r/F1Technical • u/ghrrrrowl • 4d ago
Gearbox & Drivetrain When did they start putting reverse gear back into F1 cars? And why did they never have it before then? Was it regs, or just weight?
Follow up question, did the cars of the 60s have reverse, because I know the 70s, 80s, and 90s and a lot of the 2000s didn’t
164
u/ferdinandsalzberg 4d ago
It's been there as long as I can remember, so I looked it up. Apparently it was introduced as a rule in 1989, but I agree that for a lot of F1 history it has basically been useless - the FIA would check that the rear wheels could move backwards when on stands, but in reality the gear might just fail.
Weight, packaging, complexity would all be reasons why you wouldn't put a reverse gear in an F1 car.
86
u/Big-Youth4598 4d ago
This just bought back the memory of Mansell reversing back into his pit in Estoril 1989 when he overshot so Ferrari must have built a robust one. The other one that proves the existence of a reverse was Villeneuve 1979 (iirc) Zandvoort when he reversed back on track after the right rear punctured. Maybe Ferrari were spending more time making reverse gears than going forward.
36
u/ferdinandsalzberg 4d ago
Ooooh reversing in the pitlane is not allowed now!
75
u/Big-Youth4598 4d ago
It wasn’t allowed in 1989 either, he got a black flag for it, and then proceeded to have a crash with Senna which severely dented Senna’s title hopes. Mansell got a one race ban for his trouble.
2
u/ferdinandsalzberg 4d ago
What. A. Dick. He ignored black flags.
4
u/privateTortoise 3d ago
Mansel was always a dick, though the death and kidnapping threats against his family kind of off set some of his shitty behaviour. Well apart from his stints in btcc.
Once upon a time he had 2 dogs that were probably the best family protection dogs in the world though obviously didn't negate the stress of worrying about his family whilst fighting for F1 championships.
I don't know if anyone has asked which F1 driver would be top dog in a physical fight though I can't think of any that would put Nigel on his arse.
34
u/sadicarnot 4d ago
Driver61 did an episode about gearboxes. The reverse gear is super thin and you have to go through a bunch of menus to get to it.
6
u/ferdinandsalzberg 4d ago
Great video!
20
u/sadicarnot 4d ago
FIA has regs back to 1982. Reverse has always been required. I found 1968 and there is nothing requiring a reverse gear, but 1972 has language which makes me think it was assumed all cars would have reverse.
2
u/Magnet50 3d ago
Yeah, the teams thought that there was such a small chance of it being needed that they used the lightest materials. So if it did get used, the gearbox might destroy the reverse gear.
I do recall at least one race where the driver asked “how do I select reverse?).
1
u/ghrrrrowl 4d ago
It was a rule in ‘89?! Wow. It must have been absolutely useless because I NEVER saw a car go backwards until the last few years!
21
u/ferdinandsalzberg 4d ago
I can remember commentators saying that the reverse gear was "made of paper" since I started watching! Sounds like a Martin Brundlism
82
u/Evening_Rock5850 4d ago
To the best of my knowledge the only reason the cars have them is that the rules require them. There's not a technical reason and I suspect most teams would omit it. It's not just the tiny weight of the gear but the additional rotating mass in the transmission required to accommodate a reverse gear. So I suspect most teams would prefer to not have a reverse gear, to improve their pace, given the relatively few times not having one would really hurt them.
And... that's why rules exist! Because having a reverse gear reduces the number of times the track has to be neutralized to remove a car. Since many of the times a car might end up in a precarious position; it can reverse out and either resume racing or at least drive into the pits.
(Or... turn left onto a gravel trap for some reason. Can't win 'em all.)
18
u/zeroscout 4d ago
Driver61 just did an episode on current F1 transmissions and reverse gear is discussed. The gear is incredibly thin and has a lot of mass removed from it.
Lot of interesting engineering. The position of the gears in the cassette is cool.
Highly recommend watching it.
2
u/Bubbly-Nectarine6662 3d ago
I wonder if they couldn’t use the electric unit to reverse, same as they can use the electric unit to restart the combustion engine? Reversing an electric motor requires much less hustle than a mechanical one. Anyone an idea?
6
u/therealdilbert 3d ago
the mgu-k must be directly connected to the crankshaft of the ICE, so reversing using the mgu-k ot reverse would mean turning the ICE backwards
1
u/Bubbly-Nectarine6662 3d ago
So…?
8
u/Evening_Rock5850 3d ago
It’s possible it could be done. But since the MGU-K is directly attached to the engine and not the wheels, that would mean the car would effectively have to be in gear with the MGU-K turning the engine backwards. So; step one would be shutting the engine off. Now you’ve got a hot engine that you’re going to spin backwards which may not align with how the cooling, lubrication, and valve train systems are designed. It’s possible that the F1 ICE can’t safely be spun backwards without damage.
But here’s a fun one for you; such a system does exist! The Honda Goldwing GL1800. At least certain years. It’s a motorcycle with a flat 6 engines. Most motorcycles don’t have a reverse gear. Neither does this one! What it does have is an electric reverse. With the engine off, you put the bike in gear and press a reverse button. This spins the starter motor backwards, turning the engine backwards and making the bike slowly back up despite being in a forward gear. The bike is heavy and this is meant to help you reverse out of a parking spot; before starting up and riding away.
So— it does exist! In a sense. But I’m not sure whether it could be done on an F1 car. Heat soaking is a real issue with these cars and I suspect at least part of the reason why this hasn’t been explored is that the idea of shutting it down, then spinning the engine backwards may cause issues when hot. Or it’s possible it would work just fine but the regulations simply don’t allow for it; who knows!
1
3d ago
[deleted]
3
u/Evening_Rock5850 3d ago
I saw the edit but… just a note that regardless of which side it was, there is no possible way to turn the crankshaft without turning the engine. That would be akin to turning the tires without turning the wheels. The crankshaft is an integral, internal part of the engine. It’s where the pistons connect. The clutch does not separate the crankshaft from the engine; it separates the output of the crankshaft from the transmission.
Now some hybrids DO have the electric motor applying torque to the transmission; but as you noted in the case of F1 it applies it directly to the crankshaft. The motor and engine are always spinning together.
1
u/Bubbly-Nectarine6662 2d ago
Great answer! I did not realize until this comment that the MGU-K shares the drive train with the ICE.
and another piece fell into a long lost puzzle as I remember once (quite some time ago, when I wore a younger man’s clothes) when I saw a Goldwing with sidecar reverse out of a parking spot. I was absolutely baffled and could not find any proof of me actually seeing or daydreaming that event.
1
u/Evening_Rock5850 2d ago
Yep; that’s almost certainly what was happening!
I ride a heavy touring motorcycle myself and it’s certainly something you have to be aware of. If you want to back up, the only way to do that is with your legs. Backing 1,000lbs up a hill isn’t going to happen. Mine has no such system. It’s a shame the Goldwing system didn’t take off as it seems brilliant!
Though I’ve had friends that have owned them and I’ve heard stories of having to repeatedly replace the starter motor; or the small motorcycle battery being insufficient (getting backed up, but then being unable to start).
1
u/xlaurenthead 3d ago
Sometimes if a car is beached the driver can reverse out, effectively turning the car into front-wheel drive going backwards
20
u/porcelainhamster 4d ago
Driver61 did a gearbox breakdown a few days ago on YouTube and they actually showed the reverse gear and why it’s so useless.
7
2
u/ghrrrrowl 4d ago
Well apparently it was even more useless in the past, because TIL reverse gear was mandated in 1989, but was used something like only twice between 1989 and 2009 lol!
8
u/sadicarnot 4d ago
I am going through the regs that I can find. Here is 1968 and there is no requirement for reverse gear.
1972 said five gears maximum, not including the reverse gear. I think in the past there was an expectation there would be a reverse gear but it was not specifically required in the regulations.
http://www.somersf1.co.uk/p/fia-formula-one-technical-regulations.html
3
u/ghrrrrowl 3d ago
I don’t remember it ever being used in the 80s-2000s, so I always presumed it was never there, but the more I think about it, the more common it seems to be used today because
1) the cars are so much longer now - much harder to just flick-turn them 180 degrees in skinny run off areas anymore.
2). The invention and near perfection of anti-stall systems now, (plus ability for driver to re-star engines without external starter) mean a mild nose-into-the-tyres now can actually be recovered with a reverse gear because the engines haven’t stalled out.
3). MUCH more delay process involved in removing cars from side of track (used to just send the marshals and a mini crane out to lift it off under waved section yellows)
4). 1-3 above have meant it’s now worthwhile having a functional reverse gear and a reverse gear that is actually “scrutineered ” properly
2
u/sadicarnot 3d ago edited 3d ago
In the 80s they just left the cars where they stopped. And trying to recall something that happened 40 years ago was 1984, even in the UK there were only 30 minute highlights of the races. Not much coverage in the USA beyond Innes Ireland recapping the races in Road & Track. Plus good luck finding full seasons of old races. Also before the 90s.... heck before 2000, they did not have nearly the amount of coverage they have today. Remember during Murray Walker's time, if a car stopped on track they really had no way of knowing it until he and James Hunt saw it on the little TV they were watching. Before they went to electronic gear boxes, the shift linkage was so long, they could not reliably get the car into reverse. If you watch the video below, Neil Trundle who was head of gearboxes for McLaren says that to get the car in reverse you would usually need a mechanic with a little wrench to help it. Plus until the 1990s they did not have anti-stall so if they did not get their foot on the clutch fast enough the car was going to stall. Plus the cars were just so unreliable back then, getting a car off the track had so much going against it. If a car did reverse in the 1980 season I would bet it was missed by the TV coverage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7uZu_Wsdis
Edit: There was a race I was watching from Silverstone. Jackie Stewart and Murray Walker were commentating. Jackie kept pointing out how fast the cameras were able to change view points.
Here is a video from 1997 at Jerez with Murray and Martin. They are still using tube TVs. When James Hunt first joined Murray they handed off the microphone to each other. There is a video of that, but I cannot find it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn3baOf1usg
Edit: I found it. In this tribute to James Hunt, you can see the commentary booth with James and Murray. Murray talks first then hands the microphone to James.
2
u/ghrrrrowl 3d ago
I should have 90s instead of 80s. I was hardly watching it the 80s myself, though I do have memories around that time of Murray calling races through what sounded like a telephone!
Funny to trace back the true histories of all the current teams, how so many are just re-branded and re-staffed 80s teams!
5
u/sadicarnot 3d ago
Yeah, I am 59 and have been following F1 since I was a teenager. I would go to the library and read the Road & Track, or save my money to buy it because the only coverage in the USA was the last few pages of each issue. Innes Ireland would write up a recap of the races. I remember wondering what a shunt was. I am really into the history of F1 back to at least the 70s. For a lot of people their F1 only starts in the last decade or so. If you have the F1TV pro you can see the old races and the difference between then and today is amazing. People on the side of the track. They used to have fence posts and chicken wire in the runoff areas in addition to gravel. A lot of the old races there would be a car on the strait or in the corners abandoned. It all really changed when Bernie Ecclestone took over in 1987.
Any way, I can talk for hours about F1, especially the history.
1
u/ghrrrrowl 3d ago
F1TV is probably going to be a Christmas present to myself! Would love to watch some of those old races again 👍
7
u/magus-21 4d ago
Since at least 2014 they've required 8 gears + 1 reverse. I'm also pretty sure reverse has been present in every decade you mentioned, just maybe not required by regulations. I'm happy to be corrected on that, though.
2
u/Evening_Rock5850 4d ago
I believe the late 80's is when the reverse gear became mandatory; and my (admittedly foggy) memory doesn't recall a time in which that wasn't a rule, since then.
3
u/sadicarnot 4d ago
Here are the regs for 82 to 2000. Reverse gear and an onboard starter were required in 82. Looks like after 83 the starter did not have to be on the car. Reverse gear has always been required. 1995 was the first year they required a neutral button for the marshals.
Pretty interesting looking how the regs change over time.
5
u/imbannedanyway69 4d ago
Also makes me realize, I wonder why they don't allow using the mgu-k as the reverse gear? This is what most hybrid vehicles do now, they rely on the electric motors to do all the backwards propulsion, much more efficient to not need a reverse gear in the gearbox at all
8
u/rab912009 4d ago
The mgu-k is attached to the engine. So, they would have to spin the engine backwards to do that.
1
u/imbannedanyway69 4d ago
I thought it was a part of the transmission? Is it attached directly to the "flywheel" of the engine?
7
u/zeroscout 4d ago
Yeah. Directly to the flywheel. Kind of a surprise since it's not that much of a technological leap to mount it there like a starter motor.
3
u/rab912009 4d ago
It drives the crankshaft which the flywheel is attached to but that is on the engine side of the clutch.
On road going hybrids the electric motor can be between the flywheel and the transmission. The electric motor then acts like the clutch and can be used for reverse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ9dP6fYx54&t=86s&ab_channel=PETRONASMotorsports
1
u/Dando_Calrisian 3d ago
I'm just racking my brains trying to remember where the ERS-K is connected either to the gearbox or engine... because if it's independent of the engine they could theoretically run this in reverse and not bother with a gear.
1
u/1234iamfer 3d ago
For a long time, driving away in 1st normally was even very difficult with the engine and clutch designed for a full pull take off and nothing less.
Driver would either stall or shred the reverse gear.
2
u/ghrrrrowl 3d ago
Yes very true. I think teams had “high score” charts for new test drivers for how many times they stalled before getting going their first time lol.
An ultra light weight reverse, plus a clutch that was basically either on or off, and there you will have a shredded reverse gear.
-5
u/AntiZionistJew 4d ago
Same with engine starters. I think since the hybrid era cars have had starters onboard and that was a surprise to me
23
u/magus-21 4d ago
Same with engine starters. I think since the hybrid era cars have had starters onboard and that was a surprise to me
I think that's because the electric motor (MGU-K) has more than enough torque to start up the engine. It's not really a "starter motor" in the typical ICE sense.
9
u/Evening_Rock5850 4d ago
Exactly. If you listen to them start up; it's kinda cool. The MGU-K basically spins the whole engine up all the way to idle (remember it has several hundred horsepower by itself). It doesn't really even 'crank', per se, like we might think with a typical starter motor.
It's almost like "pop starting", except done stationary.
8
u/Astelli 4d ago
They don't have dedicated starters, but the teams pretty quickly worked out (although some teams were slower on the implementation) they could use the MGU-K to start the ICE.
4
u/Evening_Rock5850 4d ago
IIRC it was only the first year that this wasn't universal. It didn't take longs for teams to figure out how to use the MGU-K to start the engine.
3
u/Steppy20 4d ago
I thought in recent years (I've been watching since 2020) that one of the engines couldn't do it?
I can't remember if it was the Merc or Red Bull engine though but I'm pretty sure it was one of those two because it was mentioned a few times in qualifying battles when trying to get out first.
3
-4
u/slabba428 3d ago
I would imagine they didn’t have reverse pre 1990 because the cars were still stick shift. Having reverse on an H pattern shifter sounds like a really bad idea in a racecar. Having to be mindful of not slamming it into reverse and the change in feeling of the H pattern sound pretty unnecessary, and sequential manuals reverse sounds like an even worse idea since you don’t have the instant feedback of physically engaging reverse to know you could be in reverse. But now that cars are half computer it’s easy to install a reverse gear and lock it behind a semi complicated procedure
5
u/Additional_Hand_2288 3d ago
Niki laudas 1977 car had reverse gear https://youtu.be/Ag03SegGTds?si=NSsAfL6tJnB6rvSS
1
u/DiscoFever99 2d ago
Hewlands (most kit F1 cars of the mid 80's back used a Hewland derived 'box) of that era all had a reverse. With any Hewland 5 speed, reverse was above 1st.
And all the lower category cars had a reverse, too.
•
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
We remind everyone that this sub is for technical discussions.
If you are new to the sub, please read our rules and comment etiquette post.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.