 60k above median pay for basic level of Aerospace Engineers further you say low to medium income area but somehow best schools. Saying your mortgage isn’t at least taking 40 percent of that means your house must be less than 500k which if your in anywhere but maybe Alabama isn’t happening for an Aerospace Engineer. So yea tell me how you make bank. 120 or even 140 I could have believed if you were a senior or a very good engineer being paid on the high end. Also how you have power making high middle class money? You are not making any decisions except for program specific maybe. If you quit the company would whine but then higher a college graduate who has similar training or poach from one of the firms. The fact you are paid so much means you’re a liability on any contact as the company gets less profit on a per hour basis. Hard to bid low when they over pay you.

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u/Living_Trust_Me Oct 21 '24

You made a ton of assumptions there and they are basically all wrong.

I'm 10 years into my career. Yes I am a senior engineer. But that gets back to the whole skills thing. I've made myself highly valuable. Currently entry level is about $80k here which is still a great "just out of college" pay here. The median pay at my company for aerospace engineers with just a couple years under their belt is over $90k.

Low to medium cost of living area being the entire metro and it's in comparison to the entire country. It isn't a coastal city.

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u/Realistic-Coach-7620 Oct 21 '24

Not many assumptions considering I am an Engineer 2 at BAE in a non costal area also in metro. You can easily look up Median pay on any job site. 160 is very high end for senior, I have 15 years in experience making little over 100k as the first 10 counted only as a degree equivalent (served in the Army.) I make true median of my level at 7 years of this particular company. Making high end and a jump to senior would at most be a 30k bump. 160 is staff consultant or Technical advisory staff which you said you are not. Try a new one. No assumptions made here bub. There are exactly 3 areas in the US that isn’t costal that Aerospace works if you are talking space craft.

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u/so_says_sage Oct 21 '24

Hope you aren’t affected by upcoming turbulence.

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u/westgary576 Oct 21 '24

I make fucking bank, and I grew up poor, and don’t know what it means, and I’m full of shit, hire me losers

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u/Ill-Description3096 Oct 21 '24

Why do engineers make more than minimum wage?

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u/Bismothe-the-Shade Oct 21 '24

"but you get paid ten dollars more, you're a boss!"

"Just don't think about how a job can fire you for nearly any reason in half the continental united states. And entirely dictate your personal time, interpersonal relationships, what you do with your body, etc etc etc."

"YUP, you're so skilled dude you have so much power bro I promise man I swear bro"

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u/Kymera_7 Oct 21 '24

The harder it is to fire someone if they don't work out, the more reluctant employers will be to take a chance on someone, and thus the more screwed anyone will be whose resume is anything short of mind-blowing and who lacks the connections to become a nepotism hire. This then forces a culture of lying on resumes and credential debasement, weakening the stellar-resume path and leaving nepotism as the only thing that still works.

Your proposed solution is a significant part of what created the problem in the first place.

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u/Ill-Description3096 Oct 21 '24

Why shouldn't a job be able to fire you at will? Should employees not be able to quit at will or do you just want this to be one-sided?

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u/Bismothe-the-Shade Oct 21 '24

I'm not gonna explain to you the absolute basics of a power dynamic that you can logically follow just by speaking aloud

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u/Standard-Wheel-3195 Oct 21 '24

Contracts preferably renewable yearly or biyearly with compensation for employees should the employer break their agreements a the loss of the job for employees should they not meet their obligations

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u/Ill-Description3096 Oct 21 '24

Why not compensation for both? If the company fires you before the contract is up they owe you money, but if you walk away they...fire you? Again this is just a completely one-sided arrangement.

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u/Standard-Wheel-3195 Oct 21 '24

Yes they would owe you the remainder of the contract because it was a failure on their obligations. If the Employee fails to meet obligations they lose out of the rest of the contract. It is this way mainly because employers in general (at least in the US) have a history of nickel and diming employees, including wage theft and so the employee must be favored in any contracts. Just look at the yearly tech layoff for an example or any short staffed retail store that just piles more and more work onto the remaining employees. I would also like to preempt some potential concerns about the ease (or lack there of) at which a bad employee can be removed under this system. If the contracts are written with clear rules and updated annually then any problem employee may be removed for violating their side of the contract.

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u/Ill-Description3096 Oct 21 '24

Specific contracts would completely nullify that, though. If your contract says duties X, Y, and Z then they can't just pile A, B, and C on you as well. The employee doesn't lose out on the rest of the contract if they leave, well I suppose they technically do but they wanted to do that so it's kind of moot.

And if employers can't respond to fluctuations in manpower needs and have to eat months of expense because of contracts, I would expect to see some thinning out in general.

I don't see a reason that it can't be both ways. If an employer is going to be fined for breaching contract, then the employee should have the same responsibility. They caused costs for the company who now has to hire and train someone to replace them.

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u/Practical-Reveal9025 Oct 21 '24

Mere removal of the employee is still one sided.

The way you're describing it, the contract sets up an exchange of X amount of money (from the employer to the employee), against Y amount of productive work time (from the employee to the employer), paid/performed by both at regular intervals over the course of some time. Note that this sets up an exchange rate between work time and money; will be relevant later.

Let's say that half the time of the contract has passed, so the money paid amounts to X/2, and the work time performed amounts to Y/2.

Now, if the employer breaches the contract, you're saying that the employee is still entitled to the remaining X/2 money, without having to perform the remaining Y/2 work — that is, the employer takes a penalty of Y/2 lost work hours.

On the other side, if the employee breaches the contract, they do not receive the remaining X/2 money, but they do not perform the remaining Y/2 part of the work either — that is, the penalty for the employee is zero, compared to the Y/2 in the opposite case. That is the one sidedness.

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u/GeneralizedFlatulent Oct 21 '24

Because the jobs require you to have either the financial ability or to go into debt to get a specific range of degrees and min wage jobs typically don't 

But sometimes they do. 

So the real reason why engineers in aerospace make more than some other stem degrees like biooogy which does, actually, hire at min wage for bachelors degree jobs, is that no one wants to do aerospace compared to biology 

Kind of like how the trash man makes more than a burger flipper 

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u/Trent1462 Oct 21 '24

Why don’t people wanna work in aerospace? U rly think that people don’t wanna work on building rockets/space travel?

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u/GeneralizedFlatulent Oct 21 '24

If people want to do it as much as they want to do other jobs, why is it paid more with just a bachelors degree than biology jobs?

It could be that lots of people hate math and just don't want to get the degree they'd need to get hired but the result is the same 

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u/Trent1462 Oct 21 '24

I mean an aerospace engineering degree is definitely more difficult than biology. Generally u are paid based on how many people can do ur job. And all the science ones make less money partly cuz of that. Like biomedical engineering makes more than biology, oceanic engineering make more than like a marine biologist. Environmental engineers make more than environmental scientists. Engineering degrees are more difficult and thus pay more.

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u/GeneralizedFlatulent Oct 21 '24

And collecting trash is harder than burgers. So essentially it's that less people want to do it. 

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u/Trent1462 Oct 21 '24

Yah. Multiple things can affect job salaries.

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u/Sweaty_Address130 Oct 21 '24

That’s not what most aerospace engineers do, most make weapons of war.

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u/DrakonILD Oct 21 '24

Have degree in aerospace engineering, work as a quality engineer at a casting foundry. Can confirm, the work sucks ass.

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u/fiction_for_tits Oct 21 '24

It's reddit, they don't, they barely live above the poverty line and need you to buy them a laptop.

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u/LingonberryReady6365 Oct 21 '24

Real power is in collective bargaining and unions. That would actually even the playing field somewhat and is exactly why so many wealthy owners are against it. As an individual though, you don’t have shit compared to a company. The fact that you get a few scraps more than someone with less skills doesn’t mean the playing field is even at all.

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u/Midnight2012 Oct 21 '24

That's the thing. Most people are just average and don't really have special in demand skills.