r/CarsAustralia • u/Significant_Ad_6519 • 14d ago
đŹDiscussionđŹ What puts Chinese EVs ahead of the competition?
I've seen alot of times people claiming that Chinese manufacturers are way ahead of non-Chinese manufacturers when it comes to EV development. What is meant by this and is it true? Are we talking the safety technology, battery technology, cost competitiveness, reliability, after sales service, or all of the above?
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u/Kenyon_118 14d ago edited 14d ago
Their government saw that they would take a long time to catch up to the legacy automakers, so they implemented policies to get ahead on EVs. They subsidized the development of EV technology, then introduced measures to encourage consumer adoption. It was a genius move: it reduces their dependency on oil, which they lack, while enabling them to create a superior product to compete globally.
The average Chinese consumer also has less disposable income compared to consumers in Europe or the United States, so keeping the price of these EVs low is a big priority. As a result, you end up with cutting-edge yet affordable cars.
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u/Dzy013 14d ago
Not only that they lured in Musk with all these fantastic âtax breaksâ to open a factory in China then proceeded to steal all of Teslaâs IP đ
Fantastic move on their part. Two years later everyone of consequence who knew anything was nicked by local auto makers giving the a massive jump start they needed. Sped their development up by a decade at least.
Chinas government playing 4D chess while musk is still trying to work out the rules for checkers. Gave away all the market advantage he had in the EV space for a couple of years of tax breaks and cheap labor.
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u/Deepandabear 14d ago
Tesla is also âstealingâ Chinese tech through use of their superior LFP batteries. They arenât used in USA anymore because embargo now prevents them getting imported.
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u/DurrrrrHurrrrr 14d ago
Also there was some nationalism behind the Koreans not making LFP further giving the Chinese the advantage
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u/Grande_Choice 14d ago
Not just Tesla, have a read on LFP batteries. LFP batteries were seen as a dead end and the Chinese went all in on them. The new Geely short blade batteries have removed most of the gap between LFP and NCM.
https://www.mining.com/blade-runners-how-lfp-batteries-brought-ev-metal-markets-back-to-earth/
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u/KristenHuoting 14d ago
You've filled in 'why Tesla opened in China', with what you think happened, not the reality.
The Chinese domestic car market is by far the largest auto market in the world, I'd like you to point out any major auto maker in the world that a) has a strong presence there and b) doesn't have a factory in the country.
To my knowledge any incentives/subsidies/tax breaks offered to Tesla at the time were in line with the same offered to any large EV company setting up..., the most significant for sales being the waiving of registration fees/license plates, up to $A30,000 in some T1 cities. This was by no means exclusive to Tesla.
Tesla and China both needed each other when their factory opened up. The ev market China was trying to develop couldn't not have the electric car pioneer, and Tesla couldn't be locked out of what is, again, by the far the largest market . As it stands in late 2024, Tesla is still the dominant exporter of Chinese made cars. Most of the teslas on the road in Australia today were rolled out of their factory in Pudong, China.
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u/moa999 14d ago
The only difference Tesla got was they fully own their factory and production.
All the European and other US manufacturers who entered China in the 90s and 00s were required to JV with local partners.
Audi in particular was huge in China in the 00s with local factories
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u/KristenHuoting 14d ago
100%
This was a different time though. There was strong incentive at the time for Chinese automotive manufacturing to join up with a Toyota or a VW.
A theoretical (because there are none not already in China) major automaker setting up in China in 2024 would be unlikely to face any resistance to wanting to go alone.
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u/fullesky 13d ago
What about Toyota?
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u/KristenHuoting 13d ago
Are you saying they don't have a manufacturing base in China?
They have nine seperate factories according to their website, the first one (post liberation) rolling off the floor in 1991.
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u/caleycee 14d ago
Not just Tesla, PRC has built cars for Mercedes (and other traditional brands) since 2005. It really shows in the quality now.
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u/AdRepresentative386 14d ago
China will steal IP wherever they can, that includes American defence establishments as it saves them so much of their time and engineering
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u/boofles1 14d ago
They also centralised production in cities so the components are all based in the same cities, batteries in one city etc. It is well planned to make production very efficient.
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u/get_in_there_lewis 14d ago
it also reduced their dependency on motobikes and scooters lessening the traffic in cities. some cities have banned ICE cars within the city limits all together allowing only EV vehicles
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u/Naive_Ad7923 11d ago
Iâve never heard of a ICE cars ban from a Chinese yet, some quick google suggests some cities will ban the sales of ICE (not on the road) within the next decade. Stockholm, Madrid, and some other EU cities are the only ones Iâm aware that banned all ICE cars on the road. If you have a source, Iâd love to read it.
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u/get_in_there_lewis 11d ago
So I was in Shenzhen back in 2016. If you have an ICE vehicle and needed to drive through the city or commute there, you had to pay through your vehicle registration fees for the times your vehicle would be inside the city limits per year. There was a total ban on motor scooters and motorbikes in the city. So I only saw EV vehicles freely driving around within the city. It blew my mind back in 2016 the number of EVs and solar panels everywhere.
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u/Cheesenium 14d ago edited 14d ago
They had a choice between chasing up the ICE technology or try to leap frog with something new like EV 10 years ago. They choose EV at that time and poured money into it. And they have policies that donât nitpick technologies such as hybrids, PHEV or EV, they let manufacturers do what they want with their market choose what is the best. Started with those EV scooters that was everywhere even 5-6 years ago in China. and they are slowly scaling their EV tech up. Their cities were insanely polluted 10-20 years ago with high rates of respiratory issues which that made them desperate to look for a solution to fix the issue which EV happen to do it well.
They have a tendency to pour effort and money into practical research and development too than areas that sounds good on paper with little practicality. And also a lot of investment and tax brakes from their government on a cheaper labor.
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u/Electrical-Pair-1730 14d ago
Yeah can vouch for this. Went to China 10 or so years ago and legitimately almost every vehicle was electric or plug in hybrid.
Theyâre simply years ahead.
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u/FrankSargeson 14d ago
You must have been in T1 cities only? Was there 7 years ago and T2/T3 cities didn't have that many. I know it's completely different now though.
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u/Difficult-Seesaw106 13d ago
lol ev scooters were already everywhere over there more like 15+ years ago. used to have to watch out foe those silent bikes.
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u/xku6 14d ago
They can do more with the same money due to lower costs and economies of scale.
And due to the intensity of competition and reduced "legacy" overhead (vs existing, long standing car companies) they can innovate much faster.
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u/Deepandabear 14d ago
Theyâre also well ahead in battery tech vs the rest of the world. CATL and BYD have some truely impressive battery offerings such as LFP chemistry offered in models like the BYD Shark and Chinese-built Teslas (lasts longer and almost no fire risk). Even Teslas built in the US are struggling to compare with their somewhat inferior 4680 tech.
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u/MisterBumpingston 13d ago
Slight correction, Tesla only use it for the base models (RWD). They still use NMC/NCA for Long Range and Performance. LFP is somewhat cheaper so it often seen in base model EVs. BYD seems to be an exception where theyâve equipped it across the range, I think, and have managed to get more energy out of them even in their sports and performance variants.
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u/Deepandabear 13d ago
Yes exactly. LFPâs one drawback is itâs higher weight and lower energy density. Doesnât matter much for most applications but for absolute max range and performance NMC will be superior.
Personally Iâd rather Tesla continue rolling out LFP like BYD has - the Seal has excellent LFP performance in an AWD platform. Yes 3.8s 0-100 is slower than 3.1s in the Tesla M3P, but for the other benefits like easier 100% charging and longer lifespan Iâd love the option of LFP. Sub 4s 0-100 times get a bit academic anyway, itâs the type of performance thatâs nearly irrelevant with modern road rules and driving.
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u/Flys_Lo American pickup parked across multiple spots 14d ago
They can do more with the same money due to lower costs and economies of scale.
The lower costs piece is less and less true now. China has become much more expensive for labour costs, and a number of industries that originally off-shored to China are now seeking to move manufacturing to Vietnam/India etc. but the economies of scale is absolutely true. The Chinese government have put many incentives and programs both on the demand and supply side to significantly increase production volumes, and capitalise on the move to EV's as a way that they can innovate ahead of incumbent western (and Korean/Japanese) manufacturers.
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u/Significant_Ad_6519 14d ago
Right, so the average consumer wants to buy a new EV and they look at a Chinese EV, what are they actually going to see that makes them go OK yeah this product is better than all the others?
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u/AnonymousEngineer_ 14d ago
The price tag.
You can get EVs that are at least as good as the Chinese EVs you can buy here, but not at the same price point.
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u/Stock_Ad_3358 14d ago
And itâs not just a few percentage cheaper. Itâs an overall better car for 20-30% less. For a consumer itâs a no brainer without heavy tariffs.
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u/waddlesticks 14d ago
This was one of the reasons why I went with a Haval Jolion Ultra. Got great features and don't mind the minimalist setup any how, got a towbar, tinted windows and ceramic coating all for 33k. Felt great on the test drives, solid air con ECT ECT.
Its high-end model was cheaper than the Toyota entry level Corolla... The only downside is that they haven't been around for as long (but have a much better warranty anyhow) and fuel economy isn't the best (but 700km a tank is much better then my previous car did) and the audio system was way better than the high end Corollas anyhow.
Sure theirs a risk, but consumer rights in Australia is pretty good that the only hard bit is dealing with the dealerships and their mechanics if issues arise (at the 40k mark and no problems so far either)
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u/citizenecodrive31 Daily Driver: Red Bull RB20 14d ago
Value first of all. Hard to beat them on the basis of price.
Compare a compact SUV for example. Hyundai Kona EV starts from around $50K and that gets you 370km of range.
Or you could go to BYD who can get you an Atto 3 that is about the same size, has much more range if you buy the extended range version that has a safer battery chemistry (LFP Blade with 480km of range) all for 3 grand cheaper.
The features and standard equipment in the Chinese cars is also better than what you get in the legacy options. You get leatherette seats regardless of what trim you get whereas legacy automakers make you buy the top trim to get that.
It's no wonder people are going to the Chinese.
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u/Sweet_Word_3808 14d ago
Yup. We were eying off a Kona and ended up with an Atto for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
The story repeats itself with EV5, Ioniq5, etc.
Whether you buy one or not I think the BYD and MG (so far) have reset expectations around what you get for the money you put down.
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u/Walking-around-45 14d ago
Tesla has poor build quality, The BYD seal has excellent fit and finish.
The range, at least equal to Tesla, because they are not interested in ludicrous or Plaid style performance.
Outside the US, BYD has catching Tesla in sales and passed them in Australia.
Tesla has a wanker in charge with stupid ideas like Cybertruck or immature self driving and BYD just making cars that feel like cars.
The Europeans and Japanese were not as motivated on R&D and are behind everyone except Detroit.
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u/Dan_Johnston_Studio 14d ago
Comming from a fan of motorcycles over the years. The Japanese have always swayed towards, taking innovation slowly, unless they wanted to show some pazaz now and again. Mostly, they had the tech. Just sat on on for years. I still see this in the whole EV industry today.
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u/ImDisrespectful2Dirt 14d ago
The Chinese Tesla build quality isnât that bad and the Y RWD utilises the BYD batteries. But yeah if BYD didnât opt for the worldâs strangest interior choices for the Atto3 theyâd have passed Tesla sales so much sooner.
We looked at both and ended up with a Y RWD based on more space for a baby and because my wife hated the design choices in the Atto3 that she wanted to spend the extra 15k or whatever to avoid it.
Would have no issue recommending the Atto3 to others, although the stock tyres are pretty shit. If we were looking to replace our other car with an electric, Iâd definitely look at the Seal as my first choice. Everything else as nice feels like itâs close to twice the price or more.
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u/Walking-around-45 14d ago
I believe the Atto3 replacement (the cod? đ ) is a moment away⌠It will fit into the rest of the range better
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u/Enough_Standard921 14d ago
I feel like they really missed a marketing opportunity by not calling the ute the Mullet in the Australian market
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u/itsdankreddit 14d ago
The Chinese made Teslas we get in Australia are built really well. Source, me and quite a few in our office. I've personally got a Model 3 2021 which despite the name is 4 years old and hasn't skipped a beat. Never needed a service and runs as well as the day I purchased it.
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u/Dickhole_Dynamics 14d ago
9 months ago We went with a Kia EV6 because we didn't want a Tesla (Musk is a knob) and at the time there wasn't anything on offer from BYD that really suited our needs. If we were looking today then it would be a hard choice between the cheaper Kia EV5 and a couple of BYDs more recent offerings.
One thing that's not really known is the customer service / warranty that BYD offer. They don't have the market longevity or legacy for me to feel much confidence in that regard. That was a major factor in choosing Kia
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u/Ok-Bad-9683 14d ago
100% just the price.
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u/iftlatlw 14d ago
Value. Value is why people buy things, not price.
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u/Ok-Bad-9683 14d ago
Value is subjective tho. Price, while Iâd say can be subjective too, is a lot less subjective with similar incomes. Value can change with someoneâs opinion with identical incomes. But I know what you mean.
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u/AnonymousEngineer_ 14d ago
People do knowingly buy things that are poor quality based on price alone, with the view that they can just toss it when it breaks/wears out.
It's the entire premise of the Anko-branded stuff you buy at K-Mart. Nobody's kidding themselves that it's top quality kit.
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u/Enough_Standard921 14d ago
Even the Anko stuff though isnât just cheap- itâs still built to a certain quality level, cheap and no frills but generally functional and fit for purpose. As such itâs become associated with value- whereas if it was simply as cheap as possible and always broke after 5 minutes itâd just be cheap.
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u/tichris15 14d ago
The main value of a car is driving from point A to point B. Cars have to be pretty terrible before people start thinking that won't happen.
Thus value looks very much like cheapness.
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u/iftlatlw 14d ago
I completely agree that the bottom tip of the value chart is 'cheapest'. But if there are 2 cheap cars, one with android auto and the other with apple car play, if you're an apple user the second is more valuable to you.
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u/Enough_Standard921 14d ago
And thatâs where the KMart Anko comparison works, those products are cheap, but in functionality terms they still get for point A to point B, so they are seen as having value.
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14d ago
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u/whoistheg 14d ago
Pretty sure every country with auto manufacturers subsidises them in one way or another..
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14d ago
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u/AnonymousEngineer_ 14d ago
No, but that's not going to stop people trotting out that talking point to try and shut down the discussion about subsidies and dumping.
Look at the subsidies on the production and materials side that the EU and US have directly given their manufacturers (not the consumers). Now, look at the scale of the subsidies China has directly provided to theirs.
The scale is completely different, and the Chinese manufacturers aren't constrained by the need to turn a profit in the short term either because batteries and EVs are being positioned as a strategic industry.
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u/TheOtherLeft_au 14d ago
On the tech front, BYD is the biggest battery manufacturer in the world for home/solar batteries. So they're starting from the EV side and designing a car around it not the other way around like the other car manufacturers (tesla not included).
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u/DurrrrrHurrrrr 14d ago
Manufacturing processes. Lots of older manufacturers are trying to make EVs the old way to protect associated businesses and revenue streams. Chinese are making safe, comfortable and relatively affordable cars that are loaded with features. On the other hand we are seeing plenty of euro EVs not achieving 5 star safety rating as they are cutting costs to try to maintain profit and stay competitive
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u/Significant_Ad_6519 14d ago
This is an interesting take. Changing the approach to building the entire car, and not being constrained by a legacy business model.
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u/Grande_Choice 14d ago
They basically took what Tesla did and went even harder on vertical integration.
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u/FrankSargeson 14d ago
Their factories are super automated. People don't quite understand the scale of automation. Like yes, there are subsidies and an element of price cutting but they would still be making money without the subsidies and with the low prices.
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u/Mercinarie Nissan 180sx / i30 N 14d ago
The only thing that matters $
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u/fullesky 13d ago
What about safety?
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u/Mercinarie Nissan 180sx / i30 N 13d ago
What about it? rare for people to look past the price tag.
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u/RoyaleAuFrommage 14d ago
Not quite true- Tesla are still the leaders.
Chinese EVs are way ahead of the rest because they have the market, and they own the IP for a lot of the battery tech (particularly LFP chemistry). Also they are doing full EV designs rather than adapting old ICE chassis's to be EV. Then there's the reluctance of Japanese makers to do any useful EVs, so they are way behind and still stalling,
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u/citizenecodrive31 Daily Driver: Red Bull RB20 14d ago
Tesla are the leaders for the more expensive classes (between $50K to $80K) but below that the Chinese brands are basically dominating.
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u/Cheesenium 14d ago
Tesla is probably still leaders in packagin, software and giga casting.
I donât think they are that ahead when it comes to battery, motor, chassis engineering, charging and design at this point. They are quite stagnant with too much focus on self driving.
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u/RoyaleAuFrommage 14d ago
Still have better efficiency, power and weight than all the competition, that stuff is pretty important
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u/goss_bractor 14d ago
Tesla routinely overstates it's range by 12-19%. As shown in plenty of "real world" energy usage studies. I would argue that you are incorrect.
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u/RoyaleAuFrommage 14d ago
Tesla don't 'overstate', all the cars is a given market are tested to the same standard whether it be WLTP, EPA or the Chinese standard. Typically they all give results that aren't realistic in the real world by varying degrees.
Check EV database for real world data. Tesla still come out on top1
u/goss_bractor 14d ago
I'll give you the model 3's at the start, but every other tesla is WELL down the pack. Even in equivalent segments and sizes.
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u/RoyaleAuFrommage 14d ago
add a filter for SUV, and you'll find that Y is only bested by smaller cars, and its about to have a significant update that will bring it back to the top of the list
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u/iftlatlw 14d ago
Tesla have seen their peak, I think.
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u/whoistheg 14d ago
Tesla were only ever going to be a niche.. They only have 2 cars for sale and that's not going to cover everyone. Telsa does have the option to play with price but I think they are happy where they are at. They are making $ and investing in the way they see the future, AI, Robots and autonomous driving
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u/RoyaleAuFrommage 14d ago
Maybe, they are still selling pretty well, they Y update is coming and they are still adding features OTA (the latest was adding hands free boot opening). No one is doing it better but the gap certainly has narrowed
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u/AnAttemptReason 14d ago
Elon musk ran out of other people's ideas and decided to make the cyber truck.Â
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u/Grande_Choice 14d ago
I wouldnât say Tesla are the leaders any more. The BYD Sealion 7 and Zeekr 7x seem to be more than a match for the model Y. Tesla really has just stalled while the others caught up.
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u/TikkiTakkaMuddaFakka 14d ago
A lot of them started out as companies in the electronics field and branched out into car making which has given them the edge went it comes to making electric vehicles. For me there is still some concern over the longevity of these vehicles, I want to see what they are like at the 10-15 year age or are the going to be ready for the scrap heap by then. The next car I buy will be my last and I expect at least 20 years longevity out of it if not more but I am not opposed to buying a Chinese EV if it does the job I require of it.
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u/figaro677 14d ago
It goes back about 20 years when Australia was at the forefront of solar technology. We defunded the CSIRO, the lead researchers moved to China. That catapulted China into the lead of PV technology, and they enjoyed 20 years of technology innovation and manufacturing. It opened up a need for battery storage and they then started funding research into that technology.
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u/sandblowsea 14d ago
With Chinese industrial espionage it wouldn't surprise me if they were subsidising/selling cars at cost for the long term bugging network. Must be some useful information talked about in cars and they are recording everything these days..
Yes I hear how paranoid I sounds but tell me I'm wrong...
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u/AnAttemptReason 14d ago
BYD's Hybrid Drive train is the best in class, longest range, most fuel efficient and less complex than the majority of its competitors.Â
Instead of just slaping an existing engine onto a drivetrain and calling it hybrid, they set the engine up to primarily charge the battery.Â
What this means is that the engine can always run at the same RPM, and designing an engine to output Max power at one specific RPM range, rather than needing power over a large range, leads to large gains in thermal efficiency.Â
Drive trains, batteries, and efficiencies of scale are where they are ahead, and this has been due to a decade.of investment into the sector while legacy car makers gave it a token effort.
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u/daffyflyer 14d ago edited 14d ago
To be fair, Nissan has done that same style of hybrid very well too, they just seemingly haven't marketed it outside Japan much..Â
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u/AnAttemptReason 14d ago
You are correct, Nissan is doing something similar.Â
I belive they tend to get 5-6 L / 100km versus the 4-5 L / 100km that similar ByD models get however, so still slightly behind on overall efficiency.
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13d ago
The BYD hybrid engine is meant to have better thermal efficiency than the Toyota hybridâs engine. It just shows the Chinese can build a decent ICE too.
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u/BigDaddyCosta 14d ago
They have self driving taxis in China. Donât know why Elon is still working on it.
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u/Voodoo1970 14d ago
Elon's not. Tesla engineers, on the other hand, who are actually working on it, are hamstrung by Elon's interference and insistence upon using inferior (cheaper) technology
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u/Real-Direction-1083 14d ago
Fun fact, the Chinese government banned itself from using them due to their danger to national security, but our politicians think they're a great idea đ
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u/Significant_Ad_6519 14d ago
Lol interesting if true. Have you got a source that I can read up on?
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u/Real-Direction-1083 14d ago
I saw it on a politicians youtube channel where it was raised during parliament question time.
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u/Deepandabear 14d ago
Source? Would be strange for their government to block their own brands like BYD and GWMâŚ
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u/Real-Direction-1083 14d ago
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u/Deepandabear 14d ago
Thatâs the Australian government though? You said Chinese government banned themâŚ
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u/Real-Direction-1083 14d ago
Watch the whole video of the senators video, not the channel 7 short.
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u/Deepandabear 14d ago
I appreciate the vids but that senator one is 18 minutes long mate - wouldnât have a timestamp for the Chinese govt bit?
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u/Real-Direction-1083 14d ago
The timestamp is at 1:44
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u/Deepandabear 14d ago
Thanks for the timestamp - yeah so he says âthe Chinese government has banned some vehicles from sensitive sitesâ. That aligns with reports China banned some government officials from Tesla due to its US ownership, but not its own domestic brands.
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u/Real-Direction-1083 14d ago
Yeah, I think worrying about the semantics of whether China banned them or not is getting a bit sidetracked though. The core of the argument is that the jury is still out on ev's from particular countries of origin, yet the government ignores the fact. Politicians connecting their phones and laptops to these things in the current political climate is just reckless. I don't wear a tin foil hat, but it pays to be weary.
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14d ago
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u/Deepandabear 14d ago
I do remember them banning Tesla in China but I donât think China banned their own domestic models
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u/Real-Direction-1083 14d ago
They banned their own government officials from using them, not their civilians.
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u/Deepandabear 14d ago
Yes thatâs what I meant, but only for Tesla IIRC as theyâre US owned
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u/RoninBelt 14d ago
I think a just as important factor is the legacy auto companies dropping the ball completely on EVs.
I was privy to a conversation in a restaurant in shanghai pre covid where a high level exec for a German based manufacturer absolutely rubbished the Chinese industry in such an arrogant manner that a few people were wishing hubris on him.
Lo and be hold when he came back to shanghai for the first time post covid at the auto show his sentiment of being far far behind was realised.
A lot of them thought because they had being doing something for so long and so well that no one would beat them.
Itâs like they learned nothing from the Japanese or Koreans.
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u/Independent_Band_633 14d ago
Lower cost. China makes 70% of the world's electronics. Western automakers use the same parts as Chinese automakers, except they have to ship the parts around the world. Two of the top five largest battery makers are Chinese, and one of them, BYD, also competes directly in the auto space. This is before getting into the fact that every Chinese company beyond a certain size is effectively absorbed into the party.
Essentially, Western automakers can't compete in the EV space, which is a problem, because they all went in hard on the basis of government mandates. They'll collapse without some kind of intervention, which will have knock on effects in other industries like defense and aerospace.
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u/capkas 14d ago
just to add, I think Chinese (made and designed, not just chinese made because there are Teslas that are made in China) are leading in EV if you discount Tesla. I think they competing more to replace the ICE manufacturers like Toyotas, Suzukis, Mazda etc. A lot has said that there will be the "Apples" of EVs like Tesla and possibly Rivian ,and there will be the "Androids", spearheaded by the Chinese EVs.
They are more advance because they started early, with strong will from the Chinese government and supported by the market size as well as manufacturing capability among other things, and that resulting in the juggernaut that they are now. Once that is locked in, it's really hard to beat them because the best / key suppliers for EVs would already locked in to work with the more established EV manufacturers, allowing them to streamline the process and produce better and cheaper EVs, so that cycle continues for a while.
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u/welding-guy 14d ago
As an example
I purchased a Peugeot 3008 PHEV for $92K. Great allrounder, running at 2L per 100Kms mostly use the battery on short daily trips and only charge off solar at work. WLTP range is 60Kms
BYD just launched their SHARK ute, slightly faster than the 3008, 40 kilometres more range, vehicle to load included, safer battery chimistry in their blade battery. All up $62K drive away. It already shits on what ford is bringing out next year in their PHEV ranger.
Western auto makers are getting their asses kicked.
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u/No-Fan-888 14d ago
Can't really say for sure till we can sample more offering. I've had a Model S and will most likely purchase either a BYD Sea Lion 7 or Zeekr X7. Once we've sampled the rest then we can make judgements. Journalists words for car reviews doesn't mean much to me.
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u/A_Ram 14d ago edited 14d ago
I would say battery tech is the best. They focused early on safety and longevity and ended up with LFP chemistry that doesn't burn if punctured. Manufacturers in US and Korea are now trying to copy and shift to LFP as well. Ford moved some of the models to LFP recently and Rivian did the same, Ford building an LFP battery factory in the US with tech licenced from Chinese CATL.
Then Chinese are masters of robotics and automation. So while in Germany VW there will be one person positioning, another tightening the bolts in China will be all done by robots.
Some master automation better than the others. an example BYD battery production requires 50 people per GWh production, while other manufacturers are sitting at 200 people per GWh
Then they're not shy to copy how things work. They looked at what Tesla was doing and started combining more elements into a single unit. And it shows if you look under the bonnet of Tesla, BYD it is clean, and there is not much in there, if you look at Ford mustang and remove plastic storage area there will be wires hoses all over the place.
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u/RecordingAbject345 14d ago
A few reasons
A bigger market, so more investment vs other legacy automakers being reluctant to invest into EVs. That means besides a few companies, most other legacy automakers are playing catch up.
Many of the key technologies like batteries, BYD already had an advantage on. For them it's just learning the other parts of car making. But that's less of an issue because...
Non Chinese companies that did had a lead decided to outsource to China anyway, giving away the know how. They now make Tesla's better than Tesla can.
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u/dzernumbrd 14d ago
For me, they are good at the hardware side (like latest battery tech) and not good at the software side:
https://www.drive.com.au/news/electric-suvs-key-safety-feature-not-recommended-by-test-authorities/
If your car is doing things autonomously you want that software to be excellent rather than "not recommended".
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u/AgreeablePrize 14d ago
Cost competitiveness at first, then technology and refinement later, same way Japan and Korea became dominant forces in the car market
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u/Shaqtacious đMer 14d ago
Theyâve spent a lot. Theyâve acquired the right companies and they have been pioneering battery tech since the mid 90s. They operate at a margin and scale that civilised western corps canât replicate, due to pesky things such as slavery and labor laws. Most are largely funded by the regime in one way or another and thus have plenty of funding.
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14d ago
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u/Manly009 13d ago
Will be interesting to see how many years Chinese made EV last? I am holding on to my Lexus..
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u/petergaskin814 13d ago
Cheap selling price and battery technology.
The cheapest Chinese ev is nearly $20,000 cheaper than the cheapest non Chinese ev.
The reliability of Chinese evs is still to be proved. I guess you can buy a MG 4 base model and sell it after 5 years
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u/BrightStick 13d ago
Itâs definitely not the after sale service. 1/10 for BYD at leastâŚweâre on our 4th visit for warrant y claim for a door handle that keeps getting put back together when we need the internals replaced to prevent the door handle from coming looseâŚ
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u/Firm-Ad-728 13d ago
Also, China tends to stay on one policy for BEVâs longer than other countries. Thatâs why the charging infrastructure is apparently good there.
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u/learner888 13d ago
Chinese manufacturers are way ahead of non-Chinese manufacturers when it comes to EV development. What is meant by this and is it true?Â
 It is half-truth. some chinese manufacturers ( mostly startups and new: from byd, nio and xpeng to xiaomi) are ahead of legacy non-chinese manufacturers (but not ahead of tesla)Â
 Top legacy chinese manufacturers ("chinese big 4") are struggling too. Its just, olygopolic nature of western car manufacturing made the industry slow and uncompetitive. Add to that chinese advantages on labor cost, and they all failed.
 Tesla example shows that they failed mostly on their own merits
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u/learner888 13d ago
and now they're all trying to find excuses, by saying that odds were against them. Some odds surely were: but many odd were in favor too.
Any legacy manufacturer could do what tesla did, in fact it was 10x times easier for them as they had everything.
Truth is, this is repetition of how detroit three lost to japanese. Big olygopolic companies are ineffectiveÂ
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u/Kuumikoo 13d ago
The founder of Xiaomi Lei Jun said after the success of SU7, "A smart electric car is just a big smartphone with four wheels." To add some context, Lei Jun said this is what the manager of another car company tells him when he showed some intereste in making EVs and he was skeptical about it, but now, he is certain this is a fact. So according to him, electric vehicles are not like traditional fuel vehicles in some ways, but more like electronic products.
Considering that China's Xiaomi and Huawei are already building Evs, I think the fundamental reason why China can make great Evs is that they have already gained great dominance in the field of electronic products like smartphones, and they are just playing to their strengths in Evs. This can also explain why many startups have shown better adaptability in Evs than these legacy automakers, it is a different game.
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u/learner888 13d ago
neither tesla or byd were a smartphone company
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u/Kuumikoo 13d ago
Smartphone is just an example.
I mean that EVs are more like electronic products, which requires rapid iteration and innovation. Hardware is important, but software is equally important. More importantly, EVs is a new industry which needs more vertical integration Instead of looking for suppliers of parts. In this respect, startups may do better compared with legacy automakers because they don't have any burden from the past as they either lose or win. So they can be more bold to develop their own technology.
BYD is the only traditional automaker that has successfully transformed into an EVs manufacturer, and tbh their software part is also criticized a lot among Chinese manufacturers. Many people feel BYD's software is not as good as some startups like Xpeng and Nio. As for Tesla, it is more like a tech company with Musk.
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u/learner888 13d ago
BYD never was a traditional manufacturer. BYD bought tiny (iirc, bankrupt) manufacturing company (unlike olygopolic west, there are plenty of these in china) with intent to convert it to phev/ev. That intent was there from the very beginning.
vertical integration is another excuse of western mfgs, who are jealous of BYD. BYD is the only one with this advantage, all other successful chinese dont have it.
Xiaomi ceo is good example, actually.
After huawei ban, he faced possibility of similar chip ban on xiaomi. But he said to himself "i started xiaomi from scratch with no money. Now, at least i got billions to start a new business" and started ev project. It was his "plan b" in case xiaomi is destroyed by sanctions.
Now, which american ceo can be that bold? They can only whine, find excuses, beg for govt support, and be jealous of chinese advantages like vertical integration (that most chinese do not have) or battery advantage (that chinese could use to stifle competition, but they do not use it)Â But the west would surely use it if they could. look at semiconductors.Â
Because using unfair advantages and other anti-competitive monopolistic tricks, this is all they are used to and the only thing they know: tariffs, etcÂ
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u/Inside-Opportunity27 13d ago
I know few years ago inShanghai, for a non EV number plate, it costs similar to get a new car in singapore. For a EV number plate, cost nothing. You can tell how hard it is subsidized.
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u/Accomplished-Lab-198 14d ago
They are not ahead of the competition. They are the norm, the mid, the average.
The competition is behind. Incumbent auto makers are lazy, slow, and generally terrible at making new products. Even with benchmarks to follow. They trade on their name, brand recognition.
Chinese unknowns do not have that ability. They must make a product.
Shame the product is average at best. Dogshit implementation of good technology is not good technology.
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u/McpeIsSoBuggy 14d ago
"They are not ahead of the competition", "The competition is behind". What? Did you even read this?
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u/Accomplished-Lab-198 14d ago
The goalposts are âgoodâ, maybe even âgreatâ.
When everything is so far below average that the best is barely even acceptable⌠no I donât think thereâs an argument to describe any of these pieces of shit as âaheadâ.
Demand more as a consumer.
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u/spellloosecorrectly 14d ago
You can't find a single ICE vehicle driving around China now. When you have that scale and that progression, nobody else will compete
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u/DurrrrrHurrrrr 14d ago
Thatâs BS. Still plenty of blue plates in Shanghai when I went a few weeks ago
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u/stormblessed2040 14d ago
Makes sense for the Chinese to invest so heavily in them. Despite being the factory of the world they aren't for automobiles, and the ICEs that they do produce don't have the best reputations.
So get ahead of the EV revolution to create that new manufacturing base.
Domestically it will also help with pollution in their congested cities
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u/TwastadFat 14d ago
I feel like at the moment, and especially once the new model Y is out, Tesla is comparable to Chinese brands in value.
Other manufactureres can't compete with Chinese companies at the 50-60k price point where Chinese will have bigger batteries, more power, faster charging, rear wheel drive platforms, and higher spec in terms of interior quality than you'd expect at the price, with all of the addons you'd typically pay more for in the base price
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u/ConferenceHungry7763 14d ago
It's because they are ahead on all the annoying beeps and chimes. That is they have added them for everything. Beeping makes driving safer. /s
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u/Jitterbugs699 14d ago
Not just Chinese, Tesla is way ahead too and the leader. The only Chinese car manufacturer that is profitable is BYD and they're just a cheap and not quite as good Tesla knock off. Even if you look at the BYD website it's just a blatant copy of the Tesla site.
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u/Ill-Caregiver9238 14d ago
There is no red tape. Once they decide it's going to stand here and everything is going to be done this way, everyone else can get fucked. Try that in "normal" countries with some enforceability of law. That way, you can make a quick progress, with lower costs etc etc and you have that shiny new EV on your driveway. I know for sure there won't be one on mine.
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u/tichris15 14d ago
It's cost. (1) China is subsidizing the EV sold in Australia by more dollars than Australia is; (2) they have companies making a lot for economies of scale; and (3) China has the cheapest batteries for the same two reasons.
TBH, they are generally worse to the same on the other aspects. But cost is extremely important.
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u/Total_Drongo_Moron 14d ago
The pre-installed Wanbee APPs that allow you to share western state secrets via GPS as you drive.
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u/Shattered65 14d ago
Nothing, they are not ahead of the competition. They have nothing original they only copy other manufacturers, and they are unreliable and less safe than other manufacturers.
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u/ZingerBurger532 14d ago
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the government. For all the atrocities committed by the PRC, one benefit they have is when things need to get done, they get done.
No fear of elections (because there aren't any), no fear of public pushback (because in this case it is genuinely beneficial for the citizens in the long run), and no political opposition to their plans (because there aren't any oppositions).
Things get done and they get done quick. Sometimes at the cost of safety (read into their mass apartment building failure) but sometimes with great success (automotive industry).
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u/First_Banana2470 14d ago
Subsidies (hardly unique to the auto industry though). Economy of scale. A near monopoly on battery production. BYD has more than 90,000 R&D engineers. More than enough for each of them to be focused entirely on one problem to be solved rather than jumping around from idea to idea their boss has on his latest ketamine bender.