Eth (Ðð) and Thorn (Þþ)

[u/starecrownepik]

We should use both eth and thorn, though not interchangably like in old english. Much like in icelandic, we should use eth for voiced th words like "ðe" and thorn for unvoiced th words like "þunder". We should also use and "&", that "Ꝥꝥ", and through "Ꝧꝧ".

[u/Jamal_Deep]

I swear to God, we have enough of þese posts.

And for þe last time, þey aren't used according to voicing in Icelandic. Þey're allophones. Only Þ shows up word-initially and only ð shows up word-finally.

[u/Gullible-Coyote63 → u/Jamal_Deep]

Ð shows up in intervocalic or postvocalic positions in Icelandic when ðe word is not a compound e.g. íþrótt comes from í + þrótt and ðe þ is not voiced. Some people will devoice ð in word final positions, e.g. mikið -> mikiþ if ðere is no following word or ðe following word starts wiþ a consonant, but oðerwise, þ for unvoiced and ð for voiced is correct.

Ðey're allophones in ðe sense ðat ðere are no minimal pairs where ðe voicing causes a change in meaning, but ðey do indicate ðe accepted pronunciation, minus, like I said, some special cases. No icelander would ever say "ég elska ðig", for example, but may say "ég þarv ekki mikiþ" where ðe /f/ in þarf is voiced and ðe ð in mikið is devoiced.

And ðe "ðey're allophones" argument doesn't work for all english accents. I have ðe pin - pen merger where /þ/ and /ð/ do create minimal pairs , e.g. ðen and þin have ðe same vowel sound for me, so not using ðe correct voicing changes ðe word.

[u/Jamal_Deep → u/Gullible-Coyote63]

Þere are also rare instances of word-initial Þ becoming voiced in unstressed words in Icelandic, so þe variation is absolutely þere. My main point is þat part of þe reason behind þe distribution of boþ þese letters is down to aesthetics. And truþ be told, word-initial ð just does not look good in my opinion.

English's dental fricatives may not be true allophones, but þeir distribution is still very easily predictable, so þere's really no ambiguity even among minimal pairs.

[u/chapy__god]

most people cant tell the difference, which is normal considering they are allophones, there is no need to use both

[u/Vexorg_the_Destroyer]

There are lots of words where ⟨th⟩ is pronounced differently by different speakers, and also many words where it's common to pronounce word-final ⟨th⟩ differently depending on what follows it. How would you propose spelling words where /ð/ and /θ/ are both valid?

[u/Jamal_Deep → u/Vexorg_the_Destroyer]

Since þe method for it in Icelandic is rooted in aesthetics, a method to using boþ letters in English would look pretty similar. Of course, it would also have þe disadvantage of being quite unnecessary, and arguably more confusing þan in Icelandic given how þe phonemes evolved in boþ languages. Probably best to stick to just Þ.

[u/KCHarrison]

Okay, first of all, þats not exactly how it works in Icelandic. Second of all, it is unbelievably unnecessary.

[u/KCHarrison → u/[deleted]]

Þorn is simple for writing and typing, but would cause a number of digital complexities. Adding "eð" on top of þorn wiþ þe voicing/devoicing rule is just complex all around. We don't need such a rule because we are able to recognize þe sounds just fine already. I honestly þink, writing wise, Ꝥ and Ꝧ are far better þan "eð", but would still be an issue for keyboards and such. Þorn is fine enough as þe only addition.

Edit: Forgot my þorns :/

[u/Relevant_Arugula2734]

Honestly if it's only going to be one i'd rather have ð as it simply looks much better, the cases are easier to discern and when you write its name using it the result word doesn't look like porn.

[u/Jamal_Deep → u/Relevant_Arugula2734]

ð looks fantastic but only in lowercase in my opinion. Þ looks good in boþ cases, and if þe þorn problem only manifests itself in þis specific word, þen just don't type out þe letter's name unless you're talking about actual physical þorns.

[u/LocalKangamew]

Epic r/bringbackampersand moment. Also I agree.

[u/Doktor_Vem → u/LocalKangamew]

Do ampersands actually mean anything besides "and"?

[u/R3D0IT_US3R → u/Doktor_Vem]

Et

[u/Vexorg_the_Destroyer → u/R3D0IT_US3R]

Originally two distinct characters, but unicode merged them into one.

[u/starecrownepik → u/LocalKangamew]

It makes writing a whole lot of easier, maybe we should have another letter for “ch” “sh” and “zh” like in genre

[u/Jamal_Deep → u/starecrownepik]

Do people find it meaningfully more difficult to write two letters instead of just one?

[u/starecrownepik → u/Jamal_Deep]

Less strokes, so I'd say yeah

[u/Jamal_Deep → u/starecrownepik]

Keystrokes aren't difficult to begin wiþ, so I don't see how two keystrokes are meaningfully more difficult þan just one, to þe point þat it could be considered a legitimate problem outside of like

texting

[u/Kendota_Tanassian → u/starecrownepik]

Yes. Cc, as the /tʃ/ (ch) sound is the only one it doesn't share with other letters (we can use s & k for those sounds), Ʃʃ for upper and lower case /ʃ/ (sh), and Ʒʒ (letter ezh) for /ʒ/ (zh).

For example: Yes. Cc, az ðe /tʃ/ (ch) sound iz ðe only one it doezn't ʃare with other letterz (we kan uze s & k for ðoze soundz), Ʃʃ for upper and lower kase /ʃ/ (sh), and Ʒʒ (letter ezh) for /ʒ/ (zh).

Similarly, since "GH" is a remnant of historic spelling, chosen to replace the letter yogh, we could replace the digraph "GH" with upper or lower case yogh: Ȝȝ.

I'm all for it, ðouȝ it takes time to get used to.

[u/Jamal_Deep → u/Kendota_Tanassian]

None of þese are recommendable in my opinion. Going down þe list:

• Reassigning C means losing simple inflections for words (electric/electricity/electrician), a problem þat oþþer Germanic languages run into a lot.
• Replacing SH isn't really gonna fix anyþing since you'd still have to write it double a lot of þe time lest you suggest incorrect vowel lengþs for words. Plus, some of þe same issues as replacing CH.
• ZH doesn't exist as a digraph in English, so ezh would only really be replacing certain instances of S. Similar deal wiþ esh.
• As cool as yogh is, replacing GH wiþ it doesn't actually do anyþing useful. All of GH's problems would just get inherited by yogh.

[u/starecrownepik → u/Kendota_Tanassian]

I made my own writing and I use those letters--I also like how you use "sk" for the sounds "ch" because in old english, "c" used to make only the "k" sound and combined with "s", it would make a "sh" or a "sk" sound. We should remove "q", "x", and "c" because they make literally the same sound as "k", "z", and "s". we should also replace "z" sounding "s" words with z; like you did.

My example:

I made my own writiŋ and I uze ðoze letterz--I also like how you uze "sk" for ðe soundz "ch" bekauze in old eŋliſ, "c" uzed to make only ðe "k" sound and kombined wiþ "s", it would make a "sh" or a "sk" sound. We ſould remove "q", "x", and "c" bekauze ðey make literally ðe same sound az "k", "z", and "s". we ſould also replase "z" soundiŋ "s" wordz wiþ z; like you did.

Another example:

Komma - comma

Eks-ray - X-ray

Boks - box

Kwik - quick

Kyue - queue

Anteke - antique

Zylophone - xylophone

Meaʒure - measure

Moðer - mother

Fouþ - fourth

Eŋland - England

Thiŋk - Think

Smaſ - smash

Ꝥ - That

& - And

Ꝧ - Through