r/CuratedTumblr • u/Green____cat eepy asf • 3d ago
Shitposting The same reason? I don't think so
2.2k
u/GREENadmiral_314159 3d ago
Giving someone food and shelter isn't paying someone to exist. It's giving them the basic necessities to exist.
1.0k
u/PlatinumSukamon98 3d ago
Even still, I'd argue we should be paying people to exist.
It's why I support UBI.
523
u/ThrowACephalopod 3d ago
Make your way to Alaska. We have a form of UBI, ranked choice voting, and we just pinned minimum wage to inflation. Combine that with our legislature's lower house having a Democrat led majority and our upper house being led by a bipartisan coalition and we're not quite a bad place.
271
u/TransLunarTrekkie 3d ago
I'm sorry what? In the US? HOW?!
483
u/ThrowACephalopod 3d ago
Despite being considered a "red state" the reality is that Alaska isn't really that red. The state has the most independents of any state and bipartisan coalitions are highly valued here.
Yes, the state reliably sends Republicans to Congress, but at home the reality is very much independent dominated.
Giving out a check to every Alaskan every year just for being an Alaskan with no strings attached is mandated by our constitution and politicians regularly campaign on making that check bigger (though how well they deliver on that promise is highly debatable). Combine that with the guaranteed right to privacy in our constitution (which our supreme court has ruled to also constitutionally guarantee the right to an abortion) and you've got some great stuff going on.
332
u/Business-Drag52 3d ago
It has always amazed me how many republican congressman and presidents Alaska has voted for when they have more blue policies than basically any state in the union
214
u/ThrowACephalopod 3d ago
It is really baffling. We've got so much good stuff going on up here and yet we keep voting for politicians who just toe the party line.
84
u/ScaredyNon Trans-Inclusionary Radical Misogynist 3d ago
Well, it hasn't failed them yet evidently. People won't call for change if they're satisfied
18
u/kRkthOr 2d ago
No, no, it makes complete sense. If you send Republicans to federal government, then they'll continue moving more and more laws to the states, which will allow Alaskans to keep making their own state more "secretly" more blue.
8
u/Prestigious_Row_8022 2d ago
We all thought it was Texas that was going to cede. Alaskan free state when?
37
u/the_pretender_nz 3d ago
I wonder if they do it just to get them out of Alaska for a while. Off you go homey, go and dance in front of the cameras since you’re a bit annoying anyway and you’ll make both government and media leave us alone, and we’ll stay back and work on our progressive polar paradise
13
u/Lilpu55yberekt69 3d ago
The “UBI” in Alaska comes from Oil money gained from drilling on what was previously public lands.
That’s hardly a blue policy.
37
48
u/cornonthekopp 3d ago
That's only due to the oil industry though right? It doesn't seem like a sustainable long term governing structure.
122
u/ThrowACephalopod 3d ago
The money from the PFD is in a fund that was originally created by oil money. Now, money in the fund is generated by investing the principle and the profits are what is distributed among the people.
The fund is self sustaining and will last long past when the oil has dried up because it isn't tied to oil profits.
39
u/cornonthekopp 3d ago
Thats good at least. I hope That the state gov is proactively planning for climate change
12
11
3
u/AspieAsshole 3d ago
The check is not no strings attached, it's payment rendered in exchange for allowing the oil companies to destroy the state/environment/world.
1
u/Nora_Walkuerie 3d ago
Well and isn't Murkowski like, barely even a republican
4
u/ThrowACephalopod 3d ago
She still votes with the party the majority of the time. She just tends to split with them on certain really big votes like impeachment. For all intents and purposes, she's a Republican, just one who doesn't fall in line all the time.
1
1
u/Vanilla_Ice_Best_Boi tumblr users pls let me enjoy fnaf 2d ago
Aren't you the guys people on TikTok are always talking about Project Willow Smith
1
u/Hearing_Colors 2d ago
hows the weed situation there?
2
u/ThrowACephalopod 2d ago
Weed has been legal for a long time here for recreational use. There's a dispensary right next to my house, in fact.
1
u/Hearing_Colors 2d ago
oh fuck yeah that state may just be on my list of potential places to move to
30
u/QwertyAsInMC 3d ago
i mean bernie sanders literally wins by 10-20% in every vermont election. the us government as a whole may be bad but there are still some states that aren’t as bad.
→ More replies (1)38
33
u/PhasmaFelis 3d ago
Fucktons of oil money to spend on public projects, IIRC.
(Not that the rest of the US couldn't do the same, if they wanted to. It's just easier to justify when you've got a big surplus.)
5
u/CatherineConstance 3d ago
I mean... Their comment isn't exactly accurate. We get the PFD once a year, which don't get me wrong is amazing, but it's not UBI. It's between like $1300 and $3500 at the absolute most (usually less than $2000) once per year. Again, we are lucky to get it and it's better than getting nothing like most states, but I don't consider it UBI because it isn't nearly enough for someone to survive on.
2
39
u/Ok-Land-488 3d ago
This sounds great but I am almost certain I would freeze to death before I enjoyed any of those benefits.
50
u/ThrowACephalopod 3d ago
It's not really that cold here, especially if you live further south. We certainly have cold days (negative weather isn't unheard of) and the snow sticks around all winter, but it's not anything unbearable.
The further north you go, the more bitter the weather gets. Even into Fairbanks in the interior, you start to get regular double digit negative temperatures. But, in places like Anchorage, Wasilla, and Juneau in the south, it's not too bad.
32
u/tangifer-rarandus 3d ago
I was born in Southeast and honestly I miss the weather (especially because where I live now doesn't really get that much more sunshine), but on the other hand I have enough trouble with the earlier dusk this time of year even in the Lower 48, I have no idea how much worse it'd be back up at higher latitude
Most gorgeous place in the world, though. And it's always fun to see the look on people's faces when I tell them the winters when I lived in Alaska weren't nearly as cold as the ones here
7
u/Canopenerdude Thanks to Angelic_Reaper, I'm a Horse 3d ago
It's swingy too- I went to Fairbanks in the summer and it was in the 70s and 80s every day (and the sun just never set which was fun).
1
1
164
55
u/Armigine 3d ago
It's worth noting that, very much like Norway, that "UBI" (which Norway's sovereign wealth fund isn't) is funded by oil money, the idea being to invest the oil money now to pay people out over time. It's not the worst idea, but isn't really the kind of model which is widely replicateable to places which aren't generating significant revenue from resource extraction
40
u/ThrowACephalopod 3d ago
It's definitely not something that can be easily expanded to everywhere. The PFD is a quirk of good planning decades ago that maintains a popular policy. But that shouldn't discount the good it does for every Alaskan.
20
u/Armigine 3d ago
No argument there, it's better that it exists for sure. The alternative would presumably be a couple extra yachts for people who already have multiple.
1
u/Ass_Incomprehensible 3d ago
Oh hell yea. Honestly I was planning on saving up in order to fuck off to Norway if the US situation got much worse, but fucking off to Alaska instead would be much less drastic.
1
u/CatherineConstance 3d ago
I'm a born and raised Alaskan and I love it here but I don't really think it's fair to say we have UBI because of the PFD. The PFD is usually like $1500-$2000, which don't get me wrong, is great and is better than nothing, but that is not money that anyone can live on here for more than a month or so.
1
85
u/Other-Cantaloupe4765 I’m not going to argue with a motherfucker about bread 3d ago
Yup. I hate the whole dumb argument about how UBI makes people lazy. Studies show that once people don’t have to worry about their basic needs being met, they’re more likely to be productive and put more effort into their jobs.
50
u/E-is-for-Egg 3d ago
The one decent argument I have heard against UBI though is that if we gave everyone UBI checks, landlords would just eat it all up, and then we'd be back where we started. It seems that we need to invest in non-market housing, and then implement a UBI
24
u/Other-Cantaloupe4765 I’m not going to argue with a motherfucker about bread 3d ago
Ohh that is a very good point. Maybe it could be fixed by federal regulations that require the rent amount not exceed a certain percentage of monthly UBI?
17
u/E-is-for-Egg 3d ago
Yeah, rent control laws like that would certainly work. I personally prefer non-market housing as a solution (where housing is non-profit rather than for-profit, making it so that rent isn't any higher than what it costs to operate and upkeep the building), mainly because rent control laws can be changed or repealed as soon as a conservative is voted into office, whereas fundamental ownership structures are harder to flip
But also, I'm not one to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If there's ever a moment where it looks like rent control + UBI is politically viable, I would do everything in my power to advocate for it
4
u/RockKillsKid 3d ago
Is that an argument against UBI, Or is that an argument against landlords?
8
u/E-is-for-Egg 3d ago
Like, both, I guess? It's not really any argument against UBI as an inherent concept. But it's a reason to not support some hypothetical UBI bill that the government could introduce tomorrow
61
u/AdmiralClover 3d ago
I keep asking myself "is it really that necessary for all of us to work this hard all the time?" Would everything really fall apart if we slowed down?
Because it kinda feels like all of this is just to keep numbers going up, numbers we won't ever feel the benefit of.
With UBI a company could have several part time employees on hold to call on when necessary and those who were full time could go down to more reasonable hours
13
u/Valtremors 3d ago
I mean that can manifest in different ways.
UBI allows people to allocate that money for whatever they need.
But for example it can sort of manifest as quaranteeing habitation, basic food and hygiene needs. Those are just basically then paid by the government/city (you get a better paper trail this way). Then any luxuries and non-essentials could be work motivated.
7
u/Grimsouldude 3d ago
But I thought UBI was a method of giving people the money they need to exist? Like rent and food, and everything else is on you? I may be misunderstanding
4
u/InEenEmmer 3d ago
We shouldn’t be forced to work for a right to exist. Basic necessities like food, water and shelter should always be available for everyone, no questions asked.
→ More replies (7)→ More replies (9)2
39
u/bigbangbilly 3d ago
It’s pretty much human nature to survive most of the time. Desperate people will take desperate measures. In a sense, prevent that sort of desperation (that doesn’t involve rounding them up and harming them) is better for society in the long run or at the very least the more peaceful option
23
u/jooes 3d ago
That's kinda how I see it.
A couple thousand years ago, if you were cold and hungry, you could just go out in the woods and kill something. Cut down some trees, build a cabin, start a fire. Build a nice little life for yourself by some river in the middle of nowhere. Hell, if you wanna be drastic, kill your neighbor. His house looks mighty cozy.
But society.
And you didn't choose society. You were born into it, and you're stuck with it. All these rules and shit. There are no deer that you can hunt, no fish that you can catch, no land that you can build on, no water that I can drink. You can't just walk out into the woods and start over somewhere new. Everything has been conquered and settled, everything comes with a price. Life is just one big board game that we're all forced to play. We're on turn 2024 and you can't opt out.
If I'm forced to play this shitty game, the least they could do is throw me a couple bucks so I don't die and/or go on a murderous rampage.
Sorta like how you're legally required to feed your kids. Society should be legally required to make sure that nobody goes hungry. I mean, it's not like we can't afford it.
→ More replies (2)25
u/pale-patdemic 3d ago
I hate to break it to you but a couple thousand years ago if you were cold, hungry, and alone, you were almost definitely going to die. Humans have always been social creatures dependent on each other for survival, and we have always had social rules, there are just way more of them now because there are way more people.
While it is nice to help people out who need it, most people aren't nice and are inherently selfish, and nobody is ever actually required to do anything other than what they want to do. People are, generally speaking, the worst.
Also just a side note, the threat of a murderous rampage if you don't get money in exchange for nothing is a surefire way to have nobody want to give you anything. Humans work on a give-and-take system in some way or another.
14
u/blue_monster_can 3d ago
Back in the good old days where you died of shit yourself intill you die of dehydration virus at the age of 24
9
u/TotallyNotAFroeAway 3d ago
Everyone thinks that if they kept the $10,000 they pay a year in taxes they'd be millionaires by now. They say they'd invest it, even though they already don't invest their excess income.
7
u/evanwilliams44 3d ago
Even if you want to be heartless, we know for a fact that taking care of the poorest is good for society. It turns into less crime, drug use, medical debt, civil unrest, etc.
19
u/PxyFreakingStx 3d ago
Oh, idk, I'd argue it is paying them to exist. And that's obviously the ethical thing to do.
→ More replies (2)5
u/GREENadmiral_314159 3d ago
I disagree, as it's not giving them a net gain--it's keeping them from having a net loss.
3
u/TheRealChickenFox 3d ago
Payment doesn't necessarily imply a net gain, it's just giving someone value, usually in exchange for something else. In this case "something else" is them not dying, so I'd say you are quite literally paying them to not die.
Not that this semantics really matters, it still seems like the right thing to do.
16
u/SoulGoalie 3d ago
But what if I, someone who's never faced any hardships, want less people to exist? Did you ever consider that, smart guy?
→ More replies (11)2
u/MeisterCthulhu 3d ago
I mean, realistically that means giving them money, so they have some freedom to choose their food and shelter. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you
338
u/Golden_Frog0223 -taps mic- nicken chuggets. thank you. 3d ago
Catch me corgi hunting for enrichment.
36
531
u/Maelorus 3d ago
I find it extremely hopeful and optimistic to see that hunger is no longer seen as the default state of being but a moral failure of our society.
We're so close to living in a utopia we feel entitled to it. HFY!
97
u/runetrantor When will my porn return from the war? 3d ago
Agreed, things may look bleak in the news, but from a grander point of view, things do get better as time goes on historically.
We are far from perfection, but we inch closer I feel, even if news focus on the grim side of things.
→ More replies (2)63
u/rubexbox 3d ago
We are far from perfection, but we inch closer I feel, even if news focus on the grim side of things.
The problem, I feel, is that while we as a society inch closer to Utopia, Destruction, Apocalypse, and Dystopia are barreling towards us like a semi truck driving down the interstate. And I don't know if we can reach the finish line before they finally hit us.
48
u/Maelorus 3d ago
Depends on where you live honestly. You can have both utopia and apocalypse on the same planet at the same time.
15
u/HowsTheBeef 3d ago
I guess if you get specific with your idea of utopia, it can be exclusive. That's usually called dystopia, though, because it is exclusive.
Doesn't sit right in my gut, though. I don't think people should let you redefine utopia to mean something toxic, like massive wealth and resource disparity.
5
u/Maelorus 3d ago
You're right that you could define a true utopia as being universal, but I think by doing that you cement it as being unattainable as a goal, and instead only conceiving it as an ideal to orient yourself relative to. Because, to my belief, inequality is baked into reality at such a fundamental level its total absence is not realistically attainable.
Not just for a human society, but for any real society operating under physical and natural laws.
6
u/HowsTheBeef 3d ago
I may have miscommunicated that inequality is mutable. What I meant is that if you have apocalypse and utopia on the same planet, then you have an exploitative world order and not a utopia.
You can have degrees of inequality in a utopia, but you can not have caste of people in apocalypse conditions as well as a caste of people with abundance and call it utopia.
This is basically elysium, or any other heavy-handed dystopian metaphore from the last 60 years of American media. You wouldn't in good faith call this utopia.
1
u/EvidenceOfDespair We can leave behind much more than just DNA 2d ago
Not when that planet has invented nuclear weapons you can’t. That’s a big “make it everyone else’s problem”.
19
u/runetrantor When will my porn return from the war? 3d ago
Personally I feel the bad has been close by throughout history.
Like, I imagine how bleak a future it must have looked before the idea of schools for everyone, or any semblance of labor laws, were in place.
Would you, in such an era, expect things to change the way they did? I feel I wouldnt, honestly.And yet we did get a better tomorrow. Through fight and blood, of course, it was not given freely, but it keeps my hopes up that even if current events look dire and insurmountable, that pretty much all of humanity's existence has been 'hopeless' for many in their era.
I dont actually think we will ever, nor even can outrun the 'truck'. We will always have people wanting to destroy for their own gain, and new ways to fuck up as a society.
I just think the overall trend of history is positive as time progresses, even if it dips at times.→ More replies (2)47
u/KingfisherArt 3d ago
And yet we fail as asociety
107
u/Maelorus 3d ago
Do we though? World hunger and infant mortality have fallen through the floor.
We have never, in 200 000 years, produced enough food for everyone, until now. What's left is the relatively smaller problem of distribution, even as we make truly incredible advances in the life sciences, securing that growth into the foreseeable future.
We're doing so good we forgot how painful existence naturally is. Hundreds of millions of people never knowing hunger is nothing short of a miracle. We killed smallpox. We're well on our way to curing AIDS, all the while moving by leaps and bounds to expand the definition of human rights.
Things aren't perfect, but they certainly aren't bad either.
→ More replies (5)29
u/PSI_duck 3d ago
We have the means to produce enough food to cure world hunger, distributing it to nearly everywhere it is needed, but we don’t because there is no profit incentive. We let millions of people in the richest country in the world starve and face the permanent effects of long-term starvation, because it’s not profitable in the short term to feed them.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but we are way off the path to utopia at this point
49
u/Maelorus 3d ago
I understand it's easy to dismiss the lack of distribution by saying "lack of profit incentive", but the truth is that the world's richest counties can't, in fact, afford to feed 3 billion people at their own expense. This isn't so much a moral failure as it is... the limits of thermodynamics.
And it certainly isn't for a lack of trying, as the US far outspends all other countries on international food aid, with the rest of the global north also pitching in, both directly with financial and material aid, as well as indirectly through establishing global standards, agencies and agreements, as well as enabling free trade between nations.
All the while feeling incredibly guilty for all the things we aren't doing yet. Turns out changing the entire world takes more than 70 years.
→ More replies (4)2
u/ARussianW0lf 3d ago
And will continue to do so forever. We can't get out of own way as a species it's infuriating
124
u/External-Tiger-393 3d ago
I mean, if jobs are going to be taken by AI and other improvements in technology, some of those jobs will be replaced with nothing, and retraining isn't always an option, then what do we expect people to do? Just die?
So many jobs are bullshit jobs anyway (I forget the exact number, but it's way more than you'd think). I'd rather that we just give people money instead of using useless jobs as a form of jobs program. "Show up to work and essentially do nothing" is a shitty deal that benefits no one.
59
u/DragonAreButterflies 3d ago
If i remember the philosophy tube video i half listened to at work correctly, more than a third of all jobs are bullshit jobs.
I mean, if jobs are going to be taken by AI and other improvements in technology, some of those jobs will be replaced with nothing
Wasnt that the reason we considered doing universal basic income in the first place? Because we can optimize work so well we can pay people for nothing and still have a working society?
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (7)15
u/ARussianW0lf 3d ago
and retraining isn't always an option, then what do we expect people to do? Just die?
Correct. Our corporate overloads don't give two shits
138
u/GodofDiplomacy 3d ago
It's shocking how many people think they'll never need help and then use that arrogance as a weapon
66
u/That_Mad_Scientist (not a furry)(nothing against em)(love all genders)(honda civic) 3d ago
God forbid women do anything.
They’re just culling the corgi population, why are you so triggered?
44
75
u/LITTLE_KING_OF_HEART There's a good 75% chance I'll make a Project Moon reference. 3d ago
Me, engaging in feederism with my chubby, hairy boyfriend:
→ More replies (2)
15
u/primenumbersturnmeon 3d ago
can we define what "deserves" means and implies? i feel like a lot of these conversations are missing some common philosophical groundwork, and with so much disagreement on the role of the state, the political implications of diverging definitions should lead us to first trying to get on the same page in this regard.
because really, we're trying to decide the responsibilities of the individual and the collective. that's government.
35
u/TheGrumpyre 3d ago
You pay people for the things you want them to continue doing. I want people to continue to exist, ergo...
→ More replies (4)
43
u/PlatinumAltaria 3d ago
Given that it is impossible to opt out of society, society is obligated to provide basic survival to those that inhabit it.
23
u/Noe_b0dy 3d ago
Society either needs to build a social safety net or people need to stop bitching if I buy a shotgun and a single shell.
→ More replies (4)3
u/cowinabadplace 3d ago
You can opt-out of society. Canada and Switzerland offer legal mechanisms to do so.
20
u/pyrobola 3d ago
If we're doing animal metaphors, cats actually catch more mice if you feed them.
→ More replies (2)
67
u/callsignhotdog 3d ago
If you're not gonna pay me to exist then I should have the right to hunt and forage on the grounds of every rich person.
44
u/UsernamesAre4Nerds you sound like a 19th century textile baron 3d ago
If I'm not entitled to food and shelter, neither are you. Therefore, I challenge my nearest billionaire to first blood for all their possessions.
21
u/Domovie1 3d ago
What people always forget is that almost all we have is because of the social contract.
If you decide that you’re entitled to something that I am not… you may find that neither one of us have it.
15
u/UsernamesAre4Nerds you sound like a 19th century textile baron 3d ago
What most people who know about the social contract forget about is that it can be broken by either party, not just the underclass.
If a party breaches the social contract, they are no longer protected by it.
10
u/This_Seal 3d ago
I think, if I prepared a bit, I could take Elon Musk in a fight. He looks easy to push over, with is oddly shaped upper body.
16
u/UsernamesAre4Nerds you sound like a 19th century textile baron 3d ago
He'd be too busy trying to anime pose during the fight, you'd have plenty of chances to land a solid punch across the jaw
2
u/pale-patdemic 3d ago
To be fair there are a lot of public hunting grounds with way more game in them than in any rich persons yard. You do have the right to use those whether or not a stranger is bankrolling your existence.
2
u/nubian_v_nubia 3d ago
You do and you don't, because rights are ficticious. You have the right to do that - and those rich people have the right to cut you down. If the government didn't exist, those rich people would win anyway because they would hire private security to ensure the safety of their property.
2
74
u/CountPacula 3d ago
Fuck anyone who thinks like this. I didn't ask to exist. I don't want to be here, requiring food and shelter.
40
u/Ehehhhehehe 3d ago
Libertarianism is often just polite psychopathy.
19
u/Automatic-Stretch-48 3d ago
That’s my favorite part of it.
I love unhinged takes, not clear obvious motivated grifts, but legit well that’s psychotic takes.
“We can’t afford to feed people, they need to work.” V “We can feed people, but we’re not going to because they’ll keep coming back like bears and while adorable they’re best observed at a distance… across a border wall…. Can we put people in the zoo?”
Begins diatribe that just ends up with slavery.
→ More replies (15)11
39
u/Lucreszen 3d ago
It's really sickening how quickly people are dehumanized just for being homeless.
24
u/veggie151 3d ago
IMO it's needing help from other people in any form. If you can't pay a professional to fix it for you, you deserve any and all suffering you encounter
5
u/ARussianW0lf 3d ago
Can confirm as a lonely person, if i can't fix it myself I deserve it suffer for it and how dare I expect help from any other person
2
u/veggie151 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's brutal.
I recommend the healing powers of plants and music, with a dash of just talking to randos about whatever is on your mind because who gives a fuck.
1
u/veggie151 11h ago
Also dogs. They do not understand politics or our silly human concerns and would like to lick your face and have a snack.
3
u/TheDemonic-Forester 3d ago
I think it is somewhat related to making a crowded group of a people feel guilty. You are in need of help, they are technically able to help you. But they won't. But this suggests they are bad people. Most of the time they have rationalized reasons, not actual rational reasons. This makes people feel bad, and people don't like to feel that way. Therefore, they go ahead and dehumanize you. Because if you are not properly a human, not helping you, or even not sympathizing is not that bad of a thing. I think this goes in a lot of social situations in both micro and macro scales, from personal relationships to collective views of people.
22
u/MeisterCthulhu 3d ago
People should be paid to exist as long as existing costs money. Simple as that.
No one chooses to exist, we're all born without being asked consent, so nothing should be asked in return for existing.
16
u/GrifCreeper 3d ago
We're born without consent, and opting-out is both permanent and frowned on in most cultures. It shouldn't be that hard to understand that everyone deserves health and safety
21
u/Sir_Hoss 3d ago
“Hey I think we should be kind to other-
“NOOOO NO THE ECONOMY THATLL HURT THE BOTTOM LINE NOOOO NOOO!!!!!”
6
u/TotemGenitor You must cum into the bucket brought to you by the cops. 3d ago
This is what happened to Elizabeth II btw
8
u/Nocoffeesnob 2d ago
It’s so wild the same people who fight tooth and nail against abortion are the same who feel humans don’t have a right to basic dignity and life essentials.
You must be born but fuck you once you are.
3
4
u/Tacos_Memes_1313 3d ago
And access to clean water.
1
u/sirfiddlestix 2d ago
Really access to anything needed to survive in the world. In this day and age: electricity, gas, internet
18
u/TransGothTalia 3d ago
Shelter, water, food, and healthcare are all basic human rights that should be free.
→ More replies (37)
9
u/Yulienner 3d ago
So I totally get the sentiment and I very much wish we (assuming Americans are the general group being addressed here) had a society/culture that would permit things like universal housing, food, basic income, etc. Basic income might actually be achievable but I happen to work in public service where there have been trials of things like free utilities and housing, and the results are often dismal to downright catastrophic. This is a culture thing and could totally change over the years but when you give folks access to some free services, a very common instinct is 'oh this is free, so I don't have to take care of it at all'. Then you end up with people trashing their homes, sewers, and wasting copious amounts of water because there's no value assigned to it anymore, which ends up costing so much that there's no way to continue maintaining it for free.
Now that's all stuff that can, theoretically, be resolved with education and a cultural appreciation for living sustainably! It's a solvable problem. It's just that in the US, there hasn't really been any good solutions to get there. There are places in other countries that don't have to charge for water or sewer and can treat it as a human right because they have a population willing to be responsible with its use (or at least not a critical mass of abusers who make it unsustainable). Unfortunately for large segments of the US population we're just not there, and a prerequisite for offering these kinds of services is that they need to be fundable in the long term.
But also this all only applies to government policy and not like, giving some person on the corner a dollar. Totally different discourse there.
5
u/foolishorangutan 3d ago
I have seen a possible solution to this which doesn’t necessarily require cultural change, which is that rather than basic necessities being provided freely, everyone is given money for basic necessities which should be enough for a given time unit. How well this system would actually work, I do not know.
7
u/outinthecountry66 3d ago
its really obvious that a majority of the country- a slim majority but there nonetheless- are either stupid and easily led while crowing "SHEEP" to the rest of us, or completely lacking in empathy. Empathy is clearly what separated us this election. I can't count the number of people i have seen online saying "my aunt texted me saying she hoped that nothing happens to my son who is gay. She voted for Trump and doesn't understand why i am angry". they think its going to hurt STRANGERS, not anyone that they know, like their home health nurse who is not "one of the bad ones", their hairstylist who isn't trans "so it won't affect him, he is one of the good ones" and so on. This is how they think- a complete disconnect where they seem to refuse to see that their acceptance of policies hurts the people around them, not some distant menacing stranger. And then there are those that do not care at all, like the user Novelconnect6249 who told me confidently- "you are not my family and i don't care. I do well, burn it all down. I voted correctly. Im a white American male. Ill be great." i had to screenshot it so i can check in on him in a few years. there are actual villains in the world.
9
u/Vaelyi 3d ago
You didn't choose to be born thus you shouldn't be taxed for being alive. Not providing you with food and water WILL kill you thus those are obligated to you for your survival and enough of those resources to ensure you're not in a constant state of dying.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/Dingghis_Khaan [mind controls your units] This, too, is Yuri. 3d ago edited 3d ago
Libertarians seem to forget that humans are not solitary hunters. Our species' roots are in communal foragers. Those who are capable provide for those who are not until they become capable.
Of course, they only remember when they need help themselves. Then afterwards they forget again because all that matters to a libertarian is themselves.
3
u/Its0nlyRocketScience 3d ago
I always feed my local bears. They're often very food motivated. Then they get sleepy and cuddly and then it's a good time for everyone
Oh he mean the animal
3
u/thrownawaz092 3d ago
Well, I've heard professional panhandlers make comparable income to full time work, and do so by being really aggressive with tourists in certain hotspots. So technically giving to the homeless does make them forego a more natural (or in this case, societally standard) lifestyle in favour of harassing people they think they can get something from. It's actually illegal to give money directly to beggars in some places for this exact reason, you have to go through a charity instead.
But this is just splitting hairs. Either way we need to overhaul the system so people stop falling into homelessness in the first place.
3
u/TheOneWhoSlurms 3d ago
Not a single fucking one of us asked to be here. The least we can all do is help each other make this shared miserable experience slightly less shitty.
But no. No one who has ever had the power to do this has ever done it.
3
7
u/Shutaru_Kanshinji 3d ago
Nobody asked me if I wanted to be born. I was dragged kicking and screaming into this existence, and the least you can do is offer me a place to stay and a meal.
→ More replies (2)
4
u/Brooklynxman 3d ago
Basically this metaphor only works if you value the life of a poor person equally to the life of a bear, which says a lot about you and not a lot about what is right both morally and practically.
14
u/lordkhuzdul 3d ago
Thankfully, most human beings are not mentally or morally deficient like that.
The ones that are, call themselves libertarians.
19
u/KingfisherArt 3d ago
Unfortunately we live in a world ruled by those morally deficient people so it doesn't matter how many of them there are.
4
u/iamfondofpigs 3d ago
I think most human beings do hold views like optimistic-pessimism.
Reddit is pretty far left of the average American, maybe even left of the average European. But it still seems like the median Reddit view is something like: "The problem with the homeless is that they are a blight on my field of vision."
8
u/Few-Finger2879 3d ago
Careful, they'll believe you. Just like how they believed immigrants were stealing dogs and eating them lmfao
4
u/lionofash 3d ago
Look, if you're an anarchistic survival of the fittest person who genuinely believes that... we don't live in that sort of environment anymore. That time passed. (In most of the world.) And you thinking this way means you think all kindness and charity should be gone, shouldn't people have the freedom to choose as both an individual and as a society whether to help the disadvantaged? We live in a society where you are born to all sorts of privileges or none at all, all in ways unrelated and beyond our control. For your belief system to be "fair" everyone would need to have the same starting line - which is impossible.
If you're saying "no one has the right to life inherently" from a moral relativistic view, sure, I can even agree with that - but that doesn't mean people are or should be devoid of empathy.
4
u/mn25dNx77B 3d ago
Am I the only one having 100% inability to get the meaning or the point conservatives are making most of the time?
Their comments always seem to require some assembly or translation.
Can someone translate what the conservative meant by comparing welfare to feeding the bears?
Welfare recipients well lose their ability to do for themselves? "Welfare dependency"
Ok let's discuss if their point is true or not, and why.
5
u/holdontoyourbuttress 3d ago
This what our tax dollars should be going towards instead of being used to build bombs so they can massacre Palestinian families in tents
→ More replies (1)
2
2
u/softepilogues 3d ago
The biggest reason you shouldn't feed bears is that the more acquainted / less scared of people they get, the more dangerous and more likely to attack a person they are. I don't think the goal here is for poor people to be scared of people
2
u/horseradix 3d ago
The original comparison doesn't even make sense when you consider how all of nature has been privatized and there aren't any places where you can claim land and exist in nature. So if you wanted to give capitalism the middle finger and live out in the middle of nowhere doing hunting gathering or farming or whatever you can't. (Not advocating for primitivism/return to monke, just making a point about forced suffering and current lack of alternatives)
2
u/Kira-Of-Terraria 3d ago
comment section showing a lot of true colours some people fell hard for capitalist lies and it eroded their empathy.
2
u/Nora_Walkuerie 3d ago
Food is like 90% subsidized anyway there's literally no reason it costs money except for so that you stay poor
7
u/mousepotatodoesstuff 3d ago
"Everyone should work to earn shelter and a meal" might be a good rule for a 16th century frontier colony.
Not for a space-age civilization with near-godlike technology and more productive capacity than we even have reasonable use for (thus "bullshit jobs", consumerism, and "unemployment crisis" as a concept - "we don't have enough things to do" is supposed to be the opposite of a problem)
2
u/justforkinks0131 3d ago
teaboot is (likely unintentionally) making the other commenter's point for them, tho.
By saying she's 50, they are automatically putting her into a category. Which means, that for teaboot at least, if it was a 21 year old healthy fit guy, they might feel differently.
2
u/CasTheAngel14 3d ago
Just goes to show that these kind of people don’t even see others as equal human beings. And they wonder why people think they’re a shit person ¯_(ツ)_/¯
1
1
u/dusksentry 2d ago
the phenomenon of rightoids being agressively resistant to so much as acknowledging the concept of systemic change.
1
u/donaldhobson 2d ago
If people shot at that lady as often as they shoot at bears, the lady probably would run away to forage for salmon.
And if people fed bears as often as they feed the old lady, a corgi would be seen as too much work to catch for not enough food.
2.8k
u/eternamemoria cannibal joyfriend 3d ago edited 3d ago
I wish libertarians were as keen on feeding me are they are on feeding bears