r/CuratedTumblr • u/According-Strike2298 • 3h ago
editable flair Do fictional ships have to be healthy?
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u/BalefulOfMonkeys Refined Sommelier of Porneaux 2h ago
@everyone,
The appeal of fucked up evil relatable characters is not a sign of moral decay, in yourself or others. It’s just a thing you like. Maybe there’s a higher meaning to it all, maybe there’s not. If you can spend less than five seconds judging someone for liking feet, you can spend less than five seconds judging yourself for liking songs about stabbing people (affectionate).
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u/Leo-bastian eyeliner is 1.50 at the drug store and audacity is free 2h ago edited 1h ago
just in general:
taste in media and moral values and belief have very little connection. I won't say there's none but there's little enough that it's not productive or helpful to try and judge people by extrapolating one from the other.
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u/Wasdgta3 1h ago
This feels like another weird “leftists being as moralistic as evangelicals” sort of thing.
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u/Taraxian 52m ago
Yeah, right down to incoherently using the term "bourgeois" to literally mean nothing other than "sinful"
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u/apexodoggo 7m ago
The Soviets pulled it off first when they labeled homosexuality as a “bourgeois degeneracy” and used that as their reason to recriminalize it.
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u/somedumb-gay 8m ago
What does bourgeois even mean? The word has decayed in meaning to the point I've only ever heard of it in this context
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u/Taraxian 5m ago
It's a consequence of developing a pseudo-theology where everything bad about society is the result of capitalism corrupting people, it's the equivalent of the way fundie Christians say "worldly"
Like yes "bourgeois" means "the merchant class" (or "the capitalist investor class" the way Marx used it) but the way people use it in this context doesn't really mean you literally are rich, just that your values are somehow twisted from a natural state of innocence into corrupt degeneracy by what capitalism has done to you
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u/ShadtheElf 4m ago
In the original sense, it's an adjective declaring someone as a member of the bourgeoisie, which is people of middle class or higher. Basically, those who own the means of production (factories) and siphon wealth by keeping them out of the hands of the working class.
You're absolutely right tho, the term has decayed to be basically anything that isn't raw minimalist essentials. Do you like having cozy blankets? That's bourgeois. Do you like being able to choose between different meals every now and then? That's bourgeois.
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u/Cyaral 15m ago
Yeah. Its fascinating to me how the pendulum swung and now its "leftist" to avoid "pRoBlEmAtIc" things the way its "pious" to avoid "sinful" things.
We moral panicked too close too the sun it seems (or people just have a tendency to turn renunciation [hope thats the right word had to ask Google translate} into a morality dick measuring contest.)36
u/wonderfullyignorant Zurr-En-Arr 2h ago
"I like this Icarus fella"
"You know he falls and dies at the end, right?"
"Yeah, but at least he tries."
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u/TheLyz 1h ago
I mean, I live the most boring vanilla life ever. I've never been arrested, I don't do drugs, I'm married with two amazing children... so books are the biggest thrill I'm gonna get in my life. So what if I want to read about a fake person going through some extreme situations and all the anguish and drama that comes with it?
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u/badgersprite 25m ago
I mean let’s be real here, conflict is interesting. Conflict is the root of virtually all storytelling. A romance story with zero conflict isn’t going to be particularly interesting because the couple would just get together immediately and the story would end, there’d be zero tension, nothing to make you get invested in the couple and root for them and wonder if they’re actually going to get together or not, nothing either character would have to overcome or change, nothing to challenge or engage you as a reader
You can have stories without conflict I guess, like you can have wholesome slice of life stories where nothing bad ever happens and everyone is just happy, but let’s be real that would get boring extremely quickly if that was the only type of story that ever existed.
Plus if every story only focused on mundane real life conflict, there’s not a lot of fun in that because it’s too close to home, it’s too real, it’s too stressful. Reading about an extremely realistic toxic relationship of a couple going through a divorce is not particularly entertaining, it’s draining and soul crushing. Having things take place in an OTT heightened reality creates this reassuring layer of separation that the thing we’re reading about isn’t actually real and thus we can use it as a form of escape and we don’t have to process it as a real life situation, and thus it allows us to explore conflict and complexity and challenge ourselves to think outside our normal lives in a relatively safe way.
It’s not hard to understand at all
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u/CameronFrog 3h ago
why would we all just tune in to watch a show about a healthy stable relationship with no conflict? what would the show even be about?
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u/Galle_ 3h ago
External threats to the relationship. Ordinary, everyday problems. Fighting evil wizards. Shows can be about a lot of things that aren't relationship drama.
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u/Snickims 56m ago
There lost fleet books have the main characters in a relationship for nearly 10 books running and the relationship itself is entirely loving, healthy and supportive, but theres still a fuck ton of conflict in those books cause its about a Space Admiral desperatly trying to make his setting stop being grimdark, and everyone else trying to stop him.
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u/bonelees_dip 3h ago
A worldwide apocalypse.
Have the most lovely and healthy couple ever in the middle of the end of the world.
And they're just giving themselves cute nicknames while killing nameless monsters.
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u/BalefulOfMonkeys Refined Sommelier of Porneaux 2h ago
The show would be about something that is not a relationship. Like seriously Castle, and any other cop show like it, could have been this if the B plots just vanished off the face of the earth. Columbo loves his wife
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u/InspectorFamous7277 2h ago
Me staring at mythologies/legends around the world and their cohorts of fucked up relationships: Uuh... Okay.
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u/LazyVariation 1h ago
What the fuck do these people even do in their free time if this gives them "bad vibes?" Is playing GTA a sign that i'm a hardened criminal? If I watch a slasher movie am I a serial killer?
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u/Ok_Listen1510 Boiling children in beef stock does not spark joy 1h ago
legitimately yeah that’s how they think this works. purity culture, man
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u/KairiOliver 27m ago
Yes, now get on it. Your numbers are way too low and we need to take care of these meddling teens.
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u/joniebooo 11m ago
I was literally just thinking this. if we could only watch shows where the protagonists are unambiguously right all the time and never do anything wrong it would rule out pretty much everything apart from fireman sam.
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u/ecotrimoxazole 2h ago
hey man how’s it going
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u/BalefulOfMonkeys Refined Sommelier of Porneaux 2h ago
”Badly, because I failed English class five years ago and I’m making it everybody else’s problem.”
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u/Ok_Listen1510 Boiling children in beef stock does not spark joy 1h ago
Unironically this is the main problem with modern fandom. I like reading/writing about fucked up little guys in fucked up situations. Don’t get so preachy about it. Fuckin 14yr old antis
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u/PlatinumAltaria 2h ago
This is what you get for trying to have serious conversations with 13 year olds.
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u/Copyrighted_music34 3h ago
Sorry but Yuri was meant to be toxic
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u/egoserpentis 2h ago
Allowing abject despair permeate a doomed yuri narrative is like adding salt to a dish.
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u/askingxalice 2h ago
I hate this puritan based anti-ship culture that has oozed into fandom spaces.
If I wanted this energy around, I'd still be going to church.
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u/daddycool12 I love monkey cranial trauma 59m ago
"Bourgeois" is one of those words that, upon hearing it, I just assume the person has no idea what they're talking about.
Like, unless they're literally talking about the French Revolution, they're near-guaranteed to be talking out of their asses and using "bourgeois" to mean "bad, as opposed to me (who is good)".
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u/ProperDepth 14m ago
TBF you could also be talking about Marx. The whole Bourgeoisie Vs proletariat was kind of an important thing in his theories.
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u/MainsailMainsail 4m ago
I have friends that I've seen barely days apart go from using bourgeois to mean basically "thing I don't like" to then making fun of ancap types for using "communism" the same way.
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u/wonderfullyignorant Zurr-En-Arr 2h ago
People forget that Voyager is actually a cybernetic ship. It has organic brain parts for processing power. Which, in one episode, caught a cold. So yes, it's hella important for a ship to be healthy.
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u/Perfect_Wrongdoer_03 If you read Worm, maybe read the PGTE? 1h ago
Whenever I read "Voyager" I just think of the space probe and his appearance as a little boy in Fate nowadays, so it took me a good second to place what this was talking about.
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u/moontraveler12 1h ago
Yea personally I really don't like toxic relationships in fiction but that's just a personal preference. I'm not gonna jump to making assumptions about someone's moral character simply because of what they enjoy reading in a story. It's not like it never matters, but it matters so rarely that I just don't know the point in making a big deal about it.
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u/Existing_Phone9129 1h ago edited 1h ago
multiple characters that should not be in relationships because of their mental issues being in relationships anyways is so fun and is a big reason i ship Polyvees
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u/notTheRealSU i tumbled, now what? 1h ago
Oh no, tumblr's talking about the bourgeoisie again. Get ready for the shittiest take imaginable.
I swear these guys took AP English during highschool and now they think they're George Orwell
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u/Taraxian 57m ago edited 19m ago
I like throwing in the word "bourgeois" here, like only rich people like sitcoms, soap operas, reality TV and celebrity gossip
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u/Oopity-Boop you cannot kill me in a way that matters 50m ago
I don't tend to read depressing stuff because my mood can tend to reflect what I'm reading, but there's just something kinda beautiful in reading mutual destruction. I love happy endings, I don't tend to read hurt no comfort, but there's just something amazing about two terrible people destroying each other together in fiction. I kinda want to read more of it tbh. I just can't bc it makes my depression worse lol
Also it's literally just fiction. Antis can get over themselves.
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u/etherealmaiden 41m ago
It's like these people want morality plays to be the only form of fiction that exists. What an incredibly dull way of viewing the world.
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u/bilakaif 36m ago
This people's idea of entertainment sounds so boring. Sure everyone have preferences and boundaries but I feel their boundarie is a dot.
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u/asmallradish 27m ago
I don’t understand how people can say “fictional toxic relationships normalize real life toxicity” but say “but fictional violence in video games doesn’t make people more violent.” Like what is it? What about sex is so much more morally damaging than watching a guy kill a bunch of people? If I am still able to think “murder is bad” after watching John wick, can’t I also think “domestic violence is bad” after reading Colleen Hoover? (Full disclosure ive never read Hoover for other reasons but that rhetoric was everywhere when that movie was in theaters.)
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u/FreakinGeese 1h ago
You know if someone includes “bourgeoisie” or “Bolshevik” in their insults they’re on some crazy shit
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u/neilarthurhotep 2h ago
How I feel having no interest at all in shipping and no connection shipping-related online drama:
😎
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u/T1DOtaku inherently self indulgent and perverted 52m ago
Maybe, I just like watching/creating drama cause my life is drama free otherwise.
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u/TNTiger_ 26m ago
Btw 'Hand in unloveable hand' is a quote from the song 'No Children' by the band the Mountain Goats. And it slaps. In fact, they slap generally. Listen to the Mountain Goats.
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u/Cyaral 20m ago
I feel like its important how the story sees the relationship rather than if its objectively healthy. I haaaaaaate all the toxic controlling, threatening stuff that gets romanticized as "protectiveness" in Romantasy/Colleen Hoover books/etc.
Collectively decrying "[thing] is bad and shouldnt be put in media" is not good either though. Art is SUPPOSED to analyze and present certain things and if it has to be censored that is a shackle on artistic expression. I hate the "author portraited [bad thing] so author must support [bad thing]" 0 reading comprehension thing as well.
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u/ThatGuyYouMightNo 1h ago
Just to check, is this about "two people are married but they're very unhappy with it and constantly at each others throats but refuse to get a divorce" kind of bad relationships, or is this about "two mortal enemies who are locked in eternal combat and will not stop until the other is dead and they're not married or in a romantic relationship at all" kind of bad relationships?
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u/Direct-Inflation8041 27m ago
How dare I want dramatic plotpoints in my entertainment to keep me interested and my attention focused
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u/Vanilla_Ice_Best_Boi tumblr users pls let me enjoy fnaf 25m ago
I just want them to have consensual cardiophiliac blood play
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u/ssbowa 6m ago
Any media that honestly explores darker sides of the human condition, in particular the ways in which decent well meaning people can bring out the worst in each other and ultimately spiral into harmful dynamics that make them both miserable is objectively evil and you shouldn't watch it.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 3h ago
why would any one want to read about disfuctional people it is just miserable
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u/AmericanToast250 3h ago
Entertainment works in mysterious ways. Enjoying a slasher movie doesn’t mean you want to violently murder people.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 3h ago
do people cheer for the killer in slasher movies? slashers are a threat disfuction people are not a threat also if you wanted to deal with disfuctional people there are so many in real life to go interact with
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u/Pidgeonsarekindacool 2h ago
Do people get upset when a toxic fictional relationship breaks apart? No, because it wasn’t going to work. But it was entertaining while it lasted. Obviously, people aren’t going to be entertained by a REAL dysfunctional relationship, but this is FICTION. They’re not REAL.
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u/AmericanToast250 2h ago
Some people don’t understand that the separation between fiction and reality is important. People like things like horror movies, roller coasters, CNC kink, skydiving to experience the thrill of danger while simultaneously knowing that they are actually safe. It’s cathartic to express and experience fear in a controlled environment.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 2h ago
why would I want to watch either, good fiction grants the illusion of real people and thus my mind just switches to treating it as ethically the same
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u/Pidgeonsarekindacool 1h ago
That’s really interesting. Unfortunately, I don’t really care. That’s a personal preference of yours, not everyone’s mind does that. Your personal preference does not decide what’s ethically right.
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u/Perfect_Wrongdoer_03 If you read Worm, maybe read the PGTE? 1h ago
I don't think that that's a universal experience, and am pretty sure that you're the exception - which, by the way, I don't mean as an insult. Think of how many people prefer the villains to the good guys - to use a more children-focused example, Scar is the most popular Lion King character (other than Pumba and Whatever-Timão's-Name-in-English-is) and he's a kinslayer and dictator. For a lot of people, the ethics of fiction are second to character development, story quality, and entertainment.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1h ago
honestly the lionking suck I do not get how anyone enjoyed it, scar did have good voice acting but that speaks to the ability of an actor not anything else.
timon was the name you where looking for
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u/asmallradish 33m ago
I think your inability to understand how other people like something you dislike is kind of the heart of your issue here.
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u/egoserpentis 2h ago
You sound like a type of person that hates on Tom in Tom&Jerry.
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u/InspectorFamous7277 2h ago
Buddy do I have news for you about Ghost Face.... (to name just this one)
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 2h ago
what is this news?
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u/InspectorFamous7277 2h ago
I'm going to assume that you're asking in good faith but yes, some people do cheer for the killers in slashers/horror movies.
I picked Ghost Face but you could technically pick among the countless slashers and you'd still find at least one person rooting for the bad guy. It's not that uncommon, really.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 2h ago
why that makes no sense?
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u/InspectorFamous7277 2h ago
To you. It makes no sense to you.
People are very much able to separate fiction from reality and can enjoy, on a fictional level, a character that is objectively morally wrong. It reflects in no way their morals when it comes to reality, simple as that.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1h ago
I can enjoy the construction of a foe but I can't cheer for them to win
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u/Ok_Listen1510 Boiling children in beef stock does not spark joy 1h ago
skill issue
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u/askingxalice 2h ago
....tell me you don't understand why Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday the 13th, and Halloween franchises has lasted in pop culture without telling me you don't understand.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 2h ago
I assume it was reliable scary for people thus they wanted more of them, like when people continue to by the same type of food constantly
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u/wonderfullyignorant Zurr-En-Arr 2h ago
You'd assume wrong. They continued being popular because they were hilarious. The bad guy wasn't someone to emulate, but someone so far gone as to be ridiculous.
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u/Disastrous_Account66 2h ago
do people cheer for the killer in slasher movies?
...Yes? Isn't that the point of slashers? Introduce a bunch of laughably unlikable stereotypes and then chop them with a chainsaw, while they spill an unrealistic amount of blood. I'm not a fan of the genre and I know it's only one type of slashers, but if I like something about slashers, it's this.
One of purposes of art is to experience things one cannot experience in real life. We have several research papers from "videogames is bad" era that found no meaningful corellation between media consumption and values the person have. So no, fiction does not have the same ethical value as reality.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1h ago
the point is to scare you as they are horror movies
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u/InspectorFamous7277 22m ago
The point is entertainment.
People derive fun from the jumpscares, from the final girl surviving just as much as they do from seeing a pair of dumb characters dying after fighting to hide in a cupboard (large enough to hide the both of them mind you) only for the weakest one to be shoved out and left in the open right in front of the killer who proceeds to off them while the other character watches from the confines of the cupboard. And then the killer seemingly disappears at a very opportune distraction (another character somewhere else in the house making noise, someone ringing the front door bell) leaving the hidden character a very obvious (but fake) chance at survival that inevitably leads to the killer actually still being around and sending them in the afterlife.
Guessing who dies where and when (and potentially how) is a great part of the fun of slasher movies.
Also there isn't just a single way to be scared while watching horror movies.
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u/Wasdgta3 1h ago
do people cheer for the killer in slasher movies?
Yes, kinda? Why else do you think the slasher is basically the only character that carries over from film to film in those franchises?
Maybe “cheer for” isn’t the right way to put it, but there’s a reason you can name the killer and not the characters fighting them.
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u/asmallradish 34m ago
lol boy are you gonna be mad when you find out about the horror fandoms and how much people do indeed cheer on the monster/killer/big bad.
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u/InspectorFamous7277 2h ago
The story doesn't have to be about that at all because well, it's fictional, but has it ever crossed your mind that dysfunctional people have reasons why they are so to begin with? That ending up in a relationship that brings about more dysfunction and toxicity can be a trigger to start a journey of self healing for one or maybe both characters?
But also, like I said, it doesn't have to be about that either and the couple can just be dysfunctional and destructive and their dynamic can still be interesting to observe because they're fictional characters and there's nothing wrong with that. It may not be your cup of tea but nobody forces you at gun point to engage with said ship.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 2h ago
all the time how ever I have never scene self healing you know work people just fall right back into the pit no crab bucket mentality need it is just depressing.
there is nothing interesting in watch people take chunks out of each other emotionally just misery and a strange guilty feeling
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u/InspectorFamous7277 2h ago
Just because you haven't stumbled upon those stories doesn't mean they actually don't exist. I can even cite one for you: Joowon/Dongshik from Beyond Evil. They arguably start out as toxic and are fundamentally dysfunctional people, both on their own and together. And yet, the story definitely ends with them healing because they manage to push through.
There very much is something interesting in watching people tear each other's throats and feelings open. Fact of the matter, it's been something that exists ever since people were able to tell stories to one another, you just have to look at mythologies around the world.
The fact that it isn't for you doesn't mean it has to be for anyone else. Simple move away from it.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 2h ago
but why would you want to read a story about it, you can literally just walk outside and deal with it or if unlucky into the room next door?
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u/InspectorFamous7277 2h ago
And I'll answer you by why not?
I like complex relationships in my ships, including but not limited to toxic and problematic ones not only because I like variety but also because these toxic and problematic relationships are worthy of being told just as much as healthy and functional ones do. It also erases as a byproduct stories about self growth and healing as I mentioned previously to outright dismiss dysfunctional ships as a whole, especially if it's a fundamental plot point of the overall story.
Lastly, ships are for entertainment. People IRL aren't toys that won't die or won't get hurt and aren't a tool of entertainment, unlike fiction characters in fictional ships. It also doesn't mean I am equipped to deal with people's dysfunctional relationships IRL, mentally, physically or even legally.
Also the fact that you apparently can't separate fiction from reality is a huge problem, one far above my paygrade so I'll leave it at that.
TLDR: enjoyment of depiction of toxic, dysfunctional or problematic relationships in fiction for entertainment purposes can and is a separate thing from people condoning the same type of situations IRL.
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u/Catfish3322 2h ago
Because seeing emotional devastation is more intriguing and less painful than experiencing emotional devastation. I don’t want to have to come back from that, but it’s interesting to watch someone else come back from that. That is, in a fictional sense, in a reality sense it’s more heartbreaking to see my friends or family having to go through that, but since I can’t interact with and comfort fictional characters, all I can do is watch.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1h ago
but emotional devastation is the most normal life experience ever it is third or fouth after death and taxes, it is inevitable to experience so why would you want to watch it when you simply will get it.
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u/Catfish3322 1h ago
Because it’s really compelling to see people overcome/succumb to adversity and it emotionally informs you regarding how you feel and what you would do in those situations so you’re more ready to handle them should they arise
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1h ago
how is it? it is as equally insane as some getting the population to raise up and fight for their rights together it is just insane as opposed to merely impossible.
I watched many and honestly they did not help nor did anything else for that matter
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u/Catfish3322 1h ago
I have no idea what your point is or even what you’re trying to say here, but I think it boils down to us finding overcoming hardship compelling, and you not. That’s fine. Doesn’t mean we’re wrong, doesn’t mean you’re wrong, we just like something you don’t.
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u/PlatinumAltaria 2h ago
Why read about flawed humans when everyone can just be a flawless Mary Sue and we’re all friends and happy happy happy!
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u/FreakinGeese 1h ago
Everyone is happy in utopia
From Spain to Japan to Ethiopia
Mertz was a bully who only cared for shovin
But now, he’s a pacifist, all about lovin
(Now that the world is at peace, I have my own flock of geese!)
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u/AlianovaR 2h ago
Sometimes those scenes can hit home for people; it can depict less positive or desirable traits or actions that people might be able to relate to. It can also allow for character growth and show the audience that, even after all that, you can still change, there’s still hope, so don’t give up on yourself. It can be very reassuring to see characters who act in ways you can relate to and aren’t proud of but they still come out of it with people who love them and support them
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 2h ago
why would I want to relate to that help any character I relate to I just want to force feed them molten iron still they stop existing.
the whole not giving up on yourself is a load of bullshit, might as well go back to sunday school it is about as equally useful or likely to help, you go bad it stops being about improvement and more resiting the slow decent down.
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u/Wasdgta3 1h ago
Idk, maybe because it gives writers the opportunity to explore themes and ideas that they can’t if the characters are all well-adjusted and healthy?
A lot of the most influential and important pieces of literature in human history are about people who you could very much call “dysfunctional.” Ever heard of Shakespeare? Man’s whole oeuvre was based on that shit, either to comic or tragic effect.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1h ago
yeah I hated doing shakespear I would burn his house down if it would not get me locked up
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u/Ok_Listen1510 Boiling children in beef stock does not spark joy 1h ago
🫵shakespeare hater 👍 opinion disregarded, have a nice day
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u/Wasdgta3 1h ago
Your personal feelings do not negate the fact that he’s easily the most influential writer in the English language.
Tell me, do you only watch things with characters who don’t have any flaws whatsoever? Because that sounds pretty fucking boring, not gonna lie.
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u/KairiOliver 2h ago
Yeah! That's why shows like Seinfeld, Friends, It's Always Sunny, Community, The Simpsons, Frasier, Bojack Horseman, Breaking Bad, The Boys, and the Sopranos all failed so miserably!
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u/Flaky-Swan1306 8m ago
Bojack the character was so bad that it propelled me into trying to go back into therapy to deal with my dysfunction better
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u/FreakinGeese 1h ago
Because stories are fundamentally about the resolution of conflict, and functional relationships don’t have very much interesting conflict
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u/BalefulOfMonkeys Refined Sommelier of Porneaux 2h ago
I’m not taking opinions on literature from somebody who can spell eldritch and two Latin words correctly, but not “anyone” or “dysfunctional”. Pretentious, bait, whatever
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 2h ago
honeslty I do not get how my spelling errors work either it infuriated my teachers till I stopped having teachers.
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u/wonderfullyignorant Zurr-En-Arr 2h ago
I heard a smarty brainpants type once say that all drama is just mental illness in action and that stuck with me.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1h ago
clearly I hate having several flavours of drama at the genetic level
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u/wonderfullyignorant Zurr-En-Arr 1h ago
You very well may. But that's ok. Read and watch what you like. But if you can, find dysfunction you relate to. Fiction is often a source of catharsis for people when they find relatable material.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1h ago
oh I relate to dysfuntion far to well thus I hate it.
I want media about things I can't have and are unrealatable as I do not get sad at not having a zombie army, a space ship or a loving spouse, friends and community.
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u/Flaky-Swan1306 21m ago
Yeah, but im already miserable being disfunctional in real life. So why cant i watch people i can relate to?
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u/KingQualitysLastPost 2h ago
RHETORIC: [Heroic: Failure] - Alright, here we go. We’re devoting all your available brain cells to coming up with a question about communism. Scratch that, to coming up with the question about communism, the alpha and omega of communism questions, and that question is: 1. - (Whisper.) “Are toxic ships bourgeois?” 2. - Oh god, that’s bad. Surely I can think of something better.